Is the 45sec boxer a TRANS person, or a female with XY chromes? - Politics Discussion

[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

I'll ask you this in return:

Where were these genetic exceptions, here an individual with XY chromosomes, the quintessential identifier of the male sex, 20 years ago before trans women in women's sports became a political topic?

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

I don't know.

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[–] Zarkoff (1853) 4 months ago

It sounds like she has some kind of severe androgen insensitivity. That can cause people to grow a vagina and appear to be I guess what you might call a typical female. Some of them can be very feminine looking, but that boxer does look more androgynous, I guess.

They don't have internal female (is it still OK to refer to reproductive organs like that? Birthing organs maybe?) organs, and they'll have testes, but they won't be descended. They don't have periods.

This is what I read, at least.

She's definitely not trans, anyway.

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

If that's true, then I guess the next thing that should be discussed is what is the criteria to determine whether or not someone with this anatomy is male or female?

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[–] B1cKsurN (17405) 4 months ago

No, all this information is...is part of the TransMovement's justification for their inclusive or 3rd spaces.

"Intersex is a thing! Herp Derp!"

Since they have been using intersex people to push their own agenda...then intersex people are a part of the Pride People, and therefore should not be considered fully male, or fully female. They are in a permanent state of transition.

Can we just organize separate leagues for them all, and move on as a society....please?

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

Many people who criticize the transgender movement argue that there is only male and female. There are no 3rd or more sexes, and there is no sex spectrum.

Do you agree with this? If so, how would you reconcile this argument with the existence of intersex people, if you don't think intersex people should be considered male or female?

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

It's simple really:

XY = male

XX = female

The end.

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

Ever heard of Turner Syndrome (X), Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY), Trisomy X (XXX), and other sex chromosome aneuploidies?

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

Yes, but what does that have to do with Khelif, who has been identified as possessing XY chromosomes and not the genetic exceptions that you presented?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

No.

Khelif grew up in a rural village in Tiaret Province, in northwestern Algeria. She originally played football before switching to boxing. She stated that her father initially did not allow her to participate in the sport because "he did not approve of boxing for girls".

At the 2018 AIBA Women's World Boxing Championships, Khelif finished 17th in the women's lightweight event after being eliminated in the first round by Karina Ibragimova.[5] At the 2019 AIBA Women's World Boxing Championships, she finished 33rd in the women's lightweight event after being eliminated in the first round by Natalia Shadrina.

2023: IBA Championships disqualification

"There never has been evidence that [...] Khelif [...] had XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone". The IBA did not reveal the testing methodology, stating the "specifics remain confidential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif

Unless you've got some information the regulatory bodies have not, provide it please.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

What source would you prefer?

Left:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2024/08/01/imane-khelif-algerian-boxer-gender-paris-olympics/

Right:

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/who-imane-khelif-algerian-olympic-boxer-deemed-have-male-chromosomes

Perhaps the UK?:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

Some excerpts:

"She failed a gender eligibility test conducted by the IBA hours before her gold-medal showdown against China's Yang Liu. The Algerian initially appealed against the decision to the Court of Arbitration of Sport (Cas), but withdrew her appeal during the process, the IBA said."

"The Russian-led IBA said Khelif "failed to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women's competition, as set and laid out in the IBA regulations"."

"IBA President Umar Kremlev told the Russian news agency Tass last year the disqualifications were because “it was proven they have XY chromosomes.”

Now, do YOU have a source that demonstrates that Khelif does NOT have XY chromosomes?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2024/08/01/imane-khelif-algerian-boxer-gender-paris-olympics/

Paywalled. Loading up Archive.

"The IOC, which is overseeing the boxing competition in Paris, does not test for gender, and there never has been evidence that either Khelif or Lin had male chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone. They have competed for years, including at the Tokyo Olympics and several world championships."

Also, to be frank. I don't really take Kremlev as a valid source here. The IBA have repudiated him directly on their site, and he says shit like this:

On Thursday, Kremlev posted a video on X, criticizing the Paris Games Opening Ceremonies and called IOC President Thomas Bach “a Chief sodomite.”

>https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

Where does the BBC say what you are alleging here?

>"IBA President Umar Kremlev told the Russian news agency Tass last year the disqualifications were because “it was proven they have XY chromosomes.”

Here's a direct source from the IBA:

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

So, that was a long winded way of saying you have no source indicating that Khelif does not possess XY chromosomes?

I've provided mine, where are the sources to back up your claim?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>I've provided mine, where are the sources to back up your claim?

Your source is one Russian dude, who clearly has a prejudice, whose own organisation doesn't actually back him up.

The Washington Post, and the BBC do not back up your claims and suggest strongly that there's no actual evidence whatsoever of any such test on Khelif or Lin.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"Your source is one Russian dude, who clearly has a prejudice, whose own organisation doesn't actually back him up."

So is it because he's Russian that we should discount the claim here, because umm Russians are bad because they invaded Ukraine or something? Are you implying that he somehow has a grudge against this particular Algerian athlete that made this claim? That's bullshit and you know it.

Do you have an actual source to backup your claim that Khelif doesn't have XY chromosomes, that the IOC does admittedly does not test for, or are you going to continue gaslighting me with random tangents?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>So is it because he's Russian that we should discount the claim here, because umm Russians are bad because they invaded Ukraine or something? Are you implying that he somehow has a grudge against this particular Algerian athlete that made this claim? That's bullshit and you know it.

Also that his own organisation that he's president of doesn't back him up, and that he clearly has a bug to bear. Why hasn't the IBA just confirmed his claims?

"On Thursday, Kremlev posted a video on X, criticizing the Paris Games Opening Ceremonies and called IOC President Thomas Bach “a Chief sodomite.”

>Do you have an actual source to backup your claim that Khelif doesn't have XY chromosomes, that the IOC does admittedly does not test for, or are you going to continue gaslighting me with random tangents?

No. And you don't have a (credible) source that they've been tested. Neither of us actually know. But you think, apparently, that we should just make the assumption that they do.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"She failed a gender eligibility test conducted by the IBA hours before her gold-medal showdown against China's Yang Liu. The Algerian initially appealed against the decision to the Court of Arbitration of Sport (Cas), but withdrew her appeal during the process, the IBA said."

You're turning a blind eye, Skavau. I understand that you're simply being contrary here for it's own sake, but please do explain why the athlete "herself" withdrew "her" appeal.

"No. And you don't have a (credible) source that they've been tested. Neither of us actually know. But you think, apparently, that we should just make the assumption that they do."

On the contrary, I have a source, or sources, in this circumstance. You, however, do not.

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>You're turning a blind eye, Skavau. I understand that you're simply being contrary here for it's own sake, but please do explain why the athlete "herself" withdrew "her" appeal.

And we don't know the details of this eligibility test. You are inventing your own narrative.

Why aren't the IBA confirming the claims of Kremlev?

>On the contrary, I have a source, or sources, in this circumstance. You, however, do not.

No, you literally just have Kremlev stating it. No-one else seems to be agreeing with him.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

So, the summation of this conversation is that you have no source for your claims but you discount a statement from the President of the IBA based on some unknown reason and therefore we should assume Khelif does not have XY chromosomes, ignoring on the record statements to the contrary? We should also ignore empirical evidence of Khelif forcing a surrender of a world class female boxer in under a minute and discount that purely due to the skill of the Algerian who was previously disqualified from female competitions?

I'm just trying to follow you here, Skavau. I know you typically don't present your own positions on anything and instead attack those of others, but did I miss anything in regards to your position on this topic?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>So, the summation of this conversation is that you have no source for your claims but you discount a statement from the President of the IBA based on some unknown reason and therefore we should assume Khelif does not have XY chromosomes, ignoring on the record statements to the contrary?

I refuse to answer any questions until you tell me why the IBA are not backing up the claims of their president.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"...the IBA are not backing up the claims of their president."

Do you have a source to confirm this?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Why are they not just saying that Khelif has XY chromosomes, like Kremlev said?

Further details:

Kremlev and the IOC have been in a legal battle after the IOC dropped the IBA as the governing body over boxing at the Olympics in June 2023.

The IOC cited the IBA’s relationship with Russian state energy company Gazprom, allegations the IBA was rigging matches, a lack of financial transparency and compliance issues with the Olympic charter, according to a 24-page report commissioned by the IOC from May 2023.

“We highly value the sport of boxing. We have an extremely serious problem with IBA because of their governance,” IOC president Thomas Bach told members during a June meeting, according to the Associated Press.

The IBA called the decision a “tremendous error,” and are currently duking it out with the IOC in the Switzerland-based Arbitration Court of Sport, according to Insidethegames.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-boxing-boss-triples-down-on-olympic-gender-drama

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

Ok, that's nice and all, but do you have a source that refutes that particular statement or should I just go off your classic example here of "poisoning the well?"

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

The fact that the IPA seem to be playing evasive on the matter. Here's another news article on it:

"Does Imane Khelif have XY chromosomes?
IBA Russian president, Umar Kremlev, claimed that DNA test results showed the two athletes have XY chromosomes, citing it as the reason they were disqualified in the world championships. The IBA also cited high levels of testosterone in Khelif's system.

However, the test results were never published and Khelif has never disclosed her biological markers, calling the decision a "big conspiracy." The disqualification came after Khelif defeated Russian boxer Azalia Amineva in the 2023 tournament. IBA said it stripped Lin of a bronze medal because it claimed she failed to meet unspecified eligibility requirements in a biochemical test.

The IOC has long criticized the IBA and its governance of the sport and eventually banned the Russian-run organization in 2019. In a statement Friday, the IOC said it stands by the athletes and their eligibility to compete, noting that the boxing association's own documents say the decision was made unilaterally by the IBA's secretary general.

Those documents also say the IBA went on to resolve at a meeting that it should “establish a clear procedure on gender testing” after it had already disqualified the two fighters."

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/paris-2024-summer-olympics/olympics-boxing-imane-khalif-xy-chromosome-italian-boxer-quit/5662035/

There are alternative explanations given here for their advantages.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

Again, that's great and everything, but do you have a source confirming that the particular statement was false?

Once again,
"The IOC, which is overseeing the boxing competition in Paris, does not test for gender."

What are you basing your presumption that Khelif is XX, or even XXX/XXY on?

""So, the summation of this conversation is that you have no source for your claims but you discount a statement from the President of the IBA based on some unknown reason and therefore we should assume Khelif does not have XY chromosomes, ignoring on the record statements to the contrary? We should also ignore empirical evidence of Khelif forcing a surrender of a world class female boxer in under a minute and discount that purely due to the skill of the Algerian who was previously disqualified from female competitions?"

"I refuse to answer any questions until you tell me why the IBA are not backing up the claims of their president.""

Have you decided to answer those questions yet? Your refusal to do so doesn't qualify as a repudiation, or even an answer.

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>What are you basing your presumption that Khelif is XX, or even XXX/XXY on?

I don't hold an assumption either way. I just don't know anymore than you do.

>Have you decided to answer those questions yet? Your refusal to do so doesn't qualify as a repudiation, or even an answer.

The IBA has not released any public records, and their President clearly has a bone to grind and notably - the IBA seems sheepish in directly confirming the claims of their president.

Their physical advantage could have multiple explanations.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"I don't hold an assumption either way. I just don't know anymore than you do."

I've read articles that detail how the President of the IBA has described Khelif as XY as well as information about how Khelif did not contest a decision relating to "her" disqualification from an event restricted to female participants. I also watched an individual that appeared to demonstrate male characteristics force the surrender of a contemporary world class boxer in under one minute. What are you going off of here?

"The IBA has not released any public records, and their President clearly has a bone to grind..."

Are you claiming that this so called "bone to grind" is directed against this particular Algerian athlete? Thus far I'm not convinced, based on what you've presented.

"Their physical advantage could have multiple explanations."

Could, would, should...do you have anything concrete here to present beyond your unsubstantiated doubt?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>I've read articles that detail how the President of the IBA has described Khelif as XY as well as information about how Khelif did not contest a decision relating to "her" disqualification from an event restricted to female participants.

And the details of the IBAs tests have not been made public, and the IBA is sheepish on backing him up.

>Are you claiming that this so called "bone to grind" is directed against this particular Algerian athlete? Thus far I'm not convinced, based on what you've presented.

No, I was thinking more against the IOC and the west generally.

https://x.com/umarkremlev/status/1818633618371076546

>Could, would, should...do you have anything concrete here to present beyond your unsubstantiated doubt?

My doubt is as equally substantiated as your confidence. We do not know what conditions they have. The tests are not known to the IOC or released publicly.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"And the details of the IBAs tests have not been made public, and the IBA is sheepish on backing him up."

The President of the organization has provided statements affirming that Khelif was tested as possessing genetic XY chromosomes. Would you put more value in that statement if it came from the person that mops the IBA floors?

"My doubt is as equally substantiated as your confidence. We do not know what conditions they have. The tests are not known to the IOC or released publicly"

Again, my position is based both on sources I've already disclosed and on me watching this particular boxer participate in the ring. Where is your position derived from?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>The President of the organization has provided statements affirming that Khelif was tested as possessing genetic XY chromosomes. Would you put more value in that statement if it came from the person that mops the IBA floors?

I put little confidence in him because of his clear anti-west bias and anger at the IOC. There are no public test results.

>Again, my position is based both on sources I've already disclosed and on me watching this particular boxer participate in the ring. Where is your position derived from?

Your position is based on Kremler, and that's it.

The data is not public, or been reviewed by any independent body of any kind. And the IOC does not trust their conclusions either. Why should I trust the IBA over the IOC?

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"I put little confidence in him because of his clear anti-west bias and anger at the IOC. There are no public test results."

Is Algeria included in the "West?" What anger are you referring to here? Is it a stance against trans athletes by any chance?

"Your position is based on Kremler, and that's it.

The data is not public, or been reviewed by any independent body of any kind. And the IOC does not trust their conclusions either. Why should I trust the IBA over the IOC?"

Again, why should I assume that this individual has some sort of vendetta against this particular Algerian athlete?

"The data is not public, or been reviewed by any independent body of any kind."

Are you aware that an individual's medical history is considered private information, and that the IOC explicitly does not disclose such information, including results of genetic testing, for that reason? I am, and I therefore defer to the conclusion drawn by the IBA, as disclosed by the President of the organization.

Again, what are YOU going off of here to substantiate your claim to the contrary?

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>Is Algeria included in the "West?" What anger are you referring to here? Is it a stance against trans athletes by any chance?

No, but the IOC is mostly west. And he has an ax to grind against them. And he clearly holds anti-LGBT positions.

>Are you aware that an individual's medical history is considered private information, and that the IOC explicitly does not disclose such information, including results of genetic testing, for that reason? I am, and I therefore defer to the conclusion drawn by the IBA, as disclosed by the President of the organization.

But apparently not the IOC.

Also, your XX-XY determinism seems incredibly archaic and doesn't account for intersex cases.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-intersex

https://thisisintersex.org/basis/do-chromosomes-determine-your-sex/

https://www.health.com/condition/sexual-health/what-is-intersex

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"No, but the IOC is mostly west. And he has an ax to grind against them. And he clearly holds anti-LGBT positions."

You didn't answer my question: How does Algeria qualify as a target for Kremlev's supposed "bone to pick" with the West, and why was this particular athlete singled out as such an example? Also, why does Khelif satisfy your categorical quality of an "LGBT" target? Is this some random occurrence?

"Also, your XX-XY determinism seems incredibly archaic and doesn't account for intersex cases.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-intersex

https://thisisintersex.org/basis/do-chromosomes-determine-your-sex/

https://www.health.com/condition/sexual-health/what-is-intersex";

Are you now claiming that Khelif is intersex? Otherwise, I'm not sure how any of that pertains to this discussion. If you have a source that proves Khelif is intersex, please provide it.

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>You didn't answer my question: How does Algeria qualify as a target for Kremlev's supposed "bone to pick" with the West, and why was this particular athlete singled out as such as such a example? Also, why does Khelif satisfy your categorical quality of an "LGBT" target? Is this some random occurrence?

People were instantly spreading rumours and fake news that Khelif was MTF. People are still doing now despite zero evidence for this. The IBA was removed by the Olympics, replaced due to his ties with Gazprom and Vladimir Putin. He clearly holds anti-LGBT positions and expressed them in a Twitter video. I doubt he cares much about this specific athlete, but it's a good opportunity from his perspective to dunk on the IOC.

>Are you now claiming that Khelif is intersex? Otherwise, I'm not sure how any of that pertains to this discussion. If you have a source that proves otherwise, please provide it.

I'm saying they may well be, but that doesn't make them a man as you initially alleged. You can regard these people as women whilst saying that maybe there should be questions over their inclusion in said events.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

"The IBA was removed by the Olympics, replaced due to his ties with Gazprom and Vladimir Putin. He clearly holds anti-LGBT positions and expressed them in a Twitter video. I doubt he cares much about this specific athlete, but it's a good opportunity from his perspective to dunk on the IOC."

Again, why was this particular athlete singled out here for "anti-LGBT" positions. You do realize that this statement is suggestive that the individual we are talking about here is not a traditional biological female, don't you?

Nevermind the anti-Russian sentiment currently permeating Western culture, a Russian culture that is in direction opposition to the LGBT values currently fronted by the West. I supposed we should just discount everything they say, because they are the bad guys, right? I mean look at Ukraine, right? It couldn't possibly be because trans athletes, or even those "females" with XY chromosomes, are being pushed by LGBT influences in the West as being equivalent to XX females, including sports inclusion, could it? We should whole heartedly adopt the precepts presented by the "West" because they are the good guys, right?

Am I missing anything from your assessment here?

"I'm saying they may well be, but that doesn't make them a man as you initially alleged. You can regard these people as women whilst saying that maybe there should be questions over their inclusion in said events."

Call "them" what you want to; "they" have no business being in the same boxing ring as an XX female.

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

>Again, why was this particular athlete singled out here for "anti-LGBT" positions. You do realize that this statement is suggestive that the individual we are talking about here is not a traditional biological female, don't you?

More opportunity for him to dig a nail in than caring about the specific individual, as I've said repeatedly. Of course I am speculating here, but the dude clearly has an ax to grind over the IOC and has Russian government ties.

>Call "them" what you want to; "they" have no business being in the same boxing ring as an XX female.

Perhaps. I haven't ever disputed that part. Although no-one really cared when Michael Phelps was destroying the opposition for years in swimming. Not quite the same but he had genetic advantages.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

Let's pause this for now.

Would you by any chance like to join me in a game of Overwatch? It's a shot in the dark, and I'm a few drinks in, but I assure you I'll still play at least at a diamond level. PM me if you're down and I'll give you my username.

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

If you know the answer, you can correct me on this. But I've heard that the seemingly typical XX and XY may also be aneuploidies to individuals whose bodies don't match these pairings.

If we can categorize people as male or female, despite having X, XXY, XXX chromosomes, that means their chromosomes (specifically theirs, not everybody's) are NOT the ultimate deciding factor for their sexes. Maybe it's determined by the majority of their physical bodes. I don't know.

Could this also include Khelif, who has XY chromosomes but a sufficiently female anatomy?

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 4 months ago

Unless you have an alternative in mind, chromosomes are the bright line standard for a designation of biological sex.

XY = male = beating the shit out of an XX woman world class boxer and forcing a forfeit in under a minute

As an aside, I like your style. Keep up the good work.

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[–] [deleted] 4 months ago

They most likely suffer from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_2_deficiency

People with this condition are biologically men, however due to their bodies inability to convert Testosterone into Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), they fail to develop normal male genitalia prenatally. They're often born with amibiguous or female looking genitals and will be considered female and raised as girls... it's often only at puberty where people will realize they're not actually female as they won't follow a typical female puberty (breast growth, periods), instead they'll start looking like a man (muscle mass, bodily proportions, facial features, voice, etc).

Long story short, they're a man without a penis and external testicles. They were likely raised as a girl and identify as a woman.

One of the most famous people with this condition is another controversial athlete, Caster Semenya.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

Thanks for sharing this.

So far as I know, it hasn't been confirmed yet what Imane Khelif has. Guess we'll have to wait for more info.

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[–] [deleted] 4 months ago

a cock

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[–] jriley555 (8117) 4 months ago

Which puts them in a special category, developmentally - I can see a case for excluding them from competition with xx women on a similar basis that exists for trans women. They are developmentally favored, much as are men, or actually pretty much exactly as men, being in their essence men, only lacking the external genitalia.

I reject all the disinformation, hatred & emotionalism that these 'issues' give rise to. Its all, fundamentally, about keeping things fair, which will then lead to some folks being 'unfairly' excluded. These folks could always, after all, compete with the other men.

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[–] [deleted] 4 months ago

its a dude whos mentally ill.

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[–] VladPutin (1582) 4 months ago

You certainly meet that criteria, Lilmikey.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2627) 4 months ago

Apparently, this "DNA test" was done by a Kremlin backed boxing organization just a couple days after she beat a Russian champ, and both the test methodology and the results were kept confidential by them, yet they disqualified her all the same!

No way does that pass the smell test!

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[–] BKB (9878) 4 months ago

Then what's Lia(m) Thomas, the swimmer who also insists on crashing the women's swim team?? I've read where Riley Gaines states the guy sports a boner in the locker room, so how does this abnormal shit work where he's using a female locker room?? 🙄

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[–] Skavau (15993) 4 months ago

You are an idiot. These people in the olympics may have an intersex condition. They aren't trans.

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[–] arcticdragon (520) 4 months ago

If Lia Thomas is confirmed to be intersex, there may be more to discuss after all. But if Thomas is just a top to bottom, inside and out, male person who just wants to be a girl, then, well, there's not much else to discuss, it's exactly what it already sounds like.

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