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arcticdragon (585)
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Is the 45sec boxer a TRANS person, or a female with XY chromes?
Do LGBTQ questions come up in job interviews?
Are these [deleted] users ALL the exact same person?
Is there a name for this sales tactic?
What canon event did [spoiler] break?
C*sgender has become a slur on Twitter. Yay or nay?
Rest in peace, Angela Lansbury
Transgenderism: What is the "right to EXIST"?
What is the "right to EXIST"?
Is Page's transition upsetting people? If yes, why?
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<blockquote>But only you are always associating lies, delusions, and confusions etc with gender assignment, your implication here. </blockquote>
Because you didn't explain why gender assignment can be validated any more than those things, with the methods you listed.
<blockquote>One can also validate truths, clear headedness, aspirations and mental health.</blockquote>
I don't know what you mean by aspirations, but the rest need to be proven. NOT with social influence, reinforcing behaviors to groups, and the other ways you listed.
<blockquote>while sex in immutable, gender is a matter of convention and can be changed.
And my answer remains the same. There is a whole range of possible genders. Male and female are just the two most common.</blockquote>
I'm still waiting for the answer to my earlier question about the male and female genders. Why they're called those.
<blockquote>Since I merely tell you honestly the current view of medical professionals, the matter of indefensibility is something you need to take up with the doctors; this while explaining things to you bluntly and openly, several times in fact, is hardly 'evasive'. </blockquote>
Okay, then tell me what these "medical professionals" say about the male and female genders. What would THEIR answer to my earlier question be?
<blockquote>When transgenders change their gender they simple move to another of those conventional names for that new gender thereby so then having one sex, another gender. </blockquote>
I'm still not seeing the answer to the question. Why do they absolutely MUST have two genders that share the same names as biological sexes? Male or female?
You say "One sex, another gender"? Fine, then tell me. If a person can be the male sex, but the female gender, explain what is the female gender. Give me a reason why it MUST be called "female".
<blockquote>They might as well call the genders 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' 'masculine' 'feminine' or even <b>A and B</b>.</blockquote>
Bruh, you might be onto something with the last pair.
So why don't they call those two genders A and B? Anything except male or female? Anything that will be less associated with the two sexes?
<blockquote>How can there be a symptom of something which is not valid?</blockquote>
The symptom, AKA the internalization and personal experience, is NOT valid because it doesn't match with reality. That's why even YOU agree, and even suggested yourself, that they have to mentally transition from one internalized body image to another to be cured.
You really need to review what the term "valid" means.
<blockquote>With this type of sentiment, despite what you claimed, totally lacking empathy for some very troubled and confused people dismissing all their troubles as 'invalid' as you did earlier. </blockquote>
Thanks for your opinion. But I don't dismiss their troubles as "invalid". Only their beliefs.
<blockquote>Gender is a social convention which are validated through a combination of social influence, shared expectations, and the potential for sanctions (both positive and negative), reinforcing behaviours that align with the group's understanding of acceptable conduct. And if I may say so, it is presumptive to think you can decide whose experiences are 'valid' or not.</blockquote>
Sorry if you were insulted the first time, but I have to bring them up again. Everything you just said can also be applied to dreams, confusions, delusions, pretentions, and lies.
You can validate ALL of those things with social influence, reinforcing behaviors that align to groups, and every other way you listed.
I don't decide whose experiences are "valid". Reality does. I can take your side and validate everybody's experiences with all of those methods you listed, if I wanted. But reality will still decide if I'm right or wrong.
<blockquote>I can't be bothered to type the answer out all over again. Please see my other reply to you today.</blockquote>
And please see what I said about your reply above.
<blockquote>Whatever. But transgender people can be insecure and your lack of empathy and medical knowledge do them no favours.</blockquote>
I have enough empathy. I just don't let it get in the way of objectivity. Everyone who understands the necessity of criticism understands that.
No. Either your medical knowledge is too indefensible, or it's your evasive way of defending it, that do them no favors.
<blockquote>Thank you for your purely anecdotal evidence. To which I can just easily point (through personal experience, my inevitable exposure to transgender culture) to people who honestly do believe it.</blockquote>
YOUR personal experience is anecdotal evidence. But don't worry, I don't doubt that some people honestly do believe their own BS. Delusional people do exist. And others are just hypocritical; always acting against what they claim to believe.
<blockquote>The word "gender" originally meant "type" or "kind" in Latin and French, but evolved to encompass social, cultural, and psychological aspects <b>beyond biological sex</b>, including gender identity and expression. I hope that helps.</blockquote>
You bolded "beyond biological sex", and still can't even begin to explain why they absolutely MUST have two genders that share the same names as biological sexes. No, it didn't help.
<blockquote>I helpfully listed a range of different genders for your information a while back. </blockquote>
Which was absolutely not helpful to explain about the only two genders I asked you about, and why they absolutely MUST share the same names as the male and female sexes.
<blockquote>body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), where they are preoccupied with perceived flaws in their appearance, leading to anxiety and distress. In some cases a skinny person may still think they are too fat for instance and develop an eating disorder. They need to transition to a more positive body image before being cured. But, good try. </blockquote>
And what kind of body do you think an already skinny person who still thinks he's too fat needs to transition into to be cured? Or, is this
"more positive body image" you spoke of not a new body, but a new internalization that's different than the one he has about still being too fat?
Is it not possible that this person's internalization of being fat is just... not valid? That it's just a symptom of a DISORDER? Body dysmorphic disorder?
<blockquote>By the same logic then, identifying as female does not validate being male. See how it works? </blockquote>
You got it backwards. It's being male that does not validate identifying as female. But it does validate identifying as male.
Your mental gymnastics is really falling apart.
<blockquote>With this you have moved on from asserting that trans gendering, and gender dysphoria as a medical condition does not reflect an 'objective reality' of sex at least, to grievously insulting or discrediting the individuals usually concerned with transitioning gender. With your oft-repeated, mere opinions, familiar in the exchange between us it appears that, ultimately, it is all you have to legitimise your view - and is unfortunate.</blockquote>
It was not my intention to insult (I mean that), but the point is that's all YOU managed to prove so far. That they have these experiences. That people who have these experiences exist. Not that these experiences are valid.
<blockquote>Yes; it is true that he sincerely identifies as woman. His sex is still male, but it is true that his gender is reassigned. </blockquote>
But IS he a woman, just because he called himself one? The validity of your answer hinges on your answer to my previous question. Why they have genders named after sexes. Why they have genders called "man" and "woman".
<blockquote>Thank you for playing.</blockquote>
Your attempts to feign cockiness only reveals your insecurities. Not a good look for someone who took it on himself to defend transgender people.
<blockquote>"people keep saying that "gender is not the same as sex" But virtually every single person I've ever heard say that typically don't really believe it themselves. Nearly all attempts by genderqueer people to identify as the "man or woman" genders have been a way to pretend the "male or female" sexes."? I see.</blockquote>
Well, it's true. And until you answer my question, it's still waiting to be unproven.
<blockquote>There are many gender identities and names, including non-binary, genderqueer, agender, and bigender. (Most people are born cisgender.) Here your question betrays an unfortunate lack of understanding about gender distinctions.</blockquote>
You still didn't answer the question.
Why do they call <b>male/female</b> "genders" at all? Why not call THOSE two "genders" something else, instead of male and female?
<blockquote>lol Which one this time? But no matter, I am leaving you to it after this. We have already agreed that one can have an accurate body weight and an internalized body weight.................
The analogy you gave was about the supposedly comparable idea of internalised weight and I gave my answer already.</blockquote>
You're still just dodging my actual analogy.
It's so damn simple. I'm skinny, I internalize being obese. AM I OBESE? Yes or no?
<blockquote>'objective reality' is that many have gender dysphoria, and medicine takes this as, objectively, perfectly valid and true in itself.
one can change one's gender but not one's sex, since objectively, they can be considered separately and one is immutable, the other not.
I should not have to keep repeating this - and won't anymore since I feel you are just being obtuse.</blockquote>
Speaking of repeating and being obtuse, you're still not answering my previous questions. Do you know how important those are to validate your "opinions", as you seem to like to call most things?
<blockquote>And the 'objective reality' is that some people do not relate to their gender.</blockquote>
The 'objective reality" is that some people have dreams. They have confusions. Delusions. Pretentions. And lies.
But. Are. They. TRUTHFUL?
If a man identifies as a woman, is that TRUE?
<blockquote>I have, thank you; it still consists of just your somewhat conservative opinions together with a conflation of sex and gender. </blockquote>
Clearly you did not. Because if you did, you would have recognized it as a question instead of an opinion.
<blockquote>Which question was that?</blockquote>
Think more carefully. Why do they call male/female "genders" at all? Why do they need genders to have the same names as sexes?
If genders and sexes are different as you say, why not give genders any other name, except male or female?
<blockquote>Thank you for your expected opinion but, as explained before, while sex is unchanging, gender is not, your preferences notwithstanding. Sorry about that.</blockquote>
Answer the question.
<blockquote>Good; so we can both agree that internalised weight exists and is valid and real then, right?</blockquote>
Bruh. When someone accused you for using a strawman, and you don't deny it, that's your cue to stop using it, and address the actual analogy they gave you.
<blockquote>That is something of an evasion since I was asking if it "was not valid or real", as this is something you claim of the experience of others, and not whether it matters (to you). Please try again.</blockquote>
I gave you my answer, and you avoided it.
What matters is OBJECTIVE MATERIAL REALITY. That is what gives ANYTHING validity. If I identify as male, then the reality of me being male is what makes it valid.
If anybody else identifies as male, being male makes it valid.
<blockquote>It is not a strawman </blockquote>
Yes it is. You attempted to change the subject from gender identity to sexuality.
<blockquote>do you claim something as valid and real for yourself which you deny others?</blockquote>
Read what I just said about reality making things valid.
<blockquote>Not even where I have told you that sex and gender are not the same, and why?</blockquote>
Read what I said. Anybody ever point out to you that you have a habit of avoiding important parts?
<blockquote>And the reality is that some people feel out of place in their original gender</blockquote>
And do those feelings match with reality?
<blockquote>This agreed separation implies you now consider it separate from sexual identity. Good idea.</blockquote>
Still waiting for you to answer my previous question about this one.
<blockquote>If you think that you are insulted by being told you make assertions and think them necessarily true over the experience of others - whom you now call 'liars' just because you don't agree with them - then you need to get out more. </blockquote>
They're men who identify as women, and women who identify as men. They're people who identify as something they are not. Call that whatever you want.
<blockquote>Internalized weight bias exists, and is often when someone internalizes negative stereotypes about their weight and devalues themselves, or suffers distress as a result. The answer can be a transition in weight through diet. In this sense all dieting (or weight loss surgery) is a form of transition. Glad to help.</blockquote>
This is another attempt at a strawman. Read my analogy again.
<blockquote>This time, answer the thrice-asked question of whether, assuming you have an internal sense or experience of your own sexuality, that means it is not valid or real as you claim for others. Is there a problem?</blockquote>
I thought I answered that, despite its obvious attempt at a false dilemma and strawman.
My internal sense or experience of gender identity (not sexuality, GENDER IDENTITY) does not matter. What matters is <i>objective material reality</i>.
If my gender identity does not match with objective reality, it won't matter how many times you prove to the world I still have this internal sense or experience.
<blockquote>Good; then by now you ought to know that you are wrong about sex and gender being the same. One can have a birth sex and identify with a different gender, as many do.
Many people with gender dysphoria have a strong, lasting desire to live a life that "matches" or expresses their gender identity. They do this by changing the way they look and behave. Proof of gender dysphoria can include a person's history, a medical report, and evidence of distress over time.</blockquote>
Read and consider your answers again. Nothing you said denies what I said.
Think more carefully. Why do they call male/female "genders" at all? Why do they need genders that have the same names as sexes?
<blockquote>You mean the 'reality' you prefer as a conservative commentator, and not the reality others experience.
You didn't say whether, assuming you have an internal sense or experience of your own sexuality, that means it is not valid or real. I wonder why? If it is, then there is no logical reason to deny such certainty in others.</blockquote>
I'm not conservative, and there is no PREFERRED reality. There is only objective material reality, and whether or not experience matches with that.
"Sexuality" is an umbrella term that includes many ideas and concepts. I want to focus strictly on gender identity.
This time, answer the <i>skinny vs obese</i> analogy I provided. It's a good analogy.
<blockquote>Not at all, I am just pointing out how presumptive you are in assuming your view of sex and gender is the only reasonable one and those who do not share that view are somehow 'pretending' or now even it seems, 'liars'. Ad hominems indeed</blockquote>
Yes, it is an ad hominem. You've given me no reason to agree with you except to disprove your accusation that I have unshakeable biases.
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