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David1616's Replies
<blockquote>'Race' is not a biological fact, as already explained. IQ is real, although questions of how exactly it is expressed and measured are vexed.</blockquote>
Yes it is. People who deny it do it because they think it makes them good people. Also you didn't answer my question. Do you deny that it is likely Blacks have lower IQs due to genes than Whites?
<blockquote>Exactly; and you are the one favoring correlation and causes in favors of black IQ are you not? In addition your link definitely claims Race/Ethnicity × Heritability interactions' likely do not exist,' which rather rules out your warning about mixed races.</blockquote>
What are you talking about?? You said my source showing no heritability differences between races proves IQ equality. I showed you it proves exact opposite. Do you still not understand what the study I linked shows?
<blockquote>Again, one has to wonder why you are concerned with decrying the supposed lower intelligence of blacks while ignoring stupid white people. One also wonders why people should not be allowed to mingle and marry as they please.</blockquote>
What the hell are you talking about dude?
<blockquote>For those interested, a more nuanced and informed discussion of this issue (ie not Youtube) can be found here</blockquote>
The Black and White IQ gap is not closing. A 2023 study found IQ of Blacks is 17 points lower than Whites.
<blockquote>And how do we objectively determine whether or not someone is discriminating on valid grounds, or invalid grounds?</blockquote>
See if there is a cost in not discriminating.
<blockquote>are you suggesting you're in favor of imposing Nazi-tier legislation to black people?</blockquote>
Why do you think so? I never proposed any laws directly discriminating against Blacks. Just discard anti discrimination laws and have freedom of association.
<blockquote>if you construct policy to alienate a specific group out of respectable society they'll all be more inclined towards criminality.</blockquote>
They are already inclined toward criminality and even more so they were prior to the civil rights movement. Blacks did better in pre 1960s conservative America according to most metrics.
<blockquote>You have given no good argument that it can only be used respectably (per your standards). What you insist without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.</blockquote>
I argued WHY "unwarranted tribalis" would less likely be used in unjustified situation. Because the term literally has the word UNWARRANTED in it. You also never provided any evidence that it wouldn't change things, and you didn't even argue why. You just asserted it.
<blockquote>Such as blackface, for instance. It was already racist.</blockquote>
No it wasn't. It is considered "racist" today by you raised in modern culture. What is "racist" is relative. If this was the 1970s or 1960s it is doubtful weather you would consider black face "racist".
Nobody was saying all White people were "racist" several decades ago. Today it is a common talking point of the leftists.
<blockquote>black people being more inclined to poverty and worse educational outcome makes it more likely they'll fall into a life of crime.</blockquote>
Blacks commit more crime even controlling for poverty, and even if they didn't it wouldn't prove that both their poverty and crime isn't' caused by their genes.
<blockquote>Are you suggesting black people, as a bloc (as if someone is able to speak for them uniformly) should "admit" that they are a problem?</blockquote>
Yes, they should admit their culture is the problem like mainstream Black conservatives admit it.
<blockquote>In most societies, specific races are more likely to be represented at the lower end of the poverty pyramid.</blockquote>
Exactly, there is basically no society where all ethnic groups perform at the same level. Yet according ot the left, racial inequality in America should be seen as an outrage.
Here is data on in group bias among liberals and conservatives. Liberals have anti White biases.
https://i.postimg.cc/90NrfCs9/20240107-182355.png
<blockquote>Conservatives have always been fucking garbage at entertainment since post-ww2.</blockquote>
So what? That just confirms my point that since liberals dominate entertainment they drive entire culture
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/13/immigration-immigrants-society-rich-labour-public
Natives being robed of their homeland, crime, less social trust, more people on welfare, Islamic terrorism, grooming gangs, culture clash are all not legit concerns according to the guardian
Here is a video showing how the Guardian lied about race and intelligence:
https://youtu.be/gVAzPniTzmg
Black crime is not explained by poverty:
https://archive.ph/CQWo1
https://www.takimag.com/article/americas-black-male-problem/
https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2015/11/16/racial-differences-in-homicide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/
https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2015/11/16/racial-differences-in-homicide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/#rcatoc-assessing-the-association-with-single-motherhood-with-racially-disaggregated-data
https://i.postimg.cc/7hqgzHBQ/Poor-Whites-lower-crime-than-affluent-Blacks.png
<blockquote>One white failure is exactly that failure to stop immigration. But scapegoating is a long and dishonorable tradition, well evidenced.</blockquote>
Sorry that was awkwardly written sentence on my part. I meant Black/brown failure
<blockquote>And so it is ... not proved. See how it works? In fact most of your points have been around a perceived correlation and implied cause. When, just as I said, the two are just not the same. I hope that helps.</blockquote>
So you admit there is a very, very, very good probability that race and IQ is real?
<blockquote>s that the best you can do? YouTube btw is not university or even a scientific authority.</blockquote>
It addresses every point of race deniers. I could link tons of studies but nobody will read those.
<blockquote>Genes are inherited. If environment etc was the real cause of different IQs between peoples, then unchanged heritability would what one might expect. Environments are no biological factors. Glad to help.</blockquote>
No, if environment was depressing Blacks IQ more than White IQ, heritability of IQ of Blacks would be smaller. You don't understand heritability and what it means.
<blockquote>Unfortunately this just recalls the fears of Replacement Theory again and shows a level of projection (in that some whites seek scapegoats among minorities)</blockquote>
As I showed earlier the concern about demographic change is more than justified. Equality has far from been proven. There are no examples of affluent Black or brown societies in the world.
<blockquote>... For you, it appears.</blockquote>
Not for me, but for a rational society
<blockquote>I 'don't celebrate' human and chimp mixed couples.</blockquote>
You said that the fact that differences between the races in terms of genetics is small percentage wise proves there are no races and that race differences are not important. It doesn't
<blockquote>There's not much info available about human biodiversity 'coming in clusters' I can find so this just seems speculation.</blockquote>
LOL. No. Portuguese are more genetically related to each other than to Koreans. Russians are more genetically related to each other than to Indians. Google "population PCA"
<blockquote>The downsides for blacks though has been lacking in your arguments, since you mention it.</blockquote>
How is more divorce and domestic abuse not a downside for Blacks?
<blockquote>You asked for individual cases - and then agreed that those I gave can can be seen as hypocritical.</blockquote>
OK let's not dwell on this. Suppose I re-framed my challenge: Name me examples of double standards by White nationalist when it comes to their political stances or principles. Since WN are seen as evil by not only society in general but even by mainstream conservatives, this should be EXTREMELY EASY. If you can't you have to admit WN have no double standards and shouldn't be seen as evil.
<blockquote>A clear double standard since one presumes they wish parity themselves.</blockquote>
I still don't see any double standards. Care to reframe this reply?
<blockquote>Indeed. But all I was doing was pointing to where those who "do not celebrate" non white races can end up, with an example from these boards.</blockquote>
I see no problem with high numbers of Whites advocating repatriation. It would end all the evils leftists complain about such as systemic racism, White privilege, subconscious racism...etc. What better way to stop Whites "oppressing" Blacks than to keep Blacks away from Whites. Also no ethnic gorup has an inherent right to live with another ethnic group.
<blockquote>Your OP was to do with personal double standards, seeking individual examples.</blockquote>
I asked for political double standards of WN in general, not example of every personal hypocrisy of every WN.
<blockquote>No question I note here, so this is a strawman. Also, as you wisely note just above just because one individual on one internet wrote something extreme, doesn't mean society in general will lead to this. See how the slippery slope fallacy works?</blockquote>
It's not slippery slope because it's happening. The left teaches minorities to hate Whites. CRT, White guilt, White privilege, sytemic racism...etc. All lies.
<blockquote>Now the tone is far more aggressively rhetorical, of the conspiracy sphere (including the aforementioned Replacement Theory trope) and wildly predicting race war (something recalling Charles Manson).</blockquote>
How the argument that leftist HAVE TO lie about race and replacement to prevent White uprising and potential discrimination/violence irrational and conspiratorial? I asked you are Whites becoming minority or not? Is there any plan to stop immigration once diversity reaches a certain percentage? How many examples of well integrated Blacks or Muslims in W. countries can you name? How many examples of affluent Black or Muslim societies in the world can you name? How is a concern about all this irrational and conspiratorial?
<blockquote>In which case your arguments are not proved.</blockquote>
I only need to prove probability not certainty given the context of the issue. Nobody is proposing sterilization of other races. Only stop blaming Whites for their failure and stop mass immigration.
<blockquote>As previously noted, correlation is not cause.</blockquote>
You don't know what you're talking about. Parroting "correlation is not cause" because you heard it somewhere and you don't know what it means. Correlation does not PROVE causation but it can indicate it.
<blockquote>Other opinions can quickly be found eg</blockquote>
Short amateur video that totally debunks the mantra "race is a social construct".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HZCwG1mtpc&list=PLnTI9gjX40k-2C4MYyqbX1fZ3FDMr5eoH&index=188
<blockquote>"Heritabilities, however, did not substantially differ by race </blockquote>
Hahahaahahaha you don't know what you're talking about !!! No differences in heritability means GENETICS IS the cause. If environment was the cause, heritability would differ. Boy, you're dumb.
<blockquote>A convenient claim. The "obvious truth" is actually that, as you said " you can't 100% prove genetics is the cause."</blockquote>
I don't need 100% proof. The context of race and IQ debate isn't to mass sterilize Black people, but to stop importing them in West and blaming Whites for their failure. In this context, anything above 50% probability is sufficient.
<blockquote> humans share 99.9% of their DNA with each other, and the few differences that exist are likely due to environmental factors and not core biology. That's the science.</blockquote>
Humans share 98.5% of DNA with Chimps. Even woke race deniers themselves admit human biodiversity comes in clusters. This is race.
<blockquote>rejection from family or disinheritance; a sense of isolation; stares, insults, jibes, slights, and whispers? I think they can probably guess what they will face from bigots.</blockquote>
I did not ask for your projections of what admition of truth might lead to. I asked, should people be properly informed about statistical risks of race mixing (lower IQ, identitiy crisis, higher risk of domestic abuse, divorce...etc) like gay people are properly informed aobut the risks of gay sex?
<blockquote>As already noted you are always concerned with the alleged disadvantages of mixed races for whites, never for blacks.This shows a lack of balance to say the least.</blockquote>
So you admit race mixing has also downsides for Blacks?
<blockquote>and in the end I gave three .</blockquote>
My question was obviously about political stances of WN in general not personal lives of every individual WN. Now that you can't name a single example, you're turning my challenge into something it wasn't. And you didn't reply to my argument that every single movement can be labelled hypocritical by this standard.
<blockquote>white supremacy is not only perpetuated by whites</blockquote>
Non Whites are on the side of Whites, because even many of them how unfair society is to Whites.
<blockquote>In which case once again you are arguing without proof.</blockquote>
It does not prove itself, but it can indicate. It's a piece of the puzzle.
<blockquote>Unfortunately, as I said space for replies is limited.</blockquote>
Maybe but my point about other pieces of evidence pointing to a genetic cause still stands
<blockquote>The point was that differences in IQ between races can be explained in part by the same factors.</blockquote>
Like What?
<blockquote>The general consensus is that there is no significant difference in average IQ between men and women.</blockquote>
Not really. I think you've been reading too much Wokey-pedia. The latter falsely says the same thing about races. In any case even if men and women are equally smart, that does not prove that there is no correlation of brain size and intelligence and that the latter cannot be used as a piece of evidence suggesting genetic cause.
<blockquote>"Social scientists have long understood race to be a social construct used in its most benign form to categorize groups of people according to a small group of phenotypes and cultural differences and in its most insidious form to assign value to a social hierarchy. ..A review of the medical literature since the completion of the Human Genome Project in 2003 revealed that race, a social construct created to justify slavery, continues to be used as a genetic category, due to a lack of understanding of the continuous nature of human genetic variation."</blockquote>
"I think it's NONSENSE to say race is a social construct. Race is a real biological phenomenon"
- Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6SQ3mXzZeI&t=213s
2019 meta analysis on heritability of race found no significant differences suggesting the gap is genetic
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289619301904
<blockquote>And this was widely considered bad.</blockquote>
Because leftists took over the institutions and started brainwashing people and lying to them. If one ethnic group is behaviorally a huge burden to another it is EHTNIC INJUSTICE against that group to have to live with them. They have every right to discriminate in order to protect themselves and as long as they aren't discriminating needlessly. If the bad behaving ethnic group does not want to be discriminated, they shouldn't live with the other ethnic group. That's why we have countries.
<blockquote>No, I didn't. This is like arguing that oppressive laws against Jewish people in the mid 1930s justifies them being removed from the country.</blockquote>
Jews didn't behave like Blacks.
<blockquote>It depends on what you do with that data, and how it impacts your interactions with all black people.</blockquote>
Whites don't owe Black people having good opinion about them and to not discriminate against them to protect themselves if they behave like shit. No ethnic group owes anything to any other group besides leaving them alone.
<blockquote>no specific word, not "unwarranted tribalism", not anything else that could replace "racism" that would somehow stop what you don't like happening. People have always been fairly or unfairly charged with things.</blockquote>
That is just your opinion for the sake of disagreeing with me and not admit defeat in an argument. I think if someone asked you in a different context weather or not "unwarranted tribalsim" would be used in same situations like "racism" if terms were swapped, you would probably have a different take.
<blockquote>Do you equally complain about "misogyny" or "homophobia" as terms?</blockquote>
I have very good reservations about those terms as well. Straight men who don't find gay sex aesthetic are now called homophobes
<blockquote>Not really since I am not projecting what will happen I was quoting what has actually just been said as an example of where, for some, they end up.</blockquote>
Just because one individual on one internet wrote something extreme, doesn't mean society in general will lead to this.
<blockquote>The trouble is this reasonableness often dresses up something worse. Something I don't celebrate.</blockquote>
Like what? So you are OK with unfair double standard against Whites? You are OK with Whites becoming a hated minority in the lands of their ancestors which is an inevitable consequence of left wing views on race.
<blockquote>What was it you were just saying about the slippery slope fallacy? This is just Replacement theory, a white supremacist conspiracy trope. "Mainstream scholars have dismissed these claims of a conspiracy of "replacist" elites as rooted in a misunderstanding of demographic statistics and premised upon an unscientific, racist worldview." Something I don't celebrate either.</blockquote>
Spare me the lying Wokey-pedia. They HAVE TO lie about this to prevent White uprising and the potential discrimination against minorities admitting the truth might lead to. Are Whites becoming minority or not? Is there any plan to stop diversification when it reaches a certain level? How many examples of well integrated Black or Muslim communities in Europe can you name me? It's not slippery slope. Just go to suburbs of Paris or Sweden. This is what Europe is turning into.
<blockquote>But neither are massively subjective. That's my point.</blockquote>
How is racism not subjective if you yourself conceded that the definition of it changed severely over time? If "racism" wasn't subjective, White women who don't let in their building strange young Black men in the middle of the night wouldn't be called racist.
<blockquote>And whether or not "racism" suddenly dropped out of usage in English or not would not stop people "silencing critics" in the way you say that they currently do.</blockquote>
That's your personal opinion. I think if the term would be replaced by something with a more clear definition like I propose, it would effect in what situations people use it. Today every law or rule that produces disparate racial outcome is called "racist". It's difficult to call Fare evasion rules "unwarrantedly tribalistic" if they happen to affect more Blacks since Blacks are more likely to do it.
<blockquote>Specific racial groups are more likely born into poverty.</blockquote>
Yes but that does not mean tests are biased against Blacks. That would be like saying tests are biased in favor of Jews and Indians since Jews and Indians are rich. Nobody is saying that.
<blockquote>That's not what I asked you: Are you saying black people, collectively, should 'admit' that they are not equal to white people?</blockquote>
Equal in what respect? They should admit their failure to reach equality is due to themselves.
<blockquote>"Bingo" what? Poverty is one of the biggest predictors of criminality.</blockquote>
No, race is.
But they on average have biases against Whites. And since liberals dominate the culture (media, entertainment, academia) the culture itself is biased against Whites.
What makes them far left? They push White guilt, lie about differences, support multiculturalism, deny legitimate concerns about immigration.
Blacks (at least in USA where we have more data) commit more crime even controlled for poverty. Even if poverty could explain all the variable when it comes to crime, it still wouldn't prove they aren't more prone to more poverty (and thus crime) for genetic reasons.
<blockquote>
Is it really a fallacy to compare what you said and find a difference?</blockquote>
Yes, you deliberately took my words out of context. It's obvious why leftist lie about race. Politics.
<blockquote>
That is very liberal of you. Neither do I. In fact it is not something I would celebrate.</blockquote>
But do you support censorship of science of race? Should White women be told about the statistical risks of marrying Black men?
<blockquote>
You asked how do mixed race children express more abuse than Black children but less than Whites, and I showed you some research. The 'lack of celebration' is entirely your own.</blockquote>
The context of my question was in regards to pros and cons of race mixing. You provided further evidence that it tends to lead to problems. My point stands.
<blockquote>
This is as maybe 'in general' but you were asking for a single example which I gave and have explained why it would represent hypocrisy or double standards and below, I see you agree. But I see why now you feel the need to move goalposts. Not something I celebrate.</blockquote>
I asked for general double standards of White nationalist when it comes comes to race. You provided a single example of a personal (not ideological) hypocrisy of one no name individual. By your standards every single political party or movement is hypocritical since you can find individual examples of personal hypocrisy in every movement. My question was about principles and double standard in their ideology. You have provided none. Sine White nationalist are seen as the epitome of evil in our society, this should have been EXTREMELY easy. Conversely, since progressive left wing views on race are seen as moral and benign, it should have been very difficult for me to list many examples of their double standards. I listed 12 in my first reply.
<blockquote>correlation does not imply causation.</blockquote>
Yes it does. It does not PROVE causation by itself. But it definitely can be part of a puzzle of circumstantial evidence which is my point. I listed many more pieces but you simply ignored them.
<blockquote>Research suggests that IQ scores can be stable across the lifespan, but this stability can be influenced by various factors such as the type of test used, practice with such tests, the presence of developmental disorders, as well as, yes, genetic factors.</blockquote>
I said racial IQ gap, not individual IQ score. Can you even read?
<blockquote>the point still stands that women are just as intelligent as men even with smaller brain sizes. </blockquote>
No it does not. Men are about 3-4 IQ points smarter than women and they are a LOT smarter in visual spatial abilities.
<blockquote>The '99%' in this instance is just your convenient conjecture.</blockquote>
Whatever, the point is that barring discovery of all genes for intelligence, all other circumstantial evidence points to a genetic gap between Blacks and Whites.
<blockquote>Unfortunately your arguments, no matter how coyly couched, inevitably remind one of those of the old disreputable eugenicists, in that comparing different 'races' leads to the discovery of inferior ones and how important it is to keep the superior ones 'pure' by discouraging mixing of blood.</blockquote>
If some races were hypothetically speaking less intelligent and more prone to bad behavior, wouldn't it be moral to discourage interbreeding with those races and keeping them out?
<blockquote>(never theirs, naturally)</blockquote>
Yes, that why White nationalists all deny that East Asians are more intelligent than Whites.... Oh wat, they don't.
All I see in that copy pasted opinion piece of yours is name calling. "White supremacist" is of course a false accusation since he nor his movement advocates ruling over anyone. A proper term would be "White separatist" or a "White advocate". He is no different than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton except for Whites. In fact, he wants less for Whites than these two clowns want for Blacks.
So still no double standard? You yourself challenged my to a debate and now you can't name a single example. Yawn. Please stop wasting my time.