• EDIT •
This comment from below is probably the most honest woke answer you're gonna find:
A black Tinker Bell makes more sense than a white one. We all know there were tons of fairies (and mermaids like in The Little Mermaid) in African mythology. They have an incredibly rich and superior history too all other cultures.
In a nutshell, from a woke point of view, Black Africa is culturally superior to every other culture. Wokes think that it makes sense to blackwash mythological European creatures (like Tinker Bell or the Little Mermaid) and replace them by African ones, since they consider the African ones to be superior.
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Do we really need ANOTHER Peter Pan reboot movie? Can't Disney come up with something original?
Tinker Bell is to be played by Yara Shahidi from ABC Black-ish (2014) and Grown-ish (2018). Disney owns ABC, so they like to cross-promote their own shows, to get more people to watch them. Maybe this movie is just to provide more garbage content for the new Disney-Plus streaming service.
Why not just do another reboot of Spider-Man? Isn't it time for yet another one?
They're blackwashing another (more) white character, or fantasy character based in a white character. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. That's reality.
Disney is woke, or better said, the company is controlled by wokes. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. That's reality.
It's true that the opening comment is slightly derogatory (I don't appreciate wokes, obviously), but that's all. It's not insulting by any means, and it doesn't include any preconceived opinions, leaving space for debate. I edited to include one opinion posted in a comment, and I didn't even agree with that opinion: it showed the woke point of view, which I think to be interesting.
Intelligent people don't have a problem dealing with facts and reality. If you have a problem with it, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you can't call yourself an intelligent person.
The opposite of Woke is not "racist". It's Non-Woke. The same the opposite of Christian is not "satanist". It's Non-Christian.
I understand that many religions use to demonize Non-Believers. That happens in Christianity, it happens Islam and of course, it happens in Wokeness. Anyway, explaining it to a Believer is usually a waste of time. 🙄
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I'm not sure why we're conflating the ontological debate with a social issue.
Religion/atheism is one thing. Being "woke" is not a pejorative to anyone other than those taking umbrage at the fact that traditionally racist/prejudicial words/actions are being encumbered.
We can have a separate debate about religion. And nobody should demonize anybody else. That's the entire point.
I'm not sure why we're conflating the ontological debate with a social issue
Nobody is bringing any ontological debate. Please, don't use words just because you think they're cool.
Being "woke" is not a pejorative
Please, don't assign to me words I haven't said. I didn't say that 'Woke' was or should be a pejorative term. It's a term that names the mainstream ideology/religion¹ in modern left. If you have a better one, please let us know.
We can have a separate debate about religion.
I don't see the point. I'm not talking about religion in general but about one in particular. Disney is not blackwashing characters because of Hinduism or Judaism, but because of Wokeness.
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¹ Some people think of it like an ideology, I think it's much closer to a religion
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If you really dont understand the difference between a religion and a term that describes a situation in which people are cognizant of previously prejudicial terms, then I'm not sure why we are even having a discussion.
If you really dont understand the difference between a religion and a term that describes a situation in which people are cognizant of previously prejudicial terms, then I'm not sure why we are even having a discussion.
You're not cognizant of shit. You're just a religious guy following some trendy new faith. reply share
THE ONLY PROBLEM IS YOUR HANGUPS WITH BLACK PEOPLE AND GOD KNOWS WHO ELSE...TINKERBELL CAN BE ANY COLOR...AS CAN ANY CHARACTER REALLY...HISTORICAL/ACTUAL PEOPLE NOT WITHSTANDING...YOU DONT SEE THE ACTOR/PERSON...YOU SEE THE COLOR/TEAM YOU IMAGINE THEY PLAY FOR...RATIONAL PEOPLE JUST SEE OTHER PEOPLE.
I don't believe that you know enough about Republicans to be any kind of expert on what they are or not.
You are much more racist than any Republican, that I have encountered.
The funny thing is that he's calling millions of white people "the dumbest on Earth" in order to insult me and... he's not even hitting me 😄. I always identified with what used to be Liberalism and Social Democracy in the 50s/60s and I haven't changed my mind.
Remakes are almost always a bad idea. Mulan 2020 is proof of that.
However, can I just ask, when are POC allowed to act in films without it being considered woke?
It seems to me that if they’re playing characters in the past who are not enslaved, they’re apparently representing history inaccurately. If they’re playing modern characters in a modern story, then it’s a diversity plot. If they’re playing non-human beings that were once played by Caucasian actors, they’re disrupting expectations. And when they are playing characters who’re being racially discriminated against, they’re over-exaggerating for sympathy.
I grew up in the 90s, when no one said a word about the POC featured in films like Mortal Kombat and Sister Act, so I really don't understand where this shift in thinking about POC in film happened.
"POC" (what a creepy term, to be honest) are completely free to act in any film, it's the agenda that people are tired of.
"It seems to me that if they’re playing characters in the past who are not enslaved, they’re apparently representing history inaccurately."
Plenty of non-enslaved "POC" in the past, but movies always seem to go for historically inaccurate depictions.
"If they’re playing modern characters in a modern story, then it’s a diversity plot."
Totally depends on the plot.
"If they’re playing non-human beings that were once played by Caucasian actors, they’re disrupting expectations."
No clue what that even means.
"And when they are playing characters who’re being racially discriminated against, they’re over-exaggerating for sympathy."
Well, how many times does it have to be about racism? It's getting tiresome. Is there nothing else to black characters?
"I grew up in the 90s, when no one said a word about the POC featured in films like Mortal Kombat and Sister Act, so I really don't understand where this shift in thinking about POC in film happened."
That shift happened when the shift in Hollywood's thinking about "POC in film" happened. If you really grew up in the 90s, I can't believe you can't see the difference between those movies and movies nowadays.
People are simply used to seeing Tinkerbell as a white girl, so I guess that some people are just weirded out.
But they would also feel that the actress only got the part because she's black.
Popular? I had never even heard of her. Now Zendaya would've made more sense.
Lol, no one would call it an agenda if this just happened one time. But it's something Disney keeps on doing while at the same time constantly making statements on their diversity policy and political issues.
But what exactly happened? Disney hiring an actress who's non-white? Disney has showcased diverse casting for ages, that's true - Cinderella (1997) comes to mind. I don't see that as an agenda.
No, Disney constantly blackwashing white characters and going on about diversity, racism and white privilege. You don't honestly think it's just a concidence after so many times?
That Cinderella movie was mostly a star vehikel for Brandy, but yeah, it was definitely a case of some weird-ass multicultural casting. Still, it didn't seem to be part of some bigger agenda, except for the cliché girlpower aspect perhaps.
If you really grew up in the 90s, I can't believe you can't see the difference between those movies and movies nowadays.
Agreed. You see old movies with Eddy Murphy or Whoopy Goldberg, and you can barely find any agenda. Compared to modern Hollywood, it's like night and day.
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I have to agree with Stratego. I see nothing wrong about POC getting parts to play.
Except that if it becomes obvious that there's an agenda behind the casting choice, some people are bound to react.
However, can I just ask, when are POC allowed to act in films without it being considered woke?
If you're talking about historical film, well, you have lots of possible stories in Africa. I would love to see stories that happen in pre-colonial Africa.
Actually, it's interesting living as we live in a woke era, there's not a single movie or series set in pre-colonial Africa. That's food for thoughts. It seems to me that Blacks only matter when they're a mean to demonize whites. In my opinion, the core foundation of Wokeness is not pro-Black or pro-minorities, but anti-white.
Movies in XIXth and XXth century, for example, you could set stories in black communities. There's lot of stories that can be told about those communities and people, and drama and relationships, and people working and loving, beyond the oh evil racist whites!. Again, I can't remember a single movie or series set there which is not about "evil whites", if it doesn't demonize whites, Hollywood is not interested.
Modern day, you can use Black characters, but make them feel real. I see Hollywood, and Black characters talk and behave as middle class east coast whites, while whites talk and behave as psychopaths or cucks. It seems that the main goal is to demonize whites.
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I'd love to see movies using mythological folklore elements. Something similar to what China does with Mythological Ancient China, or Europe with middle age fantasy stories.
Why hasn't Disney done an adaptation of an African fairy tale yet? Anansi is probably one of the more well-known mythological creatures. Instead they take a European fairy tale like The Princess and the Frog and throw in a bunch of non-white characters. Why???
That's a good point though, that so few movies and TV shows are made about pre-colonial Africa.
It must be that the producers don't think that that such stories are marketable enough.
On the contrary, I think it would be very marketable.
I think the main reason is ideological: it would be extremely difficult to include white guys being the official villains, and that's a deal-breaker. C'mon, even in the Aladdin remake they included one Danish white guy as a villain, and that was a One Thousand and One Nights story!
Now, I believe that the producers think that stories about Africans would only attract niche audiences. That is why you don't see much of them in mainstream Western media.
Unlike you, I don't believe that they are as nefarious as that. But sure, they want to make money and do lip service to the popular ideology of today.
I don't know. Those movies or series wouldn't be extremely expensive. And I'd be something new, which is perfect when everybody had a bit too much of superhero movies.
I understand that they don't want to throw $200 million out of the blue in a big production. However, you could make a show with $2-3 million per episode maximum (Vikings was $4 million). It's not like they couldn't start cheap to see how it works...
Yes, but it takes just one hit movie to change all that, then they'd all jump on the bandwagon. But I honestly don't think Hollywood have the inclination for it, and these days sales in China mean so much more to them.
I remember 90's films too, when Wesley Snipes would star in films, or Denzel Washington or Will Smith, and no one would mention their race at all or care about it, I'd usually just enjoy the films they were in, but then political correctness (Which has transformed into Wokeism) became overbearing with the use of social media and everyone accused everyone of being racist and the chattering classes began to virtue signal at every opportunity to prove how virtuous they are apparently.
These days with blackwashing rampant in historical films it takes away the believability if you know anything about history at all, what’s the point of spending a huge fortune on historically correct costumes, props and hiring historical researchers if the cast look out of time, its like watching a 50’s or 60’s sword and sandals epic and noticing they have hairstyles not fitting the time period.
There are decent historical stories for Hollywood to tell concerning black history, take for instance Yasuke a true story about an African Samurai in 16th Century Japan, currently in pre-production, a role which was going to go to Chadwick Boseman.
I agree that identity politics is more pronounced in film and TV now, but it's always been there, yet people seem to have more of a problem with it now than they ever did. By today's standards Wesley Snipe's Blade is a very woke film - so why were there no complaints when it was released? When Alien came out, people praised its "woke-ness." To me, I really only take issue with a woke film if it's a bad film. Ghostbusters for example was a bad film, but the premise of 4 female ghost busters doesn't bother me.
As for believability in historical films, US actors employing British accents to play ancient Greeks and Romans and pretty much any other nationality is way more rampant than POC, so how do you ever suspend belief when watching historical films? You get used to it because it is common. Make POC common in historical films and then people can get used to it.
I would totally watch a film about Yasuke. Sad about Chadwick Boseman.
The difference is they used to create a new character to make the POC version of something. Blade is a new character. He's not a black James Bond. Ripley is a new character, she's not a female Doctor Who. Even Supergirl has never been a female Superman, she's a different character that can co-exist with Superman. Miles Morales Spider-Man is a distinct character that can exist together alongside Peter Parker. People never had problems with that.
Also, "woke" movies are not just about the characters color skins or gender. I think the more important matter is how they are represented. Most villains and evil characters are almost always white men. Most white men are almost always depicted as stupid, incapable, racist or as cucks.
Even I, an Asian, notice this. And I probably watch more Chinese movies than most of people here in MovieChat. What I see in Chinese movies is pretty much the same. Chinese good. Japanese bad. That's it.
This makes movies bad. It's cringeworthy and basically makes any movie predictable. It's the real problem. People just focuses too much about the white characters made black. Or in Ghost in the Shell case, an Asian character made white. Because focusing on those makes better click-bait articles.
That said, I personally, don't have problem with Hollywood making bad movies. They were always making loads and loads of bad movies (alongside a few good ones.) I simply choose to not watch them. I don't get all the rage and the complainings.
I cannot fathom how "hardcore nerds" whining that they ruin "our" Star Wars or something ridiculous like that. It's Disney's property. They can make it in any way they want. Don't like it? Make your own sci-fi. No one is stopping you. No one was stopping George Lucas either.
New or old, there’s still no monopoly on Tinkerbell’s appearance. Tinkerbell was initially played by a light reflected off a mirror. Then she was an animated character. Then she was played by various actresses, including Julia Roberts and Ludivine Sagnier, who look nothing alike. There’s no legitimate reason she can’t be played by any actress of any ethnicity.
Also, the idea that old characters need to be played by the same race doesn’t always hold up. If there’s a significant reason, sure. For example, Michael B. Jordan playing Apollo Creed’s son Adonis makes sense. But a fairy is a mythical creature that doesn’t require any specific race.
As for movie villains, they’re often played by white men because white men have dominated the film industry since its inception. That’s not new to film. Even foreign characters are played by white men. If it’s a problem for fictional Bond to be black, isn’t it more of a problem for Joaquin Phoenix to play real Roman Emperor Commodus? Also, how does this make movies bad? Most “greatest movie villains of all time” lists are filled by white men. The Joker, Hannibal Lector, Agent Smith, Jack Torrance, Keyser Söze, Norman Bates – all of these are recognizable and beloved villains.
However, when it comes to POC playing villains, that’s also not new. Just look the Yellow Peril trope or the Angry Black Man trope or refer to this article: https://www.dw.com/en/hollywood-movies-stereotypes-prejudice-data-analysis/a-47561660 We still get plenty of villains played by POC. In fact, criminals are disproportionately played by black actors, second probably only to Latin or Asian actors. Examples that come to mind immediately are Anton in No Country for Old Men, Jafar in Aladdin, Richmond Valentine in Kingsman: The Secret Service, the Hmong street gang in Gran Turino, Sue Ann in Ma, Alonzo in Training Day, Johnny Tran in The Fast and the Furious, not to mention all the terrorist roles that have gone to POC.
Then she was played by various actresses, including Julia Roberts and Ludivine Sagnier, who look nothing alike.
They don't need to look alike, they just need to look European. Tinkerbell is a fairy, a creature from the European folklore.
As for movie villains, they’re often played by white men because white men have dominated the film industry since its inception. That’s not new to film. Even foreign characters are played by white men.
Is that a joke???? We're talking about modern movies, where white positive characters are often blackwashed or replaced by blacks/hispanics, while the villains remain white.
We still get plenty of villains played by POC. In fact, criminals are disproportionately played by black actors, second probably only to Latin or Asian actors.
Fairies have multiple origins, not only European ones. For example, Japan folklore calls fairies by various names, such as Yōsei or Kijimuna. They also didn't always look human, even in European folklore, so why would they have to look European?
We're talking about modern movies, where white positive characters are often blackwashed or replaced by blacks/hispanics, while the villains remain white
I don't see this happening often. It happens sometimes, often in films where a POC plays a friend or lover while the majority of the cast remains white, including protagonist, antagonist and side characters.
Fairies have multiple origins, not only European ones. For example, Japan folklore calls fairies by various names, such as Yōsei or Kijimuna.
Nope. Yosei are not fairies, the same Jiang Xi are not vampires. You could use those terms because they are quite of "equivalents". And in the case of the Yosei, it'd be more appropriate to use "spirits".
I don't see this happening often. It happens sometimes
It happens in most of modern movies.
Of course, it's not always the standard blackwashing, I didn't get into detail. You have different patterns
• You can blackwash the main character, like Little Mermaid
• You can replace the main character with a black version, like SpiderVerse
• You can replace the main character with a female version, like Dark Fate or Ghostbusters
• You can keep the original white male, but make him a cuck and make the black/hispanic/female be there to save his ass, like Gretel & Hansel. reply share
Like I said, because looks like you did not read what I wrote, I was just saying that Blade and Ripley are new characters, specifically created as black and female, respectively, because you used them as examples. I don't have any problem with black Tinkerbell, or a black Bond, female Star Wars, etc. Their IPs, their way. Whatever they want to do with their properties is none of my business.
Also, as I said, the whole race and gender swapping is actually not the big deal. What I don't like is that "woke" movies keep making white men characters that are weak or evil or stupid or useless, etc. Doesn't have to be the big bad villains. It's exactly how the Chinese cinema does to Japanese characters. Which I consider simply a bad storytelling.
If you can't see this in recent movies (it is a new trend) that even I, again, a POC myself, can clearly see, I don't have anything to say anymore. Because obviously we have different eyes then. But whatever, I don't want to debate. Enjoy your "woke" movies, just make sure you pay for the tickets and buy the DVDs because they keep flopping and bombing away.
I read and addressed everything you wrote. But we can agree to disagree. I will keep enjoying movies that entertain me and disliking those that don't, thanks for the permission.
If she keeps the pixie cut, the short skirt, and is still horny for Peter then I'm OK with it. It's like Nick Fury. They kept the patch and attitude, so OK. It doesn't frost me like what they did to Domino and Valkyrie.
The actress isn't sexy enough. That is the real issue.