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CluelessDrifter's Replies
"I'm not so sure Mary sleeps with Ketch. He may proposition her but she'll say no. This isn't vampire diaries."
Funny that you mention that. At one point, I had something to the effect that in no way do I think that any of this fits with Supernatural, but deleted it, because I thought it muddied my points. I agree. None of what I suggested feels like Supernatural (I've never seen The Vampire Diaries, so I can't really compare). Unfortunately, I think that it was Ketch in the bed behind her (Maybe it was a random hook up. We won't know for a few more days, I guess, but I'm thinking not). And what a way to proposition her . . . 'Think I'll just hop into her bed without any clothes on, and she'll give me a shot then.' I don't think that seems like something Ketch would do.
I'll add that all of that is IF they decide to give Mary a redemption arch. Lucifer already seems to be getting one, so they might not give Mary one at all (this season). They could have her go all in on the BMoL even if it destroys her relationship with her sons, and if she's with Ketch . . . well, then I guess she has someone at least.
I don't understand where this idea that Mary sleeping with Ketch is supposed to be a rock bottom scenario. I think it's simply a case of Mary and Ketch spending a lot of time together in high risk situations, and they have a mutual respect for one another, so they've grown 'close' out on the road, and I don't think this is a 'one off' hooking up. I'm guessing that it's been going on for a while, since Mary has been paired off with Ketch while her sons have been off working for the BMoL somewhere else.
If Ketch is instructed to kill or capture Mary at the end of the episode or in a few episodes, then I could see that being the start of her redemption arch. If she's invested in Ketch even a little, it'll catch her off guard, so he'll be able to get a few good swipes in on her. Then, she'll have nowhere to turn but her sons for immediate help if she's injured. I'd say that would annoy me, but to be honest, I've wanted the BMoL to blow up in her face for a while now, and Ketch attacking/stabbing/shooting/using spell work on her works for me. I think something like that happening is the only way she'll be able to go to her sons, be truly contrite, and start to get to know them again, but for real this time. Ideally, I would've wanted her to come to the realization on her own that the BMoL were wrong or bad news, possibly by seeing Lucifer's baby and thinking, 'That's a baby. I have baby issues, so I'm not going to kill it," but if they want to go with an attempted hit on her doing the same, I can live with that (It just doesn't quite go far enough to make her seem like a good person underneath it all. Whereas, I think Mary coming to the realization that killing all monsters indiscriminately is wrong on her own might).
What I really don't want to see is Mary being captured to control Sam and Dean and for her to become a damsel in distress, so that her sons forgive her for everything after they get her back without her having to say she's sorry. That would not be a redemption arch. That would be sweeping everything under the carpet, and I just don't think they can do that if they want to rehabilitate the character. It might work on some fans, but it wouldn't work for me.
" The problem I have is in dialog the BoL have taken out 230 Vamps in the mid-west, 4 werewolf packs (1 with 20 dead), an Arlington ghoul, 3 ruguru's, the psychic plus Mary's shapeshifter, the vamp that outsmarted Cas and the werewolf pack she helped the twins with. This is so over the top that it has become a parody. You don't win over fans by making the characters they love look like ineffectual idiots."
I agree. The only thing I can think of to explain it is that there were a lot more 'good monsters' than we thought. If the only ones Dean and Sam go after are ones that have killed, then the others can only be explained because they weren't killing and hadn't drawn Dean and Sam's attention.
"That gives Sam a real nasty taint."
Or extreme inconsistency as a character.
I can see what you're saying, but if that's what they're trying to do, it's not coming across that way at all. Talking about kills Dean has made off-screen by highlighting that he has bits of monster in his hair from clubbing them like a caveman (seriously, that's not how you kill sirens and wraiths) seems like they want to make him out to be unsophisticated, sloppy and incompetent compared to the more high-tech, sterile, and supposedly competent BMoL.
And werewolves seem to be Dean's achilles heel, because ever since he killed the rogue werewolves from Garth's pack in season 9, he's had a problem with them. Even right after he got cured of being a demon in 10.4, he had a difficult time with them, and he was supposed to still be suffering with the effects of the Mark of Cain.
If we're talking kills and importance in dealing with the MOTW this season:
Episode 1: Mary killed the BMoL woman from The Fall in the first episode.
Episode 2: Dean got trapped by Toni, needed Mary's help to get out of it, but did know the mind thing Toni was using on Mary and how to diffuse it.
Episode 3: Sam got rid of the spirit, but I think Dean keeping the spirit occupied was equally important and at the time brought up a prospect I thought they might use further down the road, namely that Mary would become Lucifer's vessel, and Dean would be faced with the same situation, which still might happen, but is looking unlikely given that Mark P. is back, and they now have that egg.
Episode 4: Dean disappeared for a good portion of the episode (an entire act) to go on a wild goose chase while Sam dealt with the family
Episode 5: Dean killed Hitler (ridiculous concept in an otherwise decent episode)
Episode 6: Team effort lead by Dean. Mary finished the exorcism.
Episode 7: Team effort at the end.
Episode 8: Lucifer was supposed to be a team effort, but really Cas and Crowley didn't do a whole lot. Dean stood there and yelled 'Sam!', while Sam held the egg and Rowena cast the spell. Then stupidity rained down on Cas, Dean, and Sam's heads for the ending of that episode to play out like it did.
Episode 9: Dean and Sam were together on getting out of their predicament. Cas killed Billie.
Episode 10: Cas killed Ishim
Episode 11: Dean killed the witches.
Episode 12: Sam killed Ramiel with Michael's spear.
Episode 13: Team effort, but Gavin is the one who gets the most credit.
Episode 14: Sam kills the Alpha Vamp with Mick's help. (Dean mercy kills a vampire off screen.)
Episode 15: Sam kills The Hellhound with help from the GotW and the green cooler.
Episode 16: Mick kills the werewolf.
Looking at this, there have been a lot of team efforts this season. And I don't know if it's intentional or not, but if you look at any time they've worked with the BMoL either knowingly or unknowingly, Sam or one of the BMoL has gotten the kill. I don't know if that's supposed to mean anything or not.
"But, seriously, does Dean even need weapons anymore?"
Certainly not the grenade launcher. I think letting Ketch get to use one was a big slap in the face.
IF killing the soldiers gets brought up again, I'm guessing that the blame for that will go on the higher ups above Mick's head.
"Because I'll be honest if a little Belgian rugura turns up announces that they are a member of the Brussels chapter and they don't work with the Brits because they are trying aren't really in line with the rest of the men of letters would be interesting."
I'm hoping we'll get some of this from Eileen.
Okay. Early ratings on Spoiler TV are 1.73 and 0.6. Spotted ratings says the same. Any thoughts on whether this will adjust up or down?
"For me the idea of Ketch turning and just being unpredictable would make an interesting story because as you said he is basically a straight up moustache twirling villain. He's a psycho they have to stop but a useful psycho who possibly sees Mary in as much as a trophy as kindred spirit."
I guess he has a lot more that he could kill in the way of monsters than he does back home, so that would be a believable reason for him to change sides, but with Toni coming back . . . I don't really know what to think about Toni coming back. Neither do I know what to think about she and Ketch. Either their shared animosity for one another is a smoke screen, and they are still very much in unison, or their animosity for one another is real. I'm thinking that her having a child with Ketch will parallel Kelly having a child with Lucifer in some way though.
Toni could take Mick's place if he is relieved of his position or if Mick changes sides, or she could end up siding against Ketch and company if she's really frightened of Ketch (again not something I want to see happen. I don't want to see the BMoL or anything to do with them on my screen at all, but it is what it is at this point. I can live with Mick changing sides, but not the other two).
"And agree that keeping Mick is predictable and a way to keep the Men of Letters about. Though for me it would be more interesting to have Ketch kind of turn than Mick, even with Mick's character growth. It would make him and Mary sleeping together mean more than Dabb simply implying that Mary is about to hit rock bottom in a way that we will dislike her more."
There is something to be said for Ketch switching sides, because it would be unpredictable, but I think the way he's been described and even self-described, he doesn't really fit in as a hero, anti-hero, or anti-villain (Crowley would be an anti-villain at this point). He likes his job simply because he likes killing. He doesn't seem to buy into the BMoL edicts or do it for just reasoning. I think he's supposed to be a straight up villain. If they have him come around because of Mary . . . blech!
He's presumably a psychopath (He could be a sociopath, but I think he's supposed to have been born this way), which means he shouldn't be able to form a relationship with anyone that means anything to him. People should be disposable to him and a means to an end, whether it be physical needs being met or finding a way into the Winchester family for his superiors. Hopefully, Mary is smart enough to see this, but I'm guessing if anyone is going to change sides, it might be her.
Everything about supernatural is predictable now. I'm not saying that I want to see this, but if Dabb wants to keep an element of the BMoL beyond this season (and I think he does, because I think he's sneaking this in as a new show under the guise of an old show), then he has to start somewhere, and I think that's Mick. Having one of the BMoL turn to Dean and Sam's side before the others all get sent back to the UK, allows Dabb a reason to catch the Winchesters up on all the new gadgets, magic, and lore Dabb seems to want them to use going forward.
I just think it's something they'll do . . . if they don't have Ketch kill Mick at the end under the orders of the woman who seems to be in charge. I still think that's a possibility . . . so not quite so predictable. Predictable in the sense that there are really only a few ways this can go: Mick joins the Winchesters right then and there after they talk him down; the character growth we've seen in Mick gets thrown away and he either gets killed or sent back to the UK; or he gets ordered to go back to the UK, but shows up at the bunker looking to help at the end.
Yes, that is Eileen. I'm looking forward to seeing her again. Should be interesting to find out what she knows about the BMoL. I re-watched the promo again. Maybe she's the one Mick is aiming his gun at in the clip, and Sam and Dean intervene? Maybe she's wanted by the BMoL for some reason. At any rate, I don't think Dean and Sam will be working with the BMoL after the next episode.
"Mick, I don't know. Like it or not he barely knows the brothers and the Men of Letters are his family in a sense. He's essentially been taught by them from school age by the looks of it."
True, but the same could be said for Cas. I just think that they're painting Mick as something more than his counterparts at this point.
I thought of something else that . . . well, I wouldn't really say it annoyed me, but it definitely made me think, 'What?' What's the deal with turning mice into werewolves? Wouldn't they cease to be werewolves and actually be something else entirely? There are a lot of things you can test out on mice because of the similarities between humans and mice, but lycanthropy isn't really one I would think flies.
I don't know what to rate this. I usually go with the first thing that pops into my head, and that was 6 and then immediately 5, so I'm going with 5.5. That's not necessarily a good thing. It's almost better to hate an episode than for it to fall into the category of 'boring/middle of the road/I don't have a strong feeling about this one way or the other.' It also doesn't mean that I have any evidential basis for my rating, like a likes/dislikes ratio, just a purely emotion based rating. I'll still try to break down the likes vs. dislikes though.
Dean was Dean. Sam was Sam. They were in every act. This season, that gives them 3 points right there. I liked Sam telling Claire if she didn't want to be treated like a kid, she should stop acting like one. She isn't a kid. She's 20/21. I liked Dean's interrogation of Mick and their conversation outside the bar. I liked how Dean threw werewolf Claire into the fridge. I just thought it was funny even though it wasn't supposed to be, I don't think.
What I disliked: I disliked the cure immensely. I disliked that once again, we had Claire starting off 2 steps back from where we last left her, so that she could learn the same lesson she's learned a few times already. I disliked Mick shooting the werewolf when Dean could've just as easily done it instead of sitting there looking at it when it was walking towards him. He's supposed to be the best hunter on the planet. I disliked that while Dean and Sam were in the entire episode, it felt more like the Mick/Claire show than Supernatural.
Neither a positive or a negative, just an observation. Claire is a terrible hunter. The fact that she's going to be hunting alone . . . I'm guessing that's the thing that was started in this episode that will carry over to next season. Realistically, it should be that someone gets a call next season to say she's dead. She might have a chance if she had a partner who was experienced, but on her own? Dean did hunts on his own when he was 26. Depending on how long Sam was gone, 3 years or so, that means Dean didn't start hunting without his dad until he was at least 23, because in the Pilot, Sam was surprised that Dean had been in New Orleans on his own, and Dean had been hunting or at least training to be a hunter since he was a kid (His Dad took him shooting for the first time when he was 6, etc.).
That's it for now. I'll add more if I think of anything.
Yeah, I expect the CW to be the first network to move exclusively on-line in the next few years. We all know it'll happen at some point, but I think with the way things are heading with the CW, they'll have to do it before the others do.
I really like Rowena.
This is a tough one, and coming back after a break . . . Hm. I'm going with 1.51.