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David1616's Replies
<blockquote>Don't be absurd. China is a much more successful country than Syria. A Chinese person arriving via a student program officially is going to be clearly of a much better background than a Syrian who treks through Europe to get to the UK.</blockquote>
And how do you know China being more successful than Syria isn't due to race? China in the 1980s was poorer than Black Africa yet it it's IQ was much higher than 70.
<blockquote>Any evidence that Saudi Arabia "sends their betters" specifically? </blockquote>
You claimed Saudis send good students as evidence they are smart people in general. YOu have to prove this isn't due to immigraion selection.
<blockquote>Do you have any data that suggests that Middle-Eastern students in universities are more of a problem than Chinese students?</blockquote>
You started to talk about students. I am talking about people in general.
<blockquote>Not even if excluded from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? </blockquote>
Who today is against brown people having their own countries pusuing their happiness there?
<blockquote>Or change the system, in the US say with Lincoln's help. This is just a version of the 'why don't your lot just back home where you came from?' threat.</blockquote>
Sorry I see absolutely no counter argument here...Plese provide one or stop wasting my time. Don't argue for the sake of arguing.
<blockquote>And on this board we are often told that whites are apparently the ones oppressed, being 'second class citizens in their own country' etc etc. So, off you go.</blockquote>
How is losing your homeland to worse behaving foreigners while being censored and demonized if you complain about it not oppression?
<blockquote>Contentious this and just shows how dated your views have become</blockquote>
Not a counter argument against our specific context here. In any case, if society wasn't being lied to about race, most of people would still agree with me.
<blockquote>I just read what they wrote in the constitution.</blockquote>
Obvviously out of context
<blockquote>Those who condemn the overwhelming role of whites in the slave trade (away from capture) also condemn the current repression of Islamic theocracies, especially against women.I know, since I did just recently on this very board. </blockquote>
No, actually plenty (if not most) of leftist excuse Islamist behavior and call condemnation "Islamophobia". They also apply moral relativism to indigenous tribes. My point stands
<blockquote>A distinction acknowledged all </blockquote>
Check out a TV show called Roots. Whites are portrayed capturing the slaves. Chekc out Micheal Moore's very popular "Bowling for Columbine"...the same thing
<blockquote>along but which does not excuse the guilt and culpability for the white-dominance in the trade</blockquote>
It does if it was legal back then and wasn't seen as immoral by almost anyone.
<blockquote>rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – they have made substantial net contributions to its public finances</blockquote>
Show data for all immigrants not just recently arrived and their children and their LONG TERM contribution. Ethnic minorities in the UK take more than they give.
https://i.postimg.cc/6q1DMjWK/20230721-142956.jpg
(the source is in the image)
<blockquote>I have already quoted the contribution made by immigrants to the UK exchequer which is positive. Please pay attention.</blockquote>
"immigrants". Show me for all ethnic minorities. Immigration is a LONG TERM thing. How do their children do?
Immigration costs Netherlands 17 billion per year
https://unherd.com/thepost/dutch-study-immigration-costs-state-e17-billion-per-year/
non-Western migrants perform worse by a considerable measure
https://fm.dk/udgivelser/2021/oktober/oekonomisk-analyse-indvandreres-nettobidrag-til-de-offentlige-finanser-i-2018/
The charts show similar employment and earnings between EEA and natives while refugees and migrants from Pakistan/Turkey show negative contributions
https://t.co/jI7OPGyrHN
A report for Sweden estimated that the net tax cost for migrants and migrants' relatives amounts to an average of $10bn per year.
The net tax cost is on average 2.38% of GDP
https://t.co/ARvLA07f6H
In Finland, the average Iraqi migrant (aged 20-24) costs €844k if they choose to have children, costing €1.27 million more than the average Finnish-born family
Worse still, a single Somali immigrant costs the Finnish state almost €1 million
https://www.suomenperusta.fi/content/uploads/2019/03/Summary_AsylumSeekers_lifecycle_effects.pdf
Non EU immigrants cost more than EU immigrants
https://t.co/BdK1Lq6Tyj
"In a 2017–2021 study, Black men received sentences 13.4% longer than white men. ail admissions: Black people are admitted to jail at a higher rate than white or Hispanic people. In 2019, Black people were admitted to jail at least double the rate of white or Hispanic people in some counties. Length of stay: Black people spend longer in jail. Lawyers: Lawyers are less likely to take on clients with Black-sounding names"
Control for crime rates, repeat offenders, court room behavior, IQ, SES (the ability to afford good layers). All of things you listed could be explained by behavior differences. I've linked you a META ANALYSIS (a study of all studies) showing CJS is NOT racist.
"Once again: are you really saying that Blacks are not discriminated against?"
Relative to their behavior, probably not. Blacks as early as 1890 committed much more crime and were 3.5 times more likely to be in prison for murder.
"And there are WN alive who hypocritically supported apartheid in SA."
That was pragmatic to avoid disastrous Black rule. Show me a WN who supports denying Blacks sovereignty today.
"BUT the point is, still that the difference are not enough to determine separate 'races' -despite how it suits those with prejudices to prefer it so."
Call them populations, genetic clusters, whatever you like. In the end, I don't care about the term "race". The point is ethnic groups are on average different.
"Hate definItions in the UK: Hate incident: An incident that is thought to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on disability, race, religion, gender identity, or sexual orientation. Hate crime: A hate incident that crosses the line of criminality. Hate speech: Public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation."
I still see no distinguish between legit ethnic grievances and "irrational hate speech".
"That the supposed 'hatred of whites' often referred to on this board is not similarly downplayed show the double standards on the right you are always on the look out for."
The difference anti White hatred is that it's based on LIES and FALSE PREMISES or at least decontextualized illegitimate grievances ("White privilege", "Systemic racism", "Slavery", "colonization", "Jim Crow"). If someone just quotes stats of White crime and advocates Whites and Blacks should live separately, I would not consider that "hate". You accuse me of "hate" when I do these things for non Whites.
"I am not aware of any whites for just saying this. Perhaps you can show some before we play his game? It sounds like a presumption convenient to your bias."
Jared Taylor. Deplatformed, smeared, censored, lost his business. Yet unapologetic Black advocates like Ibram X Kendi are glorified. Taylor wants even les for Whites than Kendi wants for Blacks.
"The insurrection was a political act from 'patriots' and those who value the law. But you have been told this"
Why am I even debating this? Name a prominent WN who supported Jan. 6.
<blockquote>Er... some Arab leaders have expressed guilt and regret over their involvement in the African slave trade, including Muammar Gaddafi: In 2010, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi apologized for Arab involvement in the African slave trade, saying "I regret and I am ashamed when we remember these practices"</blockquote>
Ghadaffi is just one leader. He embraced Afrocentrism out of his political strategic reasons. Blacks today don't hate Arabs and demand reparations from them.
<blockquote>but then again they didn't run most of the trade beyond capture. Based on that fact, one would expect White guilt ought to be proportionately greater</blockquote>
How is BUYING someone legally in a society where nobody sees slavery as immoral worse than CAPTURING him?
<blockquote>And, if one is arguing that whites are generally superior to every other ethnic group, then why should they not be looked at to reflect some moral superiority?</blockquote>
Current society does not consider Whites superior and is vehemently against any such notions. Yet it holds Whites to higher standards as if they were superior. This is unfair to Whites. Pick one, you can't have both.
<blockquote>Yet here you are, suggesting that they can be easily identified, conveniently for you of course, in some ethnic groups...</blockquote>
Yes they can as long as external appearance (race) is strongly correlated with behavior. Within race it's more difficult.
<blockquote>there will be discrimination against worse behaving visible ethnic groups.</blockquote>
I said ethnic groups, not some people in fringe political movements. If you want to discriminate against a guy with a painted face wearing a giant Viking hat who storms congress, that's fine by me.
<blockquote>Reviews by Flynn and Dickens,</blockquote>
Flynn effect is not g loaded. It's just people (of all races) eventually getting better at taking test because they have more experience with them.
<blockquote>is it right to discriminate against those one perceive as less intelligent on that basis? </blockquote>
Yes if you are importing people from other countries with lower intelligence.
<blockquote>In which case why don't we prefer Asians and the Chinese to those (in comparison) stupid whites?</blockquote>
We already do. Asians make more money than Whites. Economic differences are only a problem when Whites do better than someone else, not when someone else does better than Whites. A bias against Whites.
<blockquote>But they don't assume at the start that blacks are more stupid to justify exclusion; </blockquote>
I never supported denying all Blacks employee opportunities before giving them IQ test. I just oppose giving them a leg up at the expense of Whites (DEI)
<blockquote>Please see earlier when I gave the UK definitions of types of hate - which are clear enough for the courts and me. Those convicted are for hate and not for 'grievances'</blockquote>
Where did you specifically distinguish raising legit ethnic grievances and "irrational hate"? Please tell me again how to distinguish the two and don't jus say "the law does it".
<blockquote>It is when just based on 'race' which is a scientifically discredited notion.</blockquote>
Even if race raelly was a social construct (which I DO NOT concede) the argument in this context would still be valid. Replace race with ethnicity. If ethnic Poles would be pouring in Slovakia, replacing the ethnic Slovaks with immigration and high births, would Slovaks have a legit grievance to oppose this? How would they raise their reservations without being accused of "hate"?
<blockquote>What is legit is the resentment against the behaviour, not the 'race' which you and your ilk focus on.</blockquote>
If there is a strong correlation between race and behavior, and the government is importing that ethic group, would it not make sense to oppose importing that ethnic group? Or to condemn that ethic group's culture which is the cause of that behavior? How would you distinguish that from "hate"?
<blockquote>You are doing that thing again, using reputable science (genes) with bad ('race') to justify prejudice.</blockquote>
I asked you "Show me where science has debunked a possibility that genetics could be the cause of racial differences in behavior" You deliberately misquoted me cutting out the part where I made a challenge to you. Either show it to me, or admit you don't have it and thus don't know that race could not be cause of behavior differences.
<blockquote>the overall contribution to the UK economy by immigrants</blockquote>
No, you just lited the benefits side and not the COST side. And also you have to show the overall contribution of all minorities. Immigrants have children and their children might not be contributive.
<blockquote>nationalists which stoked the flames of the recent riots they do not, as a rule use your careful justifications and are very unsubtle (and false)</blockquote>
So you are saying minoritiy crime, welfare use, demographic change, less free speech - all that are not the cause of White working class disatisfaction?
<blockquote>"cower inside immigration centres while the white add to the fires.".</blockquote>
If it wasn't government who is needlessly destroying the country with needless immigration of bad behaving ethinc groups, this would not have happened.
<blockquote>The counter argument is that many blacks are UK nationals and that immigrants are often fleeing terrible conditions when they come here only to face aggression, misinformation-fuelled violence and discrimination.</blockquote>
The point was that if a given ethnic group does not want to get away from their alleged oppressors that they are not really oppressed by them. Can you not see the logic?
<blockquote>because your discrimination appears to be against blacks </blockquote>
If I was just "racist" why wouldn't I also have "prejudice" against East Asians and high caste Hindus? They also aren't White.
<blockquote> Your prejudices against blacks</blockquote>
Prejudice is PRE-judging. Judging a race on DATA of how they tend to behave in NOT prejudice
<blockquote>Are those small and often vexed differences enough to discriminate against a whole ethnic group?</blockquote>
Sol now you're backing up and admitting differences exist? Yes if the difference is in the brain and you are deciding weather or not to let many of them in the country
<blockquote>Its just a shame that so far you have been unable to show that, overall in the UK at least this just is not the case.</blockquote>
What is not the case? That Blacks and Pakistanis in the UK are poorer than Whites? That they are poorer in Pakistan or Africa?
<blockquote>Or send them all back home on the basis of a few bad apples? I know. Stereotyping noted.</blockquote>
Never advocated repatriations of citizens, just immigration selection. Straw man noted.
<blockquote>Whitewashng noted.</blockquote>
A paper by professional economists showing more colonized parts of Africa are wealthier:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w18162.pdf
Thomas Sowell a Black economist thinks colonialism ended up helping Africa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nD5ftx4Ii0&list=PLnTI9gjX40k-2C4MYyqbX1fZ3FDMr5eoH&index=65
(this is from a book of Thomas Sowell)
<blockquote>Yeah, I know, all Woke propaganda again...</blockquote>
Yes. This exact article was TOTALLY DIFFERENT just 10 years ago before wokeness. Tell me which studies were done to inquire weather race differences in the brain exist and what data came out strongly suggesting they don't'.
<blockquote>Modern biological science does not consider 'race' is a thing</blockquote>
Yes, that's why leftist evolutionarily biologists like Dawkins say the idea race is a social construct is NONSENSE
<blockquote>In recent events more precisely the misinformation and rabble rousing against them</blockquote>.
You said culture is the reason Asians don't riot while Blacks and Muslims do. You admitted rioting is their own fault
<blockquote>You asked "Why aren't Asians rioting?" And yet they do.</blockquote>
I meant Asians in America who were also historically discriminated. Indians in the UK also don't riot. Indians in the UK seem to be disproportionately from higher castes.
"Whether or not apartheid, an implication inevitably behind your views, is moral or desirable is another question."
I never advocated apartheid. Freedom of association (end anti discrimination laws) and splitting the country in half
"Morality is not a word one readily associates with sometimes violent racists."
BLM activists and Antifa are also often violent. They unlike the Alt right have plenty of double standards
"This was in connection with your "Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Native Americans are all hypocrites for having intergroup preference. But then WN definitely do as well."
No WN ever called those hypocrites for having it. They only demanded intergroup preference for Whites.
"You first imply that discrimination is only alleged by dishonest blacks. Now when I show actual cases you still deny the obvious. "
It's called having more than one layer of defense against your argument. I don't buy discrimination, but even if it existed, Blacks wouldn't be collectively victims (which is what the left claims) unless it was more relative to their behavior.
"Indeed; which is why the white insurrection in the US and rioting in the UK and racism generally can be comdemned."
A dodge. Whites one the aggregate behave much better than Blacks both in the UKS and UK. Jan 6 as well as UK riots wouldn't have happened if those countries weren't importing bad behaving ethnic groups.
"Like thinking someone must be lying?"
The burden of proof is not on me. If you say they are discriminated, you have to prove they indeed are and not just taught to see discrimination where none exists like the left teaches them.
"Unlike the idea of whites suffering or being discriminated under multi-culturalism"
So more crime, more riots, higher taxes, less freedom and less political power is not a legit grievance?
<blockquote>The behavioural differences down to income and education within their societies and not race.</blockquote>
You don't know differences in education and income aren't due to race. Besides, the context was If racism is the cause of Black/Muslim communities problems in Europe ie. behavior so I don't even have to prove genetic contribution here.
<blockquote>On aggregate the average Pakistani is likely much more prone to crime on the basis that they're much poorer and less educated (or the ones that come to the UK are) in comparison to Chinese people coming here to study.</blockquote>
You don't know that it's only due to their education and that their lack of education isn't due to their genes. Pakistanis in the UK have a very high degree of incest and cousin inbreeding. This is known to lower IQ. And even if we knew it's not due to genes, but due to culture only, this cultural difference and education level difference would be a valid argument to keep out Pakistanis (as well as blame them for their bad culture) and favor Chinese which was the context of the debate
<blockquote>Any evidence of any serious problems with Saudi students (who tend to be similarly well-off)?</blockquote>
Immigration selection IQ. Some countries send their better, some send their average, some send their worst. How would Saudi Arabia do without oil? Their average IQ is low.
<blockquote>A Muslim posting a similar sticker campaign with loaded comments would also likely be arrested in the UK for that.</blockquote>
So a Muslim saying "We Pakistanis will be minority in Pakistan" would be arrested? Or saying "Demographic change is good"? A Pakistani saying "Whites take more from the government and commit more crime" would be censored, smeared or arrested?
<blockquote>Why hasn't Nigel Farage been arrested?</blockquote>
Nigel Farage has been de-banked. He has been censored, smeared and demonized
But Nigel Farage doesn't even talk about core issues like race and genetic contribution to behavior. He isn't even a real ethno nationalist, just a culturalist. He even virtue signals how immigrants from Eastern Europe are worse than those form third world (not true) so he won't be called a racist.
<blockquote>"Unwarranted" is in itself a value judgement. Someone decides whether or not an action or behavior is warranted or unwarranted. You can't get away from this.</blockquote>
Not in situations that are called "racist" today. It's hard to argue not letting in an unknown young Black male in the building in the middle of the night is "unwarranted tribalism". Besides, the term could be even more precisely defined in dictionaries and institutions, like "racism" is (very badly) today.
<blockquote>Some instances of them taking up this pointless fight.</blockquote>
So you don't think mainstream conservative culture warriors like Matt Walsh are not tired of the word "racism" and the situations it's used?
<blockquote>Shrinks don't psychanalyse people's height. They make judgements and recommendations about individuals they are counselling and trying to help.</blockquote>
So now you deny all the psychological data on race differences?
<blockquote>All southerners are rednecks?</blockquote>
Ok maybe I should have said only rednecks and rural Whites. The point is there is no difference. But only one of those are see as immoral.
<blockquote>People shit on and criticise urban gangster culture all the time.</blockquote>
Not in the mainstream liberal popular culture circles. It's a bit of taboo.
<blockquote>I haven't spent any substantial time looking for or against any of this.</blockquote>
Then how do you know it's pseudoscience?
<blockquote>There isn't a single black culture.</blockquote>
There kind of is.
<blockquote>Your own data doesn't show the majority having an anti-white bias. Your own data is the argument against it.</blockquote>
Then show me your data majority don't.
<blockquote>So "just trust me bro" levels of reasoning.</blockquote>
Oh come on man. Good reasons to think this. And you asked me for my opinion. Never said I could prove it 100%
<blockquote>During one of his most recent rants, Fuentes said in part, “There is an occult element at the highest levels of society, and specifically among the Jews.”
He wants me dead. Thoughts on that?</blockquote>
Never said you have to like Fuentes. Where is there a double standard when it come to race in America?
<blockquote>I have no idea</blockquote>
I do have a very good idea. Conservative culture, the belief they are the chosen people, demographic treat from Muslims or minorities. All those could be applied to West Europeans and White Americans.
<blockquote>Birth rates are dropping almost everywhere, even in African countries.</blockquote>
In third world countries they are expected to drop as they develop. They still aren't critically below replacement. Birth rates dropped in the West just as leftist took over the culture in the 1960s
<blockquote>There's no support for splitting the USA up full stop. It's one of the most stable countries on earth.</blockquote>
Current support is not an argument that a hypothetic split would not solve problems.
<blockquote>I've shown the relevant links. You can of course decide to ignore them.</blockquote>
Tired of debating this. Are there average aggregate genetic differences between the races (or populations whatever you like to call them?
<blockquote>I have never denied that the concept is still clung to in the social sciences (and politics), although in the former case one wonder for how long). And a 'community' is not a 'race', nor is a'cluster' come to that.</blockquote>
The context was my argument that if a given ethnic group fails to build prosperity, it's rational to want to keep them out. That could be the case due to culture only. Even if there were no races (which I do NOT concede, but just for the sake of this particular argument let go) it would still be valid to keep out bad cultures.
<blockquote>Most successful at world-wide colonisation and exploitation and subjugation? We can agree on that.</blockquote>
Again with contextualization of conquest, applying modern moral standards (which Whites created) to the past only for Whites and false premises that colonization hurt the conquered which only stems from the fact they are poor today. Wonder why so much few people blame British for the colonization of Singapore or Hong Kong than Africa or India? Because the former are rich. Africans failed to build prosperity, so now Whites are blamed.
<blockquote>You are doing that contradictory thing again where you use a scientific term (genes) and then haste to apply it to discredited science ('race'). In fact most of your points assume that blacks (and whites come to that) are a 'race' when. they. are. not.</blockquote>
Racial science was never discredited. It was just politically abandoned and stigmatized due to the psychological shock of WW2. All evidence suggests races are different in the brain. Even leftist neuroscientist Sam Harris has acknowledged race differences in IQ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuFwyGx8kVs&t=1s
<blockquote>In-group bias is not the same as outward discrimination - and I think you know that.</blockquote>
In group bias and discrimination are the same thing. What I think you mean is unjustified or unwarranted discrimination given the situation which I do not support.
<blockquote>Probably for social and cultural factors, also Asians often have a good stake in the community. </blockquote>
So you admit Blacks and browns are the reason for riots?
<blockquote>However rioting is quite common in the subcontinent so it would be hard to call it genetic.</blockquote>
ROTFLOL that is like saying tall height is quite common in the Netherlands so it would be hard to call it genetic.