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David1616's Replies
<blockquote>Ethnic minority-led businesses (EMBs) in the UK contribute between £25 billion and £74 billion to the UK economy each year:</blockquote>
A bunch of numbers without context and without any data on how much they cost is not evidence that non Whites in the UK on average contribute more than they take in.
<blockquote>And I didn't see many members of ethnic minorities in the recent riots, mostly white thugs.</blockquote>
Oh really? What about 2011 riots and BLM riots? Whites protest because they are losing their homeland and having it turned into a shithole, minorities riot because one of their criminals was accidentally killed by a cop after resisting arrest and because they failed to reach equality with Whites despite preferential treatment.
<blockquote>Believe me during the various race riots in the UK they try and do so, or cower inside immigration centres while the white add to the fires.</blockquote>
IDK what you're' talking about. Where is your counter argument against my point that if Whites oppressed Blacks, Blacks would try to get away?
<blockquote>You seem determined to see the worst in other groups other than whites. If you are white I don't have pride in you</blockquote>
Nope, one does not need to want to see the worst since their bad side is sticking like a sore thumb everywhere you look. If the problem is only me, why don't I complain about Chinese immigrants?
<blockquote>Sometimes active hate is hard to miss (or disguise). The recent sentencing of 600 whites for rioting shows that.</blockquote>
So you don't know how to distinguish legit ethnic grievances and irrational hate and don't even know how the courts distinguish it. Yet you accuse me and people on my side of irrational hate.
<blockquote>something I think we have agreed on before. Whether or not that 'resentment' is actually something else is something else again of course, just as if the reasons for it are logical and sensible.</blockquote>
I'm not sure what you mean here. So you agree resentment against bad behaving ethnic groups on the aggregate is legit?
<blockquote>As just previously noted you are mixing good science with bad again to make a point to suit yourself.</blockquote>
Then show me where has science debunked a possibility that genetics could be the cause of racial differences in behavior? Twin studies show identical twins separated behave more similarly to each other than siblings raised in same household. We know genetics matter when it comes to behavior. With that in mind, since races behave differently it's very possible they do so out of genetics.
<blockquote>I can see no reason why stupid violent people cannot be identified just easily no matter who they are.</blockquote>
No they can't be easily identified. As long as there are racial differences in behavior and as long as people can't read other people's minds, there will be discrimination against worse behaving visible ethnic groups.
<blockquote>And recent research shows the gap has narrowed </blockquote>
Black and White IQ gap is not closing. A study from 2023 shows 17 point difference between Whites and generational Blacks. Black immigrants are slightly smarter raising overall Black average, but still less smart than Whites.
https://www.cremieux.xyz/p/the-state-of-the-gaps-2022-23
<blockquote>But the question still remains as to why anyone ought to be discriminated against generally on the basis of perceived intelligence.</blockquote>
Don't companies give candidates IQ test to decide who to hire? It's liberals who demand equal representation of Blacks everywhere totally ignoring their merit. This is what I am against.
Slavery was seen as moral by basically everyone in the world back then. Almost everyone practiced it. Arab slavery was worse and lasted longer yet there is no Arab guilt today, the same with everyone else. My point about White guilt being unfair to Whites is valid. White guilt is simply a result of Whites being held to a higher standard than anyone else.
<blockquote>I am not a lawyer</blockquote>
So you admit you can't answer. Yet you still accuse me of "irrational hate"
<blockquote>Can you name any Pakistanis in the UK who have rioted because they are so 'proud' of their ethnic identity they need to attack others?</blockquote>
So you can't name a non White who was ever condemned, censored or smeared because he states he is proud of his race? Pakistanis are not losing their homeland.
<blockquote>I did it once and then you felt the need to broaden the demand to exclude individual. I have done it again of late and now you ignore that.</blockquote>
It it obvious that is someone makes a thread "name a double standard of WN when it comes to race" he means political positions. You just can't name a single one so you argue for the sake of arguing because you don't want to admit you lost.
<blockquote>Unfortunately blacks are often treated more harshly under the law. For instance a 2016 Ministry of Justice study found that Black defendants were 81% more likely to be imprisoned than white defendants.</blockquote>
CJS is not racist. Blacks just behave worse.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178923000927
<blockquote>Please stop mixing good and discredited science.</blockquote>
Show me proof where was racial realism ever disproven.
<blockquote>Your prejudice is unfortunately showing. 'Better' is a subjective notion. And better at what? Rap music?</blockquote>
Data and evidence isn't prejudice
<blockquote>But if you like we can also consider SA Apartheid and the WN's lack of support of patriotism and racial pride there?</blockquote>
Which modern WN advocate denying Black people sovereignty?
<blockquote>A strawman. Naughty</blockquote>
No, it's not. You said races don't exist, but then said "pure races don't exist". Are Whites and Blacks on average genetically different? Yes or no?
<blockquote>studies showing that immigrants often contribute more in taxes than they receive in public services</blockquote>
I don't think so.
https://cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf
https://i.postimg.cc/qRpQGkNc/20230721-142956.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/cCHmVXMr/20230817-171058-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/QCybs10S/lgYxiye.jpg
Show me studies that compare lifetime budgetary contribution of all non Whites in the UK (not just first generation immigrants) to native Whites. What may happen is that fist generation are better because of some selection, but their children gravitate back.
<blockquote>That sort of inclusion? And do you not agree that whites have often oppressed blacks? </blockquote>
Ethnic exclusion is not oppression. Denial of sovereignty is oppression. No ethnic group owes any other ethnic group "inclusion" into their society, especially if the other ethnic group tends to behave significantly worse and is a huge cost on them. The only thing they owe then is to leave them alone. All ethnic groups throughout history that believed they were oppressed sought to ESCAPE their alleged oppressors. Blacks and browns in Western countries are the only examples which whine about oppression but don't want to get away from their alleged oppressors, which is exactly how someone would behave if they wanted to leech off someone else.
<blockquote>So you don't want to be equal?</blockquote>
No, I don't want anyone to give me some of their stuff at their expense so that I could be "equal".
<blockquote>That's not what the Founding Fathers thought.</blockquote>
Yet those founding fathers (as well as almost everyone up until about 1965) agreed with me. It seems to me you misinterpret what they meant with "equality"
<blockquote>whites were the principals, away from first capture, in the slave trade.</blockquote>
They bought them at a time when slavery was seen as moral by basically everyone in the world. You could easily argue they had a right to own them at that time. It's funny how leftist prescribe to moral relativism with current behavior of Islamist societies and indigenous tribes, but with long past behavior of Whites in a totally different world, suddenly all that goes out the window.
<blockquote>Evidence for this claim?</blockquote>
Whites didn't capture slaves, they bought existing ones captured by Blacks. You could always claim Whites would have still captured them, but there is no reason to think so.
<blockquote>You originally said that no ethnic group has an inherent right to live with another ethnic group. The opposite is true, as you admit.</blockquote>
Currently both Blacks and Whites have a right to live among each other. I propose both Whites and Blacks should be allowed to exclude. Where is the double standard?
<blockquote>Wanting to overthrow the elected govt is not a political position? Have you thought about this?</blockquote>
I asked for ideological double standard of WN when it comes to race. You bring up Trump supporters (not WN) tresspassing incident after they believed they were cheated out of an electioin. You are pathetic. Even if this example is valid (which it isn't) by your own admission WN didn't have any double standardsd before Jan. 6. which means they were a moral movement.
<blockquote>A group is not a race either.</blockquote>
What?
<blockquote>https://www.eeoc.gov</blockquote>
Does this control for their merit and their aggregate behavior? If not, stop wasting my time. You can't have a society where one visible ethnic group collectively behaves many times worse than others and not have any so called discrimination. People can't read other people's minds.
<blockquote>And are you now supposing that blacks reporting discrimination are dishonest? That is reaching, somewhat.</blockquote>
1.Because people often see discrimination when there is none, especially since they're TAUGHT they're oppressed (media, universities...etc)
2.Because it's their political interest to do so
<blockquote>You mean by doing those 'black' things that only black people do?</blockquote>
So now you deny there is group difference in behavior between Whites and Blacks?
<blockquote>I was talking of evidence for discrimination.</blockquote>
Even if you provide one, it's meaningless unless it's controlled for their behavior. Why aren't Asians complaining about being discriminated?
<blockquote>1.33 in 2013 to 1.548 now. A minor improvement. Still below replacement levels.</blockquote>
Not a negligible difference. Combined with media/popular culture encouragement and stigma to those that don't have them, I can easily see it reach 2.1. Even if they don't, I am not against all immigration. We could still prioritize immigrants from China, high caste Hindus and other Europeans. We don't need Blacks and MENAs.
<blockquote>Exceptions that do not prove the rule.</blockquote>
Exceptions have a cause. And they DO PROVE the low births aren't inevitable. Why do you think in Israel even secular Jews have high birth rates?
<blockquote>But you were suggesting that they are now, currently, the largest drain on the NHS. No they are not.</blockquote>
Blacks and Muslims in the UK are more likely to be on benefits, they are more likely to be unemployed and more likely to commit crime
<blockquote>This would lead to serious racial relations breakdowns and persecution.</blockquote>
Racial relations are already bad. Besides, America can split solving any racial problems forever.
<blockquote>And why do you think this is?</blockquote>
My personal thoughts? High IQ leftist Jews who who took control of institutions (Hollywood, media, education) partly due to their IQs partly due to high motivation and nepotism. Their influence in the media shaped the culture after TV became dominant in every household. Jews on average tend to have anti White biases due to what happened to them in Europe and I believe they tend to support leftism out of their own ethnic interest. Just my personal thoughts, I am not saying this is certain.
<blockquote>On an individual level.</blockquote>
What? So you can only measure a trait on an individual level but can't on an ethnic one? I guess we can't have any average height data by ethicity or race.
<blockquote>"Minstrel" isn't a culture.</blockquote>
You brought up minstrel. Black have their own culture which is easily argubable to be worse than White culture. If it's a burden on others, parody and condemnation is warranted
<blockquote> Redneck is a culture. It also doesn't deliberately disparage all white people, as being a redneck is a subculture prominently populated by white people. </blockquote>
It does all Southerners and rural Whites.
<blockquote>The comparison here would be making fun of hip-hop urban subculture, or something. Not minstrel performances.</blockquote>
You brought up minstrel. I agree making fun of Black urban gansta culture should be OK, but today it's considered "racist"
<blockquote>Have you actually read any documentation against your position whatsoever?</blockquote>
Yes, I've heard all their arguments. None of them are good enough. Have you read all the arguments of race realists?
<blockquote>Yes, Liberals are more likely to think X, but that doesn't mean a majority of them think X.</blockquote>
Acoording to the chart I posted, even moderate liberals have on average anti White biases.
<blockquote> It says they are more likely to have such a bias. Not that its a majority of them.</blockquote>
If the bias is so severe as the data shows and majority don't have them, that means the minority who do have to be even more severe validating my argument about AGGREGATE differences. And you still haven't showed me data that majority of liberals don't have anti White biased.
<blockquote>Mass executions?</blockquote>
Perfidious. Meaning those that behave bad. I disagree anyone should be executed, but I still see no double standards when it comes RACE in America. Jews are White.
<blockquote>On an individual level.</blockquote>
What? So you can only measure a trait on an individual level but can't on an ethnic one? I guess we can't have any average height data by ethnicity or race.
<blockquote>"Minstrel" isn't a culture.</blockquote>
You brought up minstrel. Black have their own culture which is easily arguable to be worse than White culture. If it's a burden on others, parody and condemnation is warranted
<blockquote> Redneck is a culture. It also doesn't deliberately disparage all white people, as being a redneck is a subculture prominently populated by white people. </blockquote>
It does all Southerners and rural Whites.
<blockquote>The comparison here would be making fun of hip-hop urban subculture, or something. Not minstrel performances.</blockquote>
You brought up minstrel. I agree making fun of Black urban gansta culture should be OK, but today it's considered "racist"
<blockquote>Have you actually read any documentation against your position whatsoever?</blockquote>
Yes, I've heard all their arguments. None of them are good enough. Have you read all the arguments of race realists?
<blockquote>How do you square this impasse?</blockquote>
The term "unwarranted tribalist" has a word "unwarranted" in it. Obvious cases of justified tribalism wouldn't work. The ambiguity would be much smaller.
<blockquote>Hell by your reasoning "liberal" and "conservative" are worthless because they have many different local, national contexts. A conservative in the UK is not the same as a conservative in the USA.</blockquote>
Maybe those terms need to be replaced with something more precise too.
<blockquote>I see no evidence that they would ever do this. </blockquote>
And what kind of evidence would there be if they would?
<blockquote>And you arguing this in the depths of moviechat is not going to accomplish anything. You are pissing in the wind.</blockquote>
Again with the "difficult therefor unjustified" fallacy.
<blockquote>Aren't most serial and mass killers in the USA, which this is more comparable to, white?</blockquote>
No, there aren't. Blacks have always been disproportionate among serial killers since 1900. In the 2010s and 2020 Blacks have been 8 times disproportionate. For some reason, Hollywood makes movies only about White serial killers
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373258117_RadfordFGCU_Annual_Report_on_Serial_Killer_Statistics_2023
<blockquote>Are you of the opinion that the only way one can express issues with immigration is to put up stickers in public places full of racial slurs?</blockquote>
"We will be minority in our country by 2060" is not racial slur. So isn't "immigrants cost more" and even "immigrants commit more crime"
<blockquote>Plenty of politicians, activists and journalists in the UK are openly against the levels of immigration and say so publicly and nothing happens to them.</blockquote>
You can be against immigration, but you aren't allowed to effectively advocate why. Once you start bringing effective rational arguments against immigration like the examples I listed, you are censored, smeared and persecuted.
<blockquote>No. I mentioned that the wealth and educational level of the average Chinese immigrant is much different to the average Syrian or Pakistani because they're from completely different social classes, and that's not due to race</blockquote>
Yes you did admit it. I asked why there aren't as many problems with Chinese and you answered their education. This is an admission that it's their BEHAVIOR.
Also how do you know the education differences aren't due to race?
<blockquote> Pakistani students would be perfectly comparable to Chinese students.</blockquote>
Any data on this? Also what percentage of Chinese are students compared to Pakistanis? We are talking about those communities on the aggregate not specifically selecting good subgroups.
<blockquote>Not read much social history eh?</blockquote>
The position that Whites "oppressed" Blacks historically is based on the false premise Whites owed Blacks inclusion. They didn't. No ethnic group owes any other ethnic group inclusion into their society.
<blockquote>I think they just wanted freedom and equality.</blockquote>
Wanting "equality" is a euphemism for wanting to leech off someone else. Nobody deserves "equality" with anyone. If you want wealth, build it yourself.
<blockquote>I see. Blacks were enslaved because of their bad behaviour? LOL</blockquote>
They were never "enslaved" by Whites. Whites BOUTHGT them from other Blacks who enslaved them. Had the latter not happened, they would have never been slaves. So it was a result of their behavior.
<blockquote>The UK's labor force is 1.5% larger due to higher immigration, which has contributed £40 billion to the GDP and £18 billion to tax revenues.</blockquote>
This is only one side of the coin which doesn't take into account the COST of immigrants. I have shown you evidence how much they cost the government. Blacks and Muslims in the UK are more likely to be unemployed, more likely to receive welfare and more likely to commit crime. The supposed benefit of immigration is only short term, long term they cost the country more. It's a giant Ponzi scheme. Britain has become addicted to immigration as a quick solution. And even if the country really needed immigration, it could still prefer immigrants from countries from which immigrants tend to behave better like China, India and Europe as opposed to Africa and Muslim countries.
<blockquote>It is if you repeatedly don't answer the question. See how it works?</blockquote>
Ok I am not barred anywhere so aren't Blacks. How is this a double standard?
<blockquote>It was an insurrection by a group advocating patriotism and respect for the police.</blockquote>
Still not a political position. And "insurrection" is a leftist/establishment interpretation of it.
<blockquote>And I provided the obvious one: if there no such thing as biological race then discriminating against someone the same as yourself in all but minor details, especially in the case of those whose real ethnicity has been proved. is a double standard</blockquote>
Ok let's say races do not really exist for the sake of the argument (I don't concede to this). By your logic Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Native Americans are all hypocrites for having intergroup preference which renders the supposed WN "double standard" from WN intergroup preference meaningless
<blockquote>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6864380/</blockquote>
"We calculated the percent of blacks <b> reporting</b> discrimination in several domains, including health care."
So Blacks reporting discrimination (not actually proven). I asked for proof of discrimination controlling for their behavior. Even if they really are, how do you know they aren't discriminated because how they behave?
<blockquote>For more immediate proof that it exists take a look round the posts on this board. And your own.</blockquote>
Me criticizing negative behavior of a group is not irrational discrimination.
<blockquote>Oh I think I can; and in matters of hate speech the law can, too. </blockquote>
Ok how does the law distinguish "irrational hate" and legit resentment towards bad behavior of certain ethnic groups?
<blockquote>right wing trope usually provided without evidence.</blockquote>
Name me a Pakistani who was cancelled, censored or condemned for being proud of being Pakistani? A Hispanic in the US? A Black?
<blockquote>One given to you just earlier, based on the logic of accepted biological science</blockquote>
That's not an example. Even if science said that there are no races, it wouldn't be a double standard to have in group race favoritism. When Blacks and everyone else do it it's totally OK.
<blockquote>Not a word I have used here..</blockquote>
But you do morally condemn them. But can't name a single example of their double standards?
<blockquote>Under the law it is assumed which is good enough</blockquote>
"All men are created equal" means everyone should be treated equally under the law. Not that there are not differences between races.
<blockquote>It seems the Chinese and Asians are brighter and do better than whites.</blockquote>
And even more evidence that Whites are better and brighter than Blacks and browns.
<blockquote>you mean they are, just elsewhere? But as I have never called them evil</blockquote>.
I never conceded they are. The principle part is just easier to prove. You do call them immoral (same thing), yet can't name a single double standard.
<blockquote>Science does not support the idea of pure races with ancient origins</blockquote>
So you admit only pure races don't exist, but races in general do? Neanderthal example is EVIDENCE OF DIFFERNCES since Blacks don't have Neanderthal DNA. They do on the other hand have DNA of unknown hominids most probably Homo Ergaster (which Whites don't). Blacks and Whites are partly a different species.
<blockquote>Is this a debate about slavery in Brazil and Portugal or in America? In any case, Arabs captured European slaves, yet today nobody blames them. It's only Whites who are told we must feel guilty</blockquote>
The context is White guilt. Since you haven't responded to any of my arguments above, my point stands
<blockquote>I don't need to the courts and law already do it for us all. But that you cannot apparently tell (or choose not to distinguish) yourself is worrying..</blockquote>
Ok, how do the courts distinguish it? I DO distinguish it. Resenting Asians (in the US) is irrational hatred because they behave well, integrate and aren't mass migrating (at least East Asians). Resenting Blacks and Muslims (as long as you express it through the ballot box and not in your personal life) is legit resentment because those groups behave problematically and do mass migrate. Pretty simple.
<blockquote>Once again one is given the impression that you wish to discriminate against people whose genome 'means' a disapproved tendency is inescapable</blockquote>
So you can't answer how much of "great extent" means? Genetics has never been disproven as the cause of different behavior between races.
<blockquote>so now you can stop focussing just on other ethnic groups and be more balanced can't you?</blockquote>
No, I said IF violent Whites had that sing.
<blockquote> if the gap has narrowed they would be closer to the white IQ scores would they not? QED</blockquote>
Our discussion was about genetic input in IQ differences. In this context, Blacks IQ must raise without increasing White admixture.