MovieChat Forums > Pocahontas (1995) Discussion > The Black Sheep of the Disney Renaissanc...

The Black Sheep of the Disney Renaissance


I mean, you had a bunch of talented animators working on a movie based on historical fiction and the only result is just a bland romance story that doesn't even have a focus on which tone to go for (for instance, adding animal sidekicks for comic relief that add little to nothing, a dark moment where a side character dies, etc.), characters that are one-dimensional, and musical lyrics that are hilariously stupid (still better than the music/lyrics for Disney's Wish though). That being said, it's not entirely godawful as it still does have beautiful animation, great voice work from everyone involved, and Colors of the Wind, while preachy in places, is a decent song.

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This was never a favorite of mine but it's certainly better than Aristocats or Oliver and Company.

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As crappy as those films are, if I had to choose I'd rather watch them again than Pocahontas.

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They knew Colors in the Wind was the only thing worth seeing which is why they showed the entire song in the trailer

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It's Colors of the Wind, but yeah

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Sure.

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oh rueally? sou colours off de wind was de ounly dhing worth seein`?

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Yeah.

What else?

Mel Gibson singing?

Poco’s skirt wasn’t even short enough to grab interest.

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dere was many other dhings worth seein`in de moouvie.

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The soundtrack is the best part (love it) and the animation is beautiful. There is no plot, though, and most of the characters are uninteresting. And yes, the tone is also inconsistent.

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Yeah. Plus a certain line from the reprisal of Steady As A Beating Drum is so hilariously stupid.

"That's why rivers live so long."

Like, what the ****?

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The soundtrack is the best part (love it) and the animation is beautiful. There is no plot, though, and most of the characters are uninteresting. And yes, the tone is also inconsistent.


So you don`t like the movie, Stratego?

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I enjoy the movie in general, but I can't deny it has some issues.

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Okay. I was just wondering. What is your favorite part of the movie?

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Hmm, difficult to say. I like the music sequences of Just Around the Riverbend and Colors of the Wind, but I might go with the ending. The music is so powerful and the animation beautiful.

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Okay. Just wondering, which Disney movie from the Renaissance is your favorite?

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Beauty and the Beast.

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Okay. It wasn`t my favorite growing up, but in my adult years I`ve learned to love it.

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Disney invested huge amounts into this movie, they wanted it to be their masterpiece. They didn't expected much on Lion King and let it to the B-Team, while Pocahontas got all the best animators. And true, Pocahontas has a wonderful art style, but it also killed for me the Disney Renaissance. Good art and nice music does not save a movie.

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Not to mention Pocahontas is a bland title character compared to Hercules, who at the very least, had a character arc.

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Hercules shares imo a lot of the problems Pocahontas had. But it had very good side characters.

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Yeah especially Phil who I think is a very underrated side character.

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Hercules shares imo a lot of the problems Pocahontas had.

How so?

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I just don't like the movie much, especially Hercules who is as bland to me as Pocahontas

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But what are your other reasons for disliking Hercules and Pocahontas? Only the title characters?

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I didn't liked the harder drawing style. I prefered the rounder humans, not this realistic ones. I just didn't connect with Disney after Lion King, they only got me back with Lilo & Stitch.

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Should this movie be required viewing in American history classes?

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Depends on their taste.

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No because Pocahontus in real life fell in love with John Rolfe not John Smith. Also the real Pocahontus like a lot of the Native Americans died from the ilnesses that the English Settlers unintionally gave them.

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No because Pocahontus in real life fell in love with John Rolfe not John Smith. Also the real Pocahontus like a lot of the Native Americans died from the ilnesses that the English Settlers unintionally gave them.

hur name is pocahontas, not pocahontus.

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Spell check on a phone does not work cause it changes every stinking word you type into a word you don't want.

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oh, sorry...

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Only in schools where they also teach Creationism as a valid possibiltity.
If you want to show something related to Pocahontas in school, I would rather suggest The New World in a shorter cut (except you like to torture kids with full exposure of Terence Malick's style of filming)

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Well, despite how Pocahontas is essentially perceived as being the Black Sheep of the Renaissance, it`s still not a universally hated as it could`ve been. While it`s been stuck with a lackluster reputation (and not only for it`s controversy), I`ve still seen love for it, anyways. And frankly, just as with The Hunchback of Notre Dame, it`s fanbase has grown througout the years.

With that said, when I first saw Pocahontas as a child, I was so mesmerized with it, because I fell so completely in love with it. However, later viewings made me realize it`s flaws: That`s it`s dramatically uneven and a little too po-faced, preachy and serious. And as an teenager and adult I`ve also realized more of it`s flaws: The plotholes in the script, the mediocre voice acting and how the characterizations (with the exception of Meeko and Thomas) aren`t as compelling. Still, I have a soft spot for it, because of the animation, music and cinematography.

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Good for you. I, for one, have a soft spot for The Pebble and the Penguin, another 1995 animated feature in spite of it's own reputation. The musical lyrics are way better written and don't sound as stupid as "That's why rivers live so long.", the characters have more charm, and the Drake is a WAY better villain than Governor Ratcliffe who's just your typical snooty pompous douche who wants to be rich.

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Fair enough. But did you mean your response as an insult?

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Not really. I fully respect your opinion. It's just that this movie just isn't one of my favorites of the Renaissance. That's all.

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Thanks. But at least you`re not alone of thinking that Pocahontas isn`t the best among the Renaissance.

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Idc about the Disney Renaissance, I love the movie and would rate it far above a lot of Disney "masterpieces". Maybe not being a U.S citizen and therefore being somewhat removed from the history of the film at the time of watching helped, but I've never understood why it wasn't rated higher. Most Disney princesses have shortcomings, but Pocahontas is at least cheerful and self-possessed, and that's something I appreciated a lot the first time I watched it, because that was missing in a lot of the leads that came before her - she got to be the hero of the story without having to get married or leave home.

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Well, unfortunately, the other Disney princesses have their own unique personalities especially Belle, Jasmine, Meg, and Mulan.

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There's nothing unfortunate about it, most of them have their own unique personalities and that's cool. But imo Belle was a snob, that was her entire personality. She thought she was better than people because she could read, but she was re-reading fairy tales, not epic novels. The other three are great, and Mulan is one of the best Disney leads imo, if not the best, but her character mirrors Pocahontas in a lot of ways.

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What I think is that Maurice had once had money but lost it, so he and Belle had to move to that little town.
But the fact that they still were from a higher social class made it hard for Belle to relate to the townfolks.
Even so, it is not true that she only read fairytales.
She had clearly learned words like "primeval" somewhere and read "Romeo & Juliet" with Beast in a deleted scene.

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A lot of people blamed Michael Eisner (CEO of Disney at the time) and his bad judgement for choosing to greenlight movies like this into becoming Disney's main animated features for the mid-90s. HOND and Hercules are also seen as bad ideas on his part. All three stink of PC and historical revisionism. Not as bad as the woke era, but definitely prototypes for it.

Granted, we all still went to the theaters, watched Pocahontas, learned the songs, bought the VHS tapes, the dolls, the action figures, etc. But sooner or later, we started studying history and realized what a disgustingly stupid PC fantasy story this all was. It's kind of on par with "The Greatest Showman," where real-life historical figures were transformed into a fantasy version of themselves, and their story was diluted and transformed into a ridiculous fairy tale, and made the public extremely bothered by the entire thing.

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I'm sorry, but I don't see why you would expect Disney movies to be 100 % historically correct.
They are supposed to be family-friendly entertainment and not documentaries.

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Katzenberg greenlit The Prince of Egypt, The Road to El Dorado, Spirit and El Dorado, I highly doubt he would be a better choice as Eisner (there would be no alternative back then). Both just reached their peak with Lion King. The rescue for Disney was Pixar, but Eisner had little to say back then there. Katzenberg was also not that good on CGI animation movie selection. Antz and Shark Tale are for sure just created because Katzenberg wanted to counter A Bug's Life/Finding Nemo.
And Shrek was just a very very lucky punch. I don't think anyone expected much and as a hot take - I think Chris Farley's passing/hiring Mike Myers was the reason the movie hit gold. Madagascar was beside Shrek 2 the first productions by Dreamworks Animation, which were planned success.

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Prince of Egypt, Road to Eldorado, and Spirit were all produced by Dreamworks, NOT Disney. Shrek and Madagascar were also Dreamworks movies.

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Yes, Dreamworks sKg, the company Katzenberg went after Eisner was unwilling to promote him after Lion King. If Eisner had not been in charge, it had been Katzenberg. I said it, because it proofs, that also the "mastermind" behind the Disney Renaissance made many mistakes.

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Wait, so you're saying the best movies during the first half of the Disney Renaissance were Katzenberg's idea? Not Eisner's? And that's why their quality went down after Lion King? Granted, they still had a few good ones between '97 and '99, but things were definitely going downhill after '94.

Gee, this is all starting to remind me of what happened to Pixar before and after Lasseter left. The movies were great when he was head of the studio, because he had a gift for story-telling and knew what worked and what didn't. The moment he leaves, the quality of the films declines dramatically.

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I would say Eisner and Katzenberg were a good team together! Katzenberg was Eisner's protege at Paramount and together they e.g. revived Star Trek in the 70s and when Eisner moved to Disney he followed. They made Touchstone Pictures a household name and Katzenberg pushed Disney Animation from Basil (ambituous but still flawed) to Roger Rabbit to the glorious masterpieces following.
When Katzenberg wanted to gain more control as Roy Disney wanted to give him, Eisner and him broke, Katzenberg moved to form with Spielberg and Geffen Dreamworks. But at least looking at the resume, he only was able to keep his track record with live action movies.

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Well, getting back to the subject here at hand, I think it was a really bad idea to take three different stories that were not originally meant for kids, and "Disney-fying" them. Pocahontas made a lot of people squirm when it came out, including actual descendants of the Powhatan tribe the real Pocahontas came from, as well as historians who studied the time period extensively, and the woman in question.

Choosing to greenlight those three films made people really annoyed with the company, and Eisner was blamed for that. He was also blamed for allowing "gay days" at the Disney parks as well as introducing alcohol to the parks, which many parents were against because of the nature of the parks. So Eisner may have had a lot of money coming into the company, but he is not perfect at all. When he finally stepped down as CEO of the company, some magazine actually showed a cartoon image of the classic Disney characters throwing him literally out of the park's front gates.

To add insult to injury, the guy who came after him was so much worse, but nobody was aware until years after he'd stuffed the entire studio with activists and finally came out as one himself in the past 8 years.

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To be fair, Lion King is Hamlet with cute lion cubs.

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Everyone says that. Some claim that the story was stolen from an old cartoon with a white lion in it.

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According to The Lion King's Wikipedia page, the story was both modeled primarily on Hamlet as well as the Bible story of Joseph and Moses.

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I know. And it was a huge success, and the characters are still popular.

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IT TOTALLY IS...KIMBA THE WHITE LION.

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I watched Kimba as a kid, was one of the shows which was repeated here every second year. Kimba and the Jungle Book anime are somewhat interwoven in my memories. Kimba had a great art style, but at least the parts I remember are generic 70s anime. Of course it has similar themes, but hey, its both about lions in Africa. *shrug*
And yeah, of course it can have inspired the producers. Rob Minkoff (director), Don Hahn (Producer) and Jonathan Roberts (screenplay) are definitely in the age range who could know the show from TV as kid, but most involved in the initial production are all born around 1950, which makes them likely too old for first time and too young for having kids by the time. Sanders and Chapman (first depicted as directors) would be also good fits. So yes, possible, but I am not that convinced, except the normal research stuff.

What I highly doubt is that Disney didn't know about the anime. It was too succesful for this in Japan and at least Europe, that at least someone in the production must have informed them this exist, if they haven't known.

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