MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > I don't know why people treat history bo...

I don't know why people treat history books as if they're fact.


There is no way any of us can know what actually happened. It's all hypothetical. Inaccurate information can be passed down. Biased information can be passed down.

We have advanced technology now which makes it easier for us to know things, and yet we still don't know who the Zodiac killer is or what really happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, but people expect us to believe that things that happened before 1900 are accurate because they were documented that way. I mean, for all we know American slavery started because some black guy stole some white guy's horse, or that the declaration of independence was signed without pants on and they didn't want that information getting out there so they lied about it.

I'm not buying into these shenanigans that we have to open a history book to understand it.

reply

There's that old saying, "history is written by the victors", which is often attributed to Winston Churchill, even though the phrase is actually of unknown origin.

reply

To the victa, belongz da spoyuhls! - Bobby Baccalieri

reply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5EwnGUljoI

reply

So sad when he got whacked. 😥

reply

More like history is written by the ones with the most money and power. Vietnam won the Vietnam War, but all we ever hear is the American perspective.

reply

Where do you live? Go to Southeast Asia and you will hear a different perspective.

reply

I'm an American and my personal view is that nobody ever won a war. Over 5000 years of civilization and we can still kill each other in quantity and are somehow able to justify it.

reply

I knew I liked you:)

reply

I always enjoy posting back and forth with you as well. I think if we knew each other in the non-virtual world, you’d be the sort of person I would be good friends with to kick back, have a few drinks and crack each other up.

reply

Thanks. I could use a few drinks, but I have to be up early tomorrow:)

reply

Awwe. How cute... A budding bromance.

reply

I CAN AGREE WITH THAT...THERE ARE NO WINNERS...SOMETHING LIKE WWII...WAS A SUCCESSFUL DEFEAT OF EVIL,BUT THERE WERENT ANY WINNERS...YOURE DEEP BROTHER.🙂

reply

🍻

reply

That very point was emphasized throughout this seriously underrated film I watched today out of boredom and curiosity https://moviechat.org/tt5855164

reply

The U.S. justifies the loss by explaining that it was an "undeclared war," which was somewhat true because Americans were only supposed to be in Vietnam as "advisors."

There are those who claim that had it been an all-out declared war, the U.S. would have achieved an easy victory within a few months.

reply

MY UNCLE,UNTIL THE DAY HE DIED WOULD SAY..."IF THOSE GOVERNMENT FUCKS HAD JUST LET US LOOSE WE COULD HAVE MOPPED THAT JUNGLE UP IN TIME FOR LUNCH."

reply

Are Vietnamese historians allowed to write independent books on Vietnamese history? Somehow I doubt it.

reply


You just stole my thunder, jon.

😎

reply

Oops! Sorry.

reply


No problemo, bro. You were just quicker.

😎

reply

Just how do you understand history unless you are relying on something written?

reply

I don't believe that we should completely look at it if it was fact. If I read a book that said Ringo Starr was the Zodiac killer, we would know that's not true because he's still alive and know what kind of person he is. But what if we hear someone from 1400 killed someone else? There would be no way to prove it other than one source.

reply

There could be several sources...court records, confession records, eye witness records etc.

reply

Even with the information and technology we have now, innocent people are still found guilty and guilty people are still found innocent. I can only imagine the court proceedings that occured without the technology we have now.

reply

Seems like you have turned into a bit of a nihilist. I disagree with you. I think truth exists and we can know it. Not always, not completely, but in many instances. There are matters of opinion, but there are facts which are supported by enough independent sources. We know they had pants on when the signed the Declaration of Independence, and where and when it was signed. We know that the Union and Confederate troops battled at Gettysburg on the 4th of July. Whether the union or confederate were in the right, and whether those generals should have fought there that day are matters of opinion. If you want to deny the basic facts, then you remove the possibility of effective communication.

reply

Sorry if my post sounded like I was completely discrediting history books, I wasn't trying to say that. I'm saying that we will probably never know the truth behind these books and newspapers and we shouldn't look at them as if they are 100% fact. It's perfectly okay if we question it because there is no way we'll ever know the accuracy.

reply

Don't apologies to these guys, you're right. A lot of history is fiction.

reply

Maybe my point didn't get across clear enough.

reply

Garbage post.

reply

Please specify.

reply

Allow me.
Your post is the writings of a crazy conspiracy theorist , and it makes no sense.

it makes no sense becasue you dont specify a particular incident(s) just history as a whole.
Some of it we cant know for sure
some we definitely can

reply

I can't give an example because that's the entire point. It's impossible for us to know what is fact because the technology didn't exist to document it. How do historians know that the documentation provided to them is accurate? How can we know Genghis Khan actually did die while having sex? For all we know, some back in 1227 hated him and wanted to perpetuate an embarrassing story about his death.

reply

" It's all hypothetical." WRONG!
" Inaccurate information can be passed down." TRUE
" Biased information can be passed down." TRUE

Historians piece together information , and verifiy it whare they can , often the same fact will come from 100s of sources and can be attribted "true"

Its a science , and a blind refusal to believe that historical records are possible is not a good starting point for me to even bother with the discussion.

It would be like trying to explain the intricacies of physics , gravity and orbital thrust to a moron who thinks the world is flat , the moon landings were fake and , worst of all , is determined not to see reason despite the evidence staring him in the face.

You are correct it can be recorded in wrong in some circumstances , but you are addressing all history in one go and saying its all bullshit

reply

Historians piece together information , and verifiy it whare they can , often the same fact will come from 100s of sources and can be attribted "true"


This is why I say it's all hypothetical. Historians are piecing together information that they believe to be true. Person A could have documented horses only having 3 legs back in 1400, and a historian could come to that determination, but that doesn't mean that Person A was accurate.

Back in 2003 when the Sars outbreak happened, I kept hearing about how it originated in Canada and Canadians were all to blame. I'm Canadian and didn't find out until about 10 years later that it actually originated from China. Thankfully with the use of the internet I was able to determine that. But it makes you question, how did the rumour of it starting in Canada even happen? What if the Sars outbreak happened in 1400? Would Sars have been known as the Great Canadian Outbreak of 1400?

And I didn't say it's all bullshit, I'm saying how can we really know? We're basing it on the honour system.

reply

"Thankfully with the use of the internet I was able to determine that"
wait what , so history works when you write it? :p


----
" how can we really know?"
multiple sources, extrapolation , science , reasoning , detective work , collating , collaborating , cross referencing and the many many things i postulated were too complicated to go into.
What do you think historians and archelogists do all day?

reply

They come up with a probable conclusion. Can you 100% say that Genghis Khan died while having sex? Or do you just accept it because that was the probability?

reply

I hadnt actually heard that one,
but on that specific case i'd say yes there is a huge possibility that is just a story and not actually true,

reply

So....books are useless? You failed high school history, didn't you?

reply

I didn't say they were useless. I'm saying that just because it's in a book, that doesn't mean it should automatically be believed. Do we believe everything we read in a newspaper? No we don't, so I don't see how a book or a newspaper written before 1900 would be any different.

reply

Well of course not. But, facts are facts, right. Some things aren't up for debate. When people start questioning the moon landing and the shape of the Earth , for example, all hell breaks loose. It's just wrong to teach children otherwise.

reply

LMAO...HE SO DID.😂

reply

People did record things in writing before 1900. Pliny was a Roman historian for example. Archeology also unveils infrmation on ancient cultures.

reply

Yes people did, but that doesn't mean it's accurate. All it takes is one lie to be said, someone falls for it and someone repeats it to someone else. We see it all the time in our own era.

reply

SAM JOE...YOU SEEM TO BE IN NEED OF A VACATION.🙂

reply

The winners write history. I think there is more scope now though especially with the internet.

reply

Exactly.

reply

THEN THE POWER GOES OUT,WAIT A HUNDRED YEARS...OUR TIME WILL BE AS MURKY AS ANY OTHER...THE NET IS A TEMPORARY DISRUPTION TO OUR SPECIES...NOT THE NEW STANDARD.

reply

anne frank wrote about her life and experiences. she didn't win anything.

reply

Is it too soon to make jokes about winning a trip to Bergen-Belsen?

reply

Anne Frank is a great example of history being different depending on who is telling it. They say in North Korea children are taught about Anne Frank but with a spin on the story. They are taught the Jews were cowards who hid, like the Frank family, or surrendered instead of fighting. Then again, who knows if that’s true because I read that in a book.

reply

I think most people accept her portrayal of living under Nazism as accurate.

reply

Of course. I’m just saying history is different in in some places on this planet and this is an extreme example.

reply

there are many books written by americans that are not exactly kind to america's role in the vietnam war. i suggest you read:

The Best and the Brightest by David Halberstam

reply

True but it was also very trendy to oppose that war. More unpopular themes would be atrocities committed by Allied troops against Germans after WW2 for example something you don't hear much about.

In terms of Anne Frank although on a personal level she did not "win", she was part of the winning side. If Germany had of won the war we would not have known anything about her, nothing good anyway.

reply

i am fairly sure anne frank would have preferred to have lived.

reply

Sure but you miss my point. Lets say she had of survived but Germany still won the war. She would not have had any diaries published.

reply

I think knowing the history of slavery in general will help point to the reason why "American" slavery happened.

And what difference would it make, on the historical level, if the signers of the Declaration of Independence was signed in the nude?

yes, the history you learn is flawed but it seems from your presumptions that your valuation of history is flawed as well.

reply

what difference would it make, on the historical level, if the signers of the Declaration of Independence was signed in the nude?


Who said it had to make a difference? The point was that if you found out that it was signed in their underwear that it makes for a funny visual for a historical document. They would lie about it so the optics wouldn't look funny.


I think knowing the history of slavery in general will help point to the reason why "American" slavery happened.

Of course, but how would you even know if the details are correct since it's literally impossible to go back through time to know the truth?

reply