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David1616's Replies
<blockquote>In my reply earlier I gave plenty of reasons why immigration (ie not just 'blacks' a group which seems to exercise you must) has been seen generally as an advantage to the UK at least.</blockquote>
The largest minorities (Blacks and Muslims) are a huge burden to the country both financially as well as safety wise not to mention politically (riots and protests).
<blockquote>It never seems to worry you how much some whites are a burden on minorities.</blockquote>
They aren't. If they were, they would try to get away from Whites.
<blockquote>The same might be said of all those countries independent after the decline of coloniallsm. So?</blockquote>
Which WN is saying we should re-colonize Nigeria?
<blockquote>All I know is that they are not commonly held sufficiently significant to distinguish a 'race' - a notion you stlll cling to, to ultimately justify discrimination.</blockquote>
Even egalitarians admit about 15% of genetic variation is between races. Twin studies show genetics is very important in behavior. Races today behave differently which suggests differences are due to genes. Discrimination eh? When French have a French in group bias or Poles have a Polish in group bias it's perfectly OK. When Blacks do it relative to Whites it's Ok, But when Whites do it it's "racism". To call your position irrational and full of double standards would be an understatement.
<blockquote>Yes and its all their fault, eh? They ought to have been grateful for being second class citizens?</blockquote>
Why aren't Asians rioting? They were also discriminated, yet today they're more successful than Whites.
<blockquote>The 'races' that science says doesn't exist?</blockquote>
No, science doesn't say that. Our society's politics interprets it that way to conclude it doesn't exist because it needs to. And even if races didn't exist in biological sense, they exist in sociological sense. Blacks are according to the left a community.
<blockquote>Whites however provide the most prominent and far reaching examples</blockquote>
Yes because they were most successful which means they deserve credit. Everyone else besides Whites are today proud of their history of conquest. Blacks didn't conquer Whites because they were backwards. They still invaded Pygmies and stole their land. Yet you are fine with no guilt for them, but you want guilt for Whites.
<blockquote>Are you suggesting that whites invaded other countries for those country's own good? </blockquote>
No, they did it out of pride because everyone believed in conquest back then. India's economy grew more during British rule and today the most colonized African countries like S. Africa are the wealthiest, while the least colonized like Ethiopia are the poorest. Cry me a river with your "subjugation". Judging past behavior by modern standards is only applied to Whites. When everyone else did it, it's just history and nobody has guilt.
<blockquote>No-one has solved the issues of birthrates</blockquote>
Hardly anyone has tried. Government incentives in Hungary elevated births from 1.2 to 1.6. Not a insignificant margin. If combined with a change in media/entertainment incentives like conservatives propose, it would likely bring it un to at least replacement level. Secular Jews in Israel have around 2 children per woman and Israel is a rich country. It's not inevitable.
<blockquote>Also, most of the NHS money is sucked up by old people. This is well known in the UK.</blockquote>
Immigrants also get old.
<blockquote>So are you in favour of any business having the right to refuse to service to anyone for any reason?</blockquote>
Maybe, I haven't thought it trough. How did society function prior to the civil rights act of 1964? That's all I propose.
<blockquote>Your own data backs this up. You've not provided anything that says a *majority* of liberals think a specific way.</blockquote>
No it doesn't. My data just shows averages.
<blockquote>Your own data says that a minority of liberals have an 'anti-white bias'</blockquote>
No it doesn't. It says on average liberals have anti White biases.
<blockquote>I don't see conservatives talking about against Nick Fuentes, or the garbage shit that Candace Owens says. Does that make them complicit?</blockquote>
They do it all the time. Besides, main beliefs by WN are not worthy of condemnation. I don't like Funtes beliefs about forcing Christianity, but regarding race he does not have any double standards. Oh look we're at the beginning again. Name me a double standard of WN when it comes to race.
<blockquote>So you think 'wokeness' has controlled things in entertainment since post-WW2?</blockquote>
It wasn't called wokeness back then but liberals controlled the culture since the 60s.
<blockquote>How does one 'disprove' such claims? They're completely unfalsifiable. Especially concepts such as impulsivity, mood-swings, promisciousity, laziness.</blockquote>
One can measure psychological traits, psychologists do it all the time. Promiscuity is measured by sexual partners, laziness by volunteer work, etc
<blockquote>Are you suggesting minstrel performances should become socially acceptable again, and it should socially acceptable to demean black people like that?</blockquote>
If a given ethnic group in society behave significantly worse, then the other groups have every right to dislike that and to call out that behavior by making fun of it. Liberals make fun of redneck culture all the time even though it's arguably less problematic than Black culture.
<blockquote>By the way, have you looked at any criticisms, and there are many of the phenomenon of scientific racism?</blockquote>
"Scientific racism" is just a smear term for racial science liberals don't like. They don't like the truth so they come up with a term to discredit entire field of science. Modern egalitarian society HAS TO LIE about race differences because it dreads it's political consequences. The same way people critical of Lysenkosim in the Soviet Union were persecuted.
<blockquote>Who are these white nationalists that claim this regarding East Asians?</blockquote>
Mainstream WN like David Duke, Jared Taylor, Richard Spencer all acknowledge East Asians are smarter than Whites.
<blockquote>Lots of people can be wrong about things.</blockquote>
So you haven't disputed that the reasoning is sound?
<blockquote>So how are you going to achieve it then? How are you single-handedly going to stop the English world from using "racism" to describe "unwarranted" ethnic prejudice?</blockquote>
Do I need to even reply to this? I already have above. You are goalpost moving. After I owned you on the idea that "racism" is subjective and "unwarranted tribalsim" is more precise, you shifter to "how will you alone achieve this?"
<blockquote>The right-wing, or specifically the alt-right bloc you're referring to doesn't dictate how everyone else uses language.</blockquote>
The mainstream right is also tired of the word "racism" and the contexts in which it's used today. I would plausibly see them adopting "unwarranted tribalism"
<blockquote>stabber was not an immigrant. They were born in the UK to refugee parents who arrived in the early 00s.</blockquote>
That's even a worse argument for multculturalists since it suggests lack of asimilation. He is not indigenous nor White.
<blockquote>My hypothesis</blockquote>
in other words a biased opinion of a liberal. He was Black. There are good evidence suggesting Blacks might be naturally more prone to psychopathy which would explain the stabbing.
<blockquote>"Not allowed to oppose it"?</blockquote>
Yes, they are smeared, silenced, censored and legally persecuted like Sam Melia who was sentanced to prison for putting flyers against immgraion.
<blockquote>sure when I said anything like this ever.</blockquote>
Who's talking about you? The point was about liberals. They even wrote articles titled "in defense of rioting"
<blockquote>And how does the UK government persecute people against mass immigration?</blockquote>
Google Sam Melia. He was sentenced to 2 years prison for putting posters like "We will be minority in our country by 2060"
<blockquote>https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/fastest-growing-economies-in-the-world/</blockquote>
Cherry picking TWO Black countries out of more than 50 which have above average growth is not an argument that Black countries have good growth, much less than they're affluent societies which is what I asked for. Over the last 10 years Black Africa as a whole shrank by 1% (world grew by 18%) and only grew by 11% (world 112%) in the last 50 years:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=ZG-1W
<blockquote>What?</blockquote>
Again cherry picking. All except Ethiopia small countries. You have to look at Black Africa as a whole. It only grew by 0.4% from 2022 to 2023 (see link above). In any case I asked for AFFLUENT SOCITEIES, not countries which in the current year happen to have a bit better than average growth.
I see no counter arguments to my points.
<blockquote>Else why go on about it? </blockquote>
I used IQ to argue against mass immigration and blaming Whites for problems of Blacks. Also economic cost. Perfectly valid grievances. If they weren't a burden on Whites, I would not feel any negativity on them due to their intelligence.
<blockquote>another one of your unfounded theories?</blockquote>
A direct quote from conclusions on 1998 conference on race:
"Negativism to the race concept which became apparent during the last decades, in many respects might be explained by the psychological shock which all progressive humanity had felt in the epoch of Hitlerism"
<blockquote>influence the IQ of a child to a great extent</blockquote>
How much is "great extent"? 30%, 40%
Black White IQ adopted environment
https://reasonwithoutrestraint.com/quantifying-the-genetic-component-of-the-black-white-iq-gap/#Black_and_white_children_adopted_by_white_families
Study on Finnish twins finds genetics contribute more than shared environment
https://t.co/JNDYdgNLS3
Almost zero input of family environment on IQ in adulthood.
https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/qndj6
Sex crimes more connected to genes than shared environment
https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/44/2/713/753089?login=false
<blockquote>Why would the hatred of other races be just mere 'resentment'?</blockquote>
Because of their behavior. Make a disnction between irrational hatred and legit resentment.
<blockquote>To keep you seeming racist in using this factor to discriminate only against blacks.</blockquote>
If stupid and violent Whites had an obvious visible tell tale that they're likely stupid and violent, I would not oppose using that external sing to be used so people can protect themselves. Also separation into smart and stupid people in a country has never took place and is unpractical (you could have to children one smart and one stupid), while ethnic separation can work just fine.
<blockquote>If you suddenly decided to control for an increased amount of mixed race people in assessing black IQ that is goalpost moving.</blockquote>
How so? Your claim was that Black and White IQ has narrowed. If Blacks just became more White it hasn't narrowed.
<blockquote>Absolutely; but not to articulate hate, intimidation and to offer discrimination. Even though one might try and reinterpret hate as just 'resentment'.</blockquote>
Yet you can't distinguish "hate" and legit "resentment" when confronted. Any White intergroup preference is lapelled "hate". Not so with any other group. Everyone else is allowed intergroup preference except Whites.
<blockquote>I will admit that the Capital insurrection specifically was not about race.</blockquote>
So you admit you can't name a single double standard of WN when it comes to race? Yet you still see them as evil.
<blockquote>Also given that there is no such thing as biological 'race' or 'racial purity' it is hypocritical to declare superiority to other groups when one is essentially the same to them in all but superficial detail.</blockquote>
Equality of races has never been proven. All evidence suggest differences.(intelligence, crime rates, work ethic, life success...etc)
<blockquote>This looks like 'you gave one example but I want a second'</blockquote>
Dude, YOU YOURSEL just admitted your own example does not meet my original demand. I mean this is just laughable. Name me a double standard of WN when it comes to race or else admit WN aren't evil - at least when it comes to their principles.
<blockquote>when biologically speaking there is no such thing, racial purity either. </blockquote>
Not true. There are differences between the races even egalitarians admit it. And even if they weren't, nobody would say Poles don't have a right to intergroup preference relative to Russians just because there might not be any differences between Poles and Russians genetically.
<blockquote>You have yourself suggested that hate can merely be 'resentment'. I simply noted that this excuse goes down badly in the legal system.</blockquote>
Yes if you stab someone. I advocate political resentment expressed thought the ballot box
<blockquote>White discrimination and privilege has been a burden on blacks since evermore.</blockquote>
No it hasn't. If it had, Blacks would have demanded separation. Discrimination against Blacks was a result of their behavior (why wasn't discrimination against Asians so severe?) and even it wasn't, Whites don't owe anyone to not discriminate. If you don't like White behavior, don't live with them.
<blockquote>it is widely accepted how reliant the UK is for immigrants to fill low paid jobs and in the social care sector and NH. </blockquote>
No it's not "widely accepted". It's a desperate leftist talking point to deter legit resentment against minorities. Minorities tend to cost the government more than what they contribute.
<blockquote>"Existing evidence shows that public opinion is divided when it comes to migration. </blockquote>
End political correctness on behalf of the media in reporting minority crime and budgetary cost and see then. Also end school "anti racist" indoctrination.
<blockquote>is there any area of the USA you are barred from living?"</blockquote>
How is this evasion? Blacks also aren't barred. I propose no double standard. Both should be able to exclude.
<blockquote>They claim to be patriots and support the police, the constitution and rule of law.</blockquote>
Capitol trespassing was an INCIDENT, not a political position. And why am I even debating this? My OP clearly said name a double standard when it comes to RACE.
<blockquote>As already shown the UN also makes similar claims as have other bodies such as Barnardos etc.</blockquote>
Tell me about the study and the data behind it. Did it control for Black behavior? If not, it's not evidence of injustice against Blacks as a whole
<blockquote>Chinese immigrants tend to be richer and well-educated than the average immigrant from Pakistan or Syria.</blockquote>
Bingo. My point exactly. Did you just admit the problems with Pakistanis and Syrians are due to behavior or Pakistanis and Syrians?
<blockquote>However, there are absolutely issues with Chinese interference with universities regarding issues the CCP don't like on UK campuses. It's more of a problem in Canada and Australia</blockquote>
Nothing to do with Chinese genetics or culture.
<blockquote>I see you are now more and more avoiding 'race' lol</blockquote>
Um no. The logic applies to both ethnicities and meta ethnicities (races).
<blockquote>'Certain ethnic groups' - Whites (for instance) have a history of wars, colonialism, exploitation </blockquote>
Almost everyone practiced conquest during conquest ethic and before modern international law (which whites created). Only Whites are today blamed for it because they are the only self critical people. There is more evidence colonialism at the end helped the third world than the reverse. Nobody would say Turks or Japanese today don't have a right to keep their country Turkish or Japanese because of Ottoman empire or WW2. More anti White standards.
<blockquote>As long as the essential differences are so small then there is no essential biological distinction, </blockquote>
I disagree race is just a social construct, but let's set that aside...How do you know that these "small" differences aren't enough to make statistical differences in key psychological propensities like intelligence, consciensousness, agreeableness and anti social behavior? Different races today exhibit those differences. In any case even there aren't any important differences doesn't mean mixing people will cause problems. There are many examples of multiethnic societies having problems. Just look at Blacks in America - still rioting after 400 years and 60 years of civil rights. Even Czechs and Slovaks separated and they are much less different that Whites and Blacks.
<blockquote>And even if this fresh statement is correct, is it right to discriminate against the poor? Come to that what has it do with denying people the right to marry as they choose?</blockquote>
If a given ethnic group fails to build peace prosperity anywhere they live, it's a perfectly valid argument to want to keep them out of your countries. When did I propose making interracial marriage illegal? I argued against it's celebration.
<blockquote>As a biological fact, no</blockquote>
Then you are wrong. As long as ethnic groups and populations genetically differ from each other (and they do) race exists.
Mass immigration and minority/immigrant burden on the country is not misinformation. The government persecutes people who advocate against mass immigration. Minorities take more from the government and commit more crime. This was the cause of riots.
<blockquote>In which case the alleged hatred towards whites by blacks, often condemned on this board is justified given (for instance) the institutional racism I evidenced yesterday. </blockquote>
No it isn't because Whites don't oppress Blacks. Even if "institutional racism" was real instead of just being a lie invented by liberals to make Whites feel sorry for minorities since they're such an astronomical burden on society, it wouldn't make it justified. If you don't like how Whites treat you, don't live with Whites. The Chinese don't have a right to move to Japan and hate Japanese for discriminating aginst them. We have countries for a reason.
<blockquote>Unfortunately a good number of racists and their ilk claim the truth in the event is just propaganda and fake news, even when it come from reputable sources in a fingers in the ears syndrome. As I have discovered on this board.</blockquote>
So what isn't true? Minority crime? economic burden? demographic change? Favoritism to minorities?
<blockquote>Glad to see you identify yourself so precisely. There seems a touch of guilt here too, which is welcome.</blockquote>
Nice dodge of the argument. Thanks for admitting you don't have a comeback.
<blockquote>This is different from your original "no examples of affluent Black or brown societies in the world." to which my answer is correct.</blockquote>
LOL Those countries you listed are not affluent societies. Having an above average GDP growth in one year is not achieving affluence. And you don't dispute that Africa AS A WHOLE is not growing and has not grown decently by any standards. It is the slowest developing continent.
<blockquote>And the NHS relies on immigration to fill many SKILLED spots.</blockquote>
And how much do immigrants COST the NHS? Also immigration would not be needed if the government and the media instead of celebrating diversity encouraged natives have more children. That way would could kill two birds with one stone. Less economic cost of immigrants and more workers to fill jobs.
<blockquote>Are you supposing that if the percentage of black people in the USA and UK was stuck at 5%, say, you would not be making any arguments like this? You wouldn't be pointing out their overrepresentation in crime data?</blockquote>
Yes I probably would. What's your point? Both the burden of current minorities is a legit argument as well as their immigration.
<blockquote>Should we allow people to refuse service to men?</blockquote>
Maybe. If some business determines that male customers tend to cause them problems, they shouldn't be prohibited from making that decision. But otherwise like I said, racially separated or segregated society works just fine. Sex one doesn't.