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Atarimaster's Replies
> What a bullshit cheap laugh that was.
Oh, well. It was a joke and while I’ve seen better jokes on the show, I think a joke gone wrong was the least problem on S8.
However, I’ve come up with the perfect justification:
It wasn’t a joke at all, it was the writers’ way of reminding us that historical "eye-witness" reports are not to be trusted because the authors had to rely on hearsay and also often made up things to match their own political opinion.
And no, I don’t actually believe that. But it sounds good as an excuse, doesn’t it?
;-)
> It didn't matter what he wanted - he was the rightful heir to the throne -
> Jon was known for doing his duty if he liked it or not.
Yes, but when you’re the rightful heir it’s your RIGHT to become King, not your DUTY. That right has been renounced before, we’ve met a man who did this.
Of course, as we know Jon, he would have seen it as his duty to take the throne IF he hadn’t thought that Daenerys would be a good and just Queen. But that’s what he thought, so he felt there was no need to claim his right. And what did he do when he saw that he was wrong? – He again chose duty over love, as he did before with Ygritte.
Now think about it: Twice, he lost the woman he loved because he fulfilled his duty. And the second time, he even killed her with his own hands. In my opinion, it was in no way out of character (as we’ve seen it in previous seasons) that he was shown as a broken man when Tyrion visited him in his cell.
Moreover, he had supported Daenerys, he bent the knee to her and was part of the attack which lead to the destruction of King’s Landing. He was totally wrong on her. Although it wasn’t even mentioned in the show, I think it was in character for him to feel that by that, he had lost the right to become King (morally, not legally).
I agree that season 7 and 8 were seriously flawed in various aspects. But THIS is no example of bad writing. Jon did stay true to his character.
Oh, and regarding this bit from your original posting:
"That he wants to remain a bastard and wander the North???"
The Wildlings simply don’t care whether he’s a bastard or the trueborn son of a King or whatever. Such things do not matter among them.
Cersei removing any chance of mercy wasn’t illogical to me. She said "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die" in Season 1 and I’ve never seen her change her mind on that. So while killing Missandei was illogical strategically speaking it wasn’t out of character for Cersei.
I do however agree on the part that while she was at it, she could have killed Tyrion too. Unless she wanted to spare him to give him a much more horrible death later, but that… well, feels like justifying.
Yes, but just giving him some commands (which indeed only works for Targaryens, and maybe not even for all of them) is something different than warging.
We’ve seen Bran taking full control of Hodor’s body and Jojen stated that it requires much more power to control a human being than to control an animal.
Granted, I think controlling a dragon is much harder than controlling a direwolf, maybe even harder than controlling a human that’s a half-wit so I do agree that Bran may not be able to do it. But simply to discount it because he’s no Targaryen is, in my opinion, wrong because we’ve no way of knowing.
Feel free to call me a liar, and I feel free I call you plainly stupid if you don’t get that Jon becoming King would’ve been the good old "from rags to riches" story that we’ve seen a thousand times and thus, surely isn’t "surprising" in any way.
Plus, I don’t see why I should lie here.
I’ve had Jon becoming King on my list of possible endings – which makes me WRONG! I DIDN’T predict the ending. "Hey, guys, see how great I am? I totally failed in predicting the ending! Cool, huh?"
Okay, then I got you wrong.
And I certainly can agree with both the hope that it’ll be a motivation and your doubts that this will be enough to finish the books.
> The world of GoT is not a women-friendly.
No argument here.
> It's just not very probably when they become a majority of the world's powers.
> At least the part of the world which we are shown.
Yes, but in EVERY story we get to see the events that are improbable and differ from the events in the rest (the part we don’t get shown). That’s what makes it a story. That’s why we see them instead of all the other events in the world where things run just the way the usually do.
I think I get what you mean: In all stories, the authors create a certain setting and they’ll better stick to that setting, otherwise it’ll become unbelievable. If they for example create a vast continent but on various occasions travelling around on that continent seems to take no time at all, people will frown and think: "What’s going on here? How can that be?"
I just think that the improbable accumulation of powerful women it not one of these things, but well within the limits of unusual events that we get told *because* they are unusual.
But that or course is a matter of opinion.
> Even now with all the hype and pressure I seriously doubt Martin will finish the books.
You seem to think that hype and pressure will speed up the process of writing.
Of course SOME people do their best work under pressure but to others, pressure is the death of creativity. I don’t know if this is the case with GRRM, but I do know it happens.
> Nothing wrong with good female characters and the show
> had plenty of those but it just highly unlikely in a medieval society.
So you’re saying in a fantasy story, you can accept Dragons and undead people and resurrected people and precogs… but not a bunch of strong females? While being based on our Middle Ages, it IS a fantasy story, so in my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with shaking things up a little, you don’t have to build a faithful representation of our medieval society with a bit of magic on top.
It’s just like, for example, all those airships in "Watchmen" in an alternate 1985 world. Of course you could say that’s unlikely in a world in which technology seemed to have advanced very much like it did in our world (if not a little bit more) – but hey, it’s a story, the authors are free not to follow the course of our history.
Great!
Can’t wait so see the reboot!
I’d agree to this ending – but ONLY if Hot Pie gets to be the Mad Queen’s Hand. That’s her thanks for a dragon-shaped bread he baked for her.
> For most, it would've been a surprise.
A SURPRISE?
A bastard, not loved by bis stepmother, outsider in the world he lives in, doing nothing but good things almost always, fights his way up and becomes King in the end.
THAT would’ve been a surprise? Come on!
I’ve feared that he might become Kind in the end for a long time, before I started visiting the imdb boards and I’ve never visited any other boards (of course, this one here later when the imdb boards were shut down).
> I'd have preferred exactly the same ending. But properly developed over time.
I agree almost completely.
I would have loved a bit more "bitter" in the "bittersweet" ending, i.e. some more good guys dying. As mentioned above by Orcsquisher, it was a bit too Disney this way. On the other hand – most of the good guys in Lord Of The Rings survived, too (or died and came back stronger in one specific case) and I can’t remember anyone who ever complained about THAT (neither did I).
And of course, I absolutely agree on the "properly developed" part.
As for the outcome in itself – Dany going on a rampage and therefore, having to be killed, Jon NOT becoming King, Sansa becoming Queen of the North, Arya getting to explore what’s west of Westeros, Cersei dead etc. pp. – I like that.
I even liked Arya killing the Night King (why does this feel like I just said "Jehovah"?) IF they hadn’t make it feel as if they just wanted to remove the WW from the board as quickly as possible (but that’s the "properly developed" part again).
I’m also fine with Bran becoming King, but then again, I probably would have been okay with almost ANYONE who isn’t Jon Snow.
If I had never seen Season 7 and 8 and someone had just given me a brief summary of the events, I proably would have said: "Good stuff, can’t wait to see it." – to be then disappointed with HOW they played it out.
> Bronn gets the Reach? What about all the Lords who served the Tyrells?
> What is their say on it? Sam has oath broken from one side of the continent to the other -
> but he gets to be Grandmaester? Something fishy there.
Well I guess that’s a matter of "the more things change, the more they stay the same".
The Kings of Westeros or their Hands always decided as it suited them who gets which piece of land and which position. We’ve seen that. Obviously, having an elected Kind didn’t change that.
> Gendry is Lord of the Stormlands because of Dany? Sure Bran could back him up but can't say whoever
> was looking after the Stormlands before that is going to be happy and not have local support.
Ummm… WAS there anybody who looked after the Stormlands?
> The Iron Islands didn't demand to stay independent like the North did - how is that
> going to play in the Iron Islands?
As I’ve said before in other threads: The Iron Islands are probably very weak at the moment. Think about that: A great part of the Ironborn followed Euron. Most of them are probably dead by now. The other ones that followed Yara… most of them were killed by Euron in Season 7. So chances are that Yara has only very few people left. It was easy to take the Iron Islands with them (because no one was left on the Islands to stop her) but to keep them alive on islands that practically have no resources to make a living, that’s a different thing. So for now, it IS the logical choice to stay part of the Six Kingdoms to receive help. That may change at some point in the future.
> The prince of Dorne - where was he when the Sand Snakes were running amoke? Is his power solid.
PROBABLY not. That’s why he didn’t declare independence.
But yes, I also hated it that after the Sand Snakes were killed we learned NOTHING anymore about Dorne except that they have a new Prince. I think we didn’t even get to learn his name, or was it mentioned at some point and I missed it?
[quote]
and the surviving "good guys" all had relatively happy endings. Bran is king, Sansa is queen in the north, Arya is a hero and off to find adventure, Jon is free from responsibility and off to live with Tormund and the wildlings, Tyrion is hand of the king, Brienne and Podrick are kingsguard, Yara is queen of the Ironborn, Sam is the kings maester, Davos is lord of ships, Bronn is coin master and lord of highgarden
[/quote]
Yes.
By the way, are there any good guy left who didn’t get rewarded? The positions of Master of Whisperers, Master of Laws and Master of War are vacant…
> for fuck's sake it's like a Disney movie.
Awwww no, you can’t say that…
… they didn’t sing.
> I have a hard time believing that. Unless it was just a random
> guess of yours that turned out to be correct.
I agree.
I mean: From the start, it was very clear that there were two options – either she will become Queen, or not. That’s a 50:50 chance and obviosly, some people turned out to be right.
> but I doubt even the show-runners knew what they were
> going to do with her character at that point.
A reasonable assumption. I can’t imagine (of course, I might be wrong) that GRRM told the showrunners how it is going to end when the show started. After all, at that time, there was no need for it. So my guess is that whenever the showrunners wanted to depart from the books, they asked if that was a problem ("Can we kill off Mago or is he going to be important in the end?") but otherwise, they knew as much about the end as everybody else.
(As I’ve said, I don’t know if that’s true. I never cared to google if it was revealed at which point the showrunners got to know the ending.)
> Oh, we don't differ there.
Alright, then I was jumping to conclusions, sorry!
Well yes, it could be, of course.
But it could be great all of the time, or it could start bad and then get better from season to season, or it could suck from the beginning and stay that way.
In other words: On that account, it doesn’t differ from any other new TV show.
And btw, I don’t consider the time I’ve spent on the great seasons of GoT wasted because the finale didn’t live up to my expectations. Maybe that’s where we differ.
> a person who appears to be crazy
He proably appears to be crazy to people who just met him, or only see him from distance as most of his subjects will do. But I don’t think he appeared crazy to Brienne, Davos, Sansa or Gendry. Certainly not to Sam.
Or did you mean something like: While they were okay with Bran personally, they should have thought about how he will appear to all the other people in the Kingdom?
> will any of you actually give the prequel a go?
I will.
It if turns out they suck, I’ll just stop watching.