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CluelessDrifter's Replies
Maybe it'll get a bump, but I'm thinking the demo won't change a whole lot.
Overnights are in, and the early ratings are: viewers: 1.58/ demo: 0.5
I mean in a season when they've already had the Thule trying to bring Hitler back using the blood of his distant relative and swapping into a different body, it seems possible that this is supposed to be Rudolph Hess or a relative of him.
"From what I understand no one is allowed to edit or correct a nepotism script."
Really? I guess that explains a lot. Well, it's obvious they live in their own little bubble where they don't have to watch other episodes of the show, not only in previous seasons, but the current one as well. They don't care enough about the show to do a good job, so to have nobody correcting for egregious errors, like once again saying that Michael is Lucifer's little brother, is ridiculous.
"I wonder how many production people hoped that no one would notice."
They should know by now. Fans pick up on everything.
Also, I'm really curious to find out why it is that Kelly is now going to die as a result of having the nephilim, but Cas and his team believed that Lily Sunder was alive and well after having what they thought was a nephilim.
"Wow just when I didn't think the show could get any worse. The Duo take it to a new low."
Yeah, you know how you felt sick after watching the Dabb/Singer preview, and I just felt inexplicably angry? I'm thinking we picked up on a subconscious level how bad this episode was going to be and what it ultimately means for our little show. I managed to cool off and talk myself around, but then the actual episode happened.
I think all the way through Season 5 that Dean thought he could have been a mechanic, but in a pipe dream kind of way. It's what he was in WIaSNB. It's what John was before Mary died. John is probably the one who taught him almost everything he knows about fixing 'Baby,' and what John didn't teach him, I think Bobby probably did (body work etc. that Dean knows how to do to fix her every time she gets totaled). Even in Bad Boys, we see that if he couldn't be a rock star, he wanted to be a mechanic. He loves cars, and likes figuring out the puzzles to fix them.
Then in season 6, we see he actually worked construction, and Baby ended up under a tarp. As long as he was a hunter and couldn't do it, I think he would have considered being a mechanic, 'living the dream,' but when forced out of hunting (He still looked for Sam and cases in his neighborhood, but he was trying to fulfill his promise to Sam), it kind of tarnished the dream and is something that would've reminded him too much of his life. Basically, the dream was so intertwined with hunting that he couldn't do it and not be reminded of hunting, Sam, and being the last man standing in his family. Besides, there's no way he would have let himself be truly happy with Sam in the cage with Lucifer and Michael for all eternity.
So, I think if there were no more monsters, spirits, angels, demons, and Sam was alive and well, that Dean might be able to let himself have his pipe dream, but at the same time, I don't think being a mechanic would be enough for him. Remember that the first thing he ever wanted to be was a firefighter. Saving people is something that he was born needing to do, and he also needs something that is dangerous/high intensity, which is why hunting is perfect for him. He'd probably still need something along those lines to make him want to get out of bed in the morning. If he'd never had to become a hunter, I think it's more likely that he would have done something like that and fixed cars on the weekends as something of a hobby.
Something that gives him pure joy nowadays is cooking, and it's something he came to all on his own. It's not something anyone taught him, and he always looks so happy when he comes up with something that works in the kitchen. When he had the Mark and summoned Death, he made taquitos and tamales. It was an offering, something he knew Death would probably like, but when Dean's offered Death things like that in the past, he's given him the best. For instance, when he gave Death fried pickle chips, he gave him the best ones in the state. Dean making the taquitos and tamales himself ensured they were of a high quality, but it was also the most personal thing he could do. It's the only thing he could offer that was was all him, and it was all him minus the hunting (In other words, not weapons, not Baby, etc). So, maybe he could've been a chef and volunteer firefighter if he'd never been a hunter.
I'm probably going to regret responding to this, but absolutely not. In no way do I want the show to end in it's current state. They need to get rid of Dabb and Singer as show runners and see what they can do about fixing this. To end it in its current state would be a disservice. Besides, the show's been picked up already for season 13.
Good luck. Looking forward to hearing what you think of it.
There had to be a reason for them to bring Toni back.
Yeah, I thought that's the way it might go.
Yay! You're back. Is this okay? I wasn't sure if I should start one of these.
Oh absolutely. But it is the simplest way for them to get us to care more about his character AND show us that he isn't like the others, because he isn't a legacy and therefore isn't as indoctrinated. He didn't grow up thinking like them. He stole things to survive, as you said, the artful dodger, and he probably feels like he owes them a lot, so I'm guessing that's where his conflict is going to originate. They're building him up an awful lot. I just can't tell if it's so we feel worse when Ketch kills him or if it's because he's going to become more of a regular thing next season.
"And if it was his first official men of letters job he wouldn't let Mick in the car to let Mick to wet his head hunting because Dean would still be trying to get his head round working with the men of letters, even if he was wiling to go along."
I'd think that Dean would want to check them out sooner rather than later, especially when he knows that Cas almost died and Wally did die on a mission Mary took them on for the BMoL. That's why it wouldn't seem odd to me for Dean to not only go to a meeting at the BMoL bunker soon after Sam told him they were already kind of working for them, or for Dean to ultimately agree to let Mick tag along with them. He may have complained the entire time, but that's as much about him not wanting to work with them and trying to find anything to get out of it as it is anything else. Also, Sam backed Mick coming with them. That's why Dean said that it was Sam's job to keep an eye on him, but again, filling in those blanks in time and motivation is all speculation at this point until it's confirmed on screen.
PS. Thanks for clarifying.
Yeah, they're definitely fleshing out his character more. And if anyone didn't already kind of like Mick (I'll admit that I don't mind him), him being an orphan is bound to change a few minds.
"But the Dean we know would either keep them at arms length because he doesn't trust them but is going on Sam's word or be the one who is wanting to meet face to face because he doesn't trust them and he wants to back up Sam's word. And not only that if he has just found out and he gets the men of letters were happy to have him be tricked into accepting and they understand that he still probably finds them shady then why would entertain Mick trying to come along? Story about wanting to prepare or not Dean would probably feel Mick wasn't there for field experience but to check up on him and Sam even if he was trying."
I'm sorry, but I'm having a really hard time understanding what any of this means. I mean, I think I understand it in a general sense, but I'm not sure where it fits into the discussion.
"So with that being said I'd say there is a time jump and if there is a time jump you have to wonder if Sam told Dean about the colt and the alpha and why the alpha turned up."
We weren't told that there was a time jump, which they do when there is one, like when the government had Dean and Sam for 6 weeks or when Dean and Sam were out killing wraiths, sirens, etc. for weeks after The Raid. Without that, I can't agree with this. We can speculate on what they were dong there, like I could say that in the phone call at the end of the previous episode, Sam told the BMoL that Dean was officially on board, and that's what prompted them to call he and Dean in for a meeting, but without them showing that, I can't say one way or the other whether or not that definitively happened.
As far as we know, Dean and Sam were just there. Dean wasn't happy to be there and thought they were just going to be getting cases thrown in their direction, not that they were really going to be working for the BMoL (i.e. reporting for duty). We also don't know whether or not the vampire girl in the Raid told Dean why the vampires were fighting back or if Sam did. We don't even know if Claire had a chance to tell Dean what the sire werewolf told her in the last episode. I'm guessing not on both accounts because of Dean's reaction to what Mick did to the werewolf girl in the hospital, but again, I can't say for sure until we're told on screen in some way.
Turning it back to Supernatural, I half-expect Lucifer to sacrifice himself for his kid as a final step in his redemption.
I'm in the process of watching it and just saw the one where Alex gets pulled over. I was really surprised that it was Mark P.
"But still he is there working with them so is still complicit in the men of letters ethos unless we find out Sam and Mary never told him about the colt and the kill squad method they men of letters uses."
Complicit - involved with others in an activity that is unlawful or morally wrong.
Is Dean really complicit if in the first case we see him knowingly working with the BMoL, he flat out tells Mick that not all werwolves are bad, confronts Mick when he finds out Mick killed the girl in the hospital, broadens the scope then to say that not all monsters are bad, tells Sam what Mick did as a reason I'm sure he thought would get them out of the BMoL service, and then tells Claire that she can live as a monster and still be okay? None of that says he is or plans to be involved in the extermination of all monsters.
Dean only gave the BMoL, but more specifically Mick, a second chance because Mick stuck around to actively help with the cure, didn't actually follow the BMoL ethos when left by himself to keep an eye on Claire, and then shot the werewolf that was going after Dean. That's more about Mick as an individual than the BMoL as a whole, and if anything, Dean is converting Mick to his side in small steps, which I don't think depicts even a tacit agreement with the way the BMoL do things.
What I want to know is why Dean isn't there when Mick gives Sam the Colt. Is he busy somewhere else? It's possible if that's where the showdown with Dagon happens later in the episode (It looks like that bridge is in the background behind Sam and Eileen. Maybe Dean is doing something to help set up a trap for Dagon or is off getting Kelly away from Dagon with the idea being that Kelly can be used as bait). If that's the case, then he more than likely knows about the Colt, Mick is bringing the Colt to help with the trap, and the random BMoL guy is there to keep an eye on Mick and the Colt, because the BMoL don't trust either with Dean and Sam.
Or is the Colt still being kept secret a secret from Dean? Did Sam call Mick up behind Dean's back and say, 'hey we need the Colt for this trap we've got planned,' and then not expect Dean to notice it when they use it? Maybe, but when Sam's being sneaky, he usually hides it better than that, so unless he's using Eileen as cover and planning to say she gave him the Colt, I think that's less likely than Mick wanting to help with Dagon and showing up with the Colt unsolicited at a time when Dean isn't there for whatever reason. That might indicate that Dean still doesn't know about the Colt, and Sam is going to have to explain how he has it for Dagon, how Mick got it, etc.
I'm hoping that's what happens, because I'd really like to see Dean's reaction to the Colt being back and how it was obtained rather than find out he was told off screen. It may be naive of me given how things have played out this season, but I'm holding onto that hope until they pry it away tonight. I'll also say that if Dean doesn't know about the Colt, that in no way paints him as stupid to me. Simply not knowing something he would have no way of knowing without being told about it doesn't make him stupid. At any rate, I think that we'll see Mick take a step towards the BMoL and away from the Winchesters throughout the episode and then we'll see him take a step closer to the Winchesters after Dean talks him down at the end.
"As for follow through I have no faith that there will be any consequences of this outside they will brush over Sam and Mary's reasoning for working with the men of letters, Dean apologising for making them pick sides and Mary's arc being the lazy one of her going out in a semi blaze of glory."
There has to be some kind of follow through or the entire storyline, weak as it is, becomes pointless; no lessons learned, no finding out about what hunting means to them as individuals/what they really want out of hunting/how they want to hunt going forward, etc., and that is what Dabb said this season was going to be about at the start of the season. I wouldn't be surprised if they chickened out and had no follow through, because they've done it in the past, and it is possible that most in the audience wouldn't notice and simply be happy with some pretty words in the finale from family about family that will erase the entire season and make it all okay, but that doesn't work for me.
What is Dean's?
He finds his Mom. Finds out the BMoL have Sam.
Tells Mary that he and Sam save a lot of people doing what they do. Seems proud of it. Helps save Sam. Starts to find out Mary isn't as he remembered.
Mary leaves.
Apparently, Dean's supposed to be cranky after Mary left, but he's the one who reaches out to her and asks if calling her Mom is okay. He's on board with letting Magda go.
He has no interest in pie at the start, something I personally think he associates with his memories of his childhood with his Mom. Doesn't want to talk about Mary. After he kills Hitler, he's feeling a little better about things and suggests pie. He's on board with letting the Thule boy go.
Runs into Mary at the funeral. Is upset she's using John's journal to catch up on things she's missed instead of asking them. Is upset that she'll text them once a week when she feels like it, but will drive to Canada for a funeral. Offers to take Mary out for breakfast at the end after she says she's not ready to go home with them. He's on board with letting Bucky go.
Is playing a game on his phone with Mary at the start. Thinks that saving a room full of people even if they couldn't save Vince a win.
Has no idea Sam called and then hung up on the BMoL. I guess he was part of the team that helped with Lucifer at the end, but he didn't really do much and didn't use the magic egg given to them by the BMoL, although he did seem as surprised that it worked as Sam was when Dean killed Hitler.
Dean finds out Mary has been secretly working with the BMoL, is rightfully angry, kicks her out, and doesn't respond to her attempts to contact him. Ketch shows up. He hunts with him, puts an early end to Ketch's interrogation of a vamp, shows up too late when he hears Mary might be in trouble. As far as we know, he doesn't know about the Colt. At the end, he tells Mary he doesn't agree with her decision to work with the BMoL, but it's her decision to make.
Has been unknowingly working for the BMoL for weeks. Works with Crowley. Finds out he's been working with the BMoL and agrees to work with them because he and Sam work with Crowley, but they're out if anything seems off.
Is really not happy to be working with Mick. Knows that Mick killed the girl in the hospital. Calls him out on it. Gives Mick a second chance after Claire is cured, and Mick kills the werewolf who was advancing on Dean.
That's it.
Dean's problems with Mary have gradually increased over the season, but until he found out she'd been lying to them about working with the BMoL, he was still the one who was reaching out to her even if it was by text or game, and he'll still drop everything to help her if she's in danger, which we would expect. He has consistently been against the BMoL even while working with them. He's also been lied to consistently throughout the season, first by Mary and then by Sam, which forced him into a situation where he agreed to work with the BMoL, because he already was and didn't know it and because he works with the King of Hell.
With Sam placating Mary at every turn and ever so slightly heading more and more in the BMoL direction, and Dean growing further from Mary and not wanting anything to do with the BMoL, I feel like there has to be something more to the 'pick a side' thing. If Dean is the center, Mary and Sam have been orbiting further and further away from him all season. For the story to make any sense, there has to be follow through on it. It can't just be made right because Mary is in danger or they finally see BMoL in all their evil glory. Sam's still going to want to know more about that lore and those gadgets after everything is finished, and Dean isn't going to want anything to do with the BMoL. Mary has got to admit she's been wrong, actually get to know her sons and struggle to make things right, not take the easy way out story-wise and sacrifice herself for them.