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CluelessDrifter's Replies
Looking at it again, maybe there is a little more continuity to Sam's story this season than I originally thought.
"The problem is that they haven't painted it as a conflict or on Sam's mind so much his mommy called and Sam came running then Sam acting in a way that leaves a really bad taste."
I know. That's why I said they haven't given us Sam's point of view on much of anything.
Let me see if I can put down Sam's progression this season.
He was tortured by Toni and wouldn't give up the other hunters.
He wants to connect with Mary.
Mary leaves.
He was on board with letting Magda go. Had a little rant at Magda's Mom that was probably meant for Mary before he knew how bad Magda's mother really was.
He was on board with letting the Thule boy go.
He was on board with letting Bucky go. Spends time following Mary around and telling her Dean needs time.
He thought losing a meatsuit that was long gone before Rowena sent it to the bottom of the ocean meant the whole operation was a loss even though they saved a room full of people.
He actually calls the BMoL for help with Lucifer, changes his mind, Ketch shows up, Sam thinks the BMoL toys are cool, and the magic egg actually works.
He finds out Mary is working with the BMoL and seems hurt. Still goes to see Mary and stays even though he knows she lied again to get him there. Listens to the entire sales pitch she says isn't a sales pitch, finds out about the Colt, the place gets overrun with vampires, he kills the Alpha Vamp with the Colt, is okay with a hunter being taken away by the BMoL to be tortured, and says he'll work for the BMoL.
Gets Dean to unwittingly work for the BMoL for weeks before telling him and after being guilted into it by the GotW.
The first case we see Dean is knowingly working with the BMoL, Sam is enthralled with the BMoL lore, but says some monsters are good, is disgusted with Mick for killing the girl in the hospital, and gives Mick a second chance after the cure for Claire works. And I don't think Sam's reaction to Mick killing the girl in the hospital was to save face with Dean, or he would've betrayed it in some way, either with a look or a conversation with Mick, something.
I'm not seeing enough there to say that Sam is 100% on the genocide train. I see Sam wanting to make his Mom happy, have a normal life she is giving him permission to have, changing his position on hunters being punished or killed if a hunter endangered his Mom, being seduced by the toys, and not thinking through what killing all the monsters really means.
Sam is a 'the ends justify the means' kind of guy, and when Sam is doing something he knows he shouldn't, but thinks he has to do for what he thinks is the right end result, he at least shows that he knows he's doing something wrong at some point and then does it anyway. He hasn't done that with the BMoL. Sure he felt bad about lying to Dean about it and came clean, but that's not the same as feeling bad about following their ethos and methods.
Either that's because he's too stupid to realize what their ethos really is, and Sam isn't stupid; he doesn't think what they're doing is wrong, which is not the Sam we've been shown for years, but would explain why the writers felt the need to have Sam say that saving a room full of people was a loss in Rock Never Dies and why he has repeatedly shown interest in their gadgets and lore; or Sam is doing this to have a normal life, keep Mary happy, use cool toys, and hasn't thought through what the consequences of his actions really mean. None of them are good options, but I think one is worse than the rest.
"I agree this whole season is just ....well Dabb has just told us that Sam is a big hypocrite who is happy to sit back and watch people exterminate other groups then will join in while spouting empty platitudes about 'not all monsters are bad' while happily doing nothing to stop those methods being used."
I don't know what Dabb's trying to do with Sam other than make Sam look bad (I think it seems worse than it's supposed to be, because we are getting absolutely nothing in the way of POV from Sam this season).
For a long time, Sam felt like he was a monster, so he was always able to sympathize with the good ones, especially those that mirrored him in some way (Benny is different and another time in addition to the current situation when Sam wasn't willing to give a 'good monster' a chance for selfish reasons). He's also always wanted to have a normal life as far away from monsters as he can get.
It's like Dabb has taken these two strong characteristics that Sam has and had those two sides fight it out. It would appear that having a normal life won out over everything else Sam has professed about 'good monsters' in the past . . . until someone he knew got bitten by a werewolf, and then he remembered his moral compass.
If that's what they're doing with Sam, having him struggle between his conscience with regard to 'good monsters' vs. his desire to have a normal life (Either the one his Mom said he could have or the one he wants to have with his Mom where they fight the good fight together), then they aren't showing his struggle on screen, which makes this whole storyline seem muddled. If anything it paints Sam, not as a hypocrite so much as selfish . . . or stupid if he didn't know until last week that when the BMoL and Mary said they were going to wipe out all the vampires, they meant ALL the vampires.
"To be honest Mary gets herself in trouble, Mary should get herself out."
Yeah, but they won't do that. I'd be willing to bet that they would much rather turn her into a damsel in distress as the laziest way to try and fix all of the damage they've done to her character.
"Is his self esteem that low again? And I think that is doubled if we are expected to think that Dean has heard about the colt and why the vamps attacked the bunker as they did."
I'm not expecting it, because none of the important character interactions have been shown this season, but my one hope for this episode is that Dean doesn't know about the Colt and only finds out when Sam tries to use it against Dagon. Then maybe that can get wrapped up, but if Mary is put in danger as a means of controlling Dean and Sam, then it's all moot, because it'll become all about saving Mary, and all of her betrayals will be forgotten. Much as we saw happened in The Raid.
I liked the concept of Henry's brand of MoL. I loved the concept of Delphine's brand of MoL. Neither one of those are what we're getting with the BMoL. I also do not want them to upgrade to the new high-tech BMoL bunker. Step away from the high-tech gadgets and keep some small semblance of what the show used to be.
I think something else that gets me is that there is going to be a big deal made of their bust up with the BMoL when there should've never been a working relationship there in the first place. Sam agreeing to work with them made no sense, and then Sam secretly getting Dean to work for them for a couple weeks (off screen) without mentioning it happened. Then Dean just agreed to work with them, because Crowley (Or because he didn't feel like fending off arguments for the same thing on two fronts, i.e. Mary and Sam ). After that, there was one episode of Dean working with them knowingly, albeit begrudgingly, and Sam somehow suddenly saw that killing all monsters isn't a good thing (even though he should've known that after the sales pitches he got in The Raid). Now this week is supposed to be the start of the big fracturing of their working for the BMoL. It all just seems so . . . fill this in with whatever negative adjective you want.
So, now that I've calmed down, I'm speculating that Mick is planning on killing Kelly, but Dean and Sam intervene. Then Mick kills the random BMoL guy instead to keep him from telling Cruella de Vil that he let them go, and when he reports back to Cruella de Vil to tell her they got away, she tells Ketch to capture Mary, so they can use her as leverage to get Kelly. Sounds dreadful.
This is what I speculate, not what I want to see.
"And that there were others outside upper crust or South East England, for crying out loud they had Bronagh Waugh and Adam Fergus not use their own accents. Why?"
I don't know. You'd think they would've at least let Bronagh Waugh use her accent since Toni made such a big deal of saying British in front of her. With Adam Fergus, Eileen's parents being killed by a banshee in the ROI shows that the BMoL only covers the UK and not even a country as close as Ireland, so maybe him using his normal accent would confuse that? They could've always gotten around that by saying that he's a legacy, and his parents immigrated when he was small, but then that raises questions on why they left the BMoL and how did he end up back in it. I don't think they want to give him that much of a backstory, so it's just easier to have him use a different accent.
Guess it's all in the name of the episode. I think it was because it was all 'BMoL, BMoL, BMoL,' and I can't stand the BMoL storyline. I really don't care if a war breaks out between the Winchesters and the BMoL. How in any way is that Supernatural? Unless the BMoL are really being run by the Thule, or they start upping the amount of magic the BMoL use and classify them as witches, I don't see how this turf war over the monsters in the States fits in with the show at all.
I think maybe speculating on where the show is going to go is one thing, and I have and do speculate on where this is going all the time, but seeing the worst of the worst case scenarios being played out on screen is really quite embarrassing. And I guess that it is what it is, and there's nothing that can be done about it now, because this particular train wreck has been on our screens all year, and they can't erase that. They have to do something with it, but I don't particularly want to see it or have it carry on into next year.
Yeah, it is an overly stereotyped, cartoonish, poorly done British villain.
Watching this just made me angry for some reason. I'll get back to you when I figure out why. I think part of it was the BMoL woman on the phone and her colonialists this and blah, blah, that . . . I need some time to think about it, but annoyance and a flash of anger are all I get from that clip so far.
I think what we're going to see from now to the end of the season is more and more focus going onto the British Men of Letters (Ketch, Mick, Mick's boss, Toni, etc.), Mary, Crowley and Lucifer, and maybe something to do with the angels and Cas . . . where do the Winchesters fit into that? They don't except to maybe babysit Kelly. Can't really blame J2 for not being there when there's nothing for them to do.
Yeah, I think it was this one. Vegas Con was on while this was being shot.
"We got a glimpse of Dean with a gun in the opening seconds, and then... he's driving the car. Again."
In one of the photos he's standing next to Sam and aiming a gun at Dagon, so he's not just going to be driving the car . . . I hope. I think the million dollar question is who gets to kill Dagon (if she dies and doesn't just leave at the first sight of the Colt). I wish I could simply say that Dean killed Azazel, so Sam/Eileen/Kelly/Mary/VotWs/random shop clerk getting to kill the other 3 YEDs will never in any way be as cool or important as that but it certainly waters down Azazel's death to make it so easy now. It also waters down the show's history concerning Dean and Sam, their upbringing, Seasons 1 and 2, and John.
" Given the way this season is going, I have zero faith that Mary's betrayal and then both her and Sam keeping the Colt secret from Dean will be addressed in any satisfying way. Heck, maybe we're supposed to assume that he already knows, having been told 'off screen'."
Almost everything of importance regarding character interaction has been dealt with off-screen this season, so it wouldn't surprise me either.
I think that's the Colt that Mick is giving Sam.
I'm thinking we'll get protective Dean starting in this episode with regard to Kelly.
I wonder if after Mick fails to kill Kelly, the BMoL either use Ketch to capture Mary for an exchange in a later episode or call Mary in to get into the bunker and deal with it. I know the photos can be misleading, but it looks like Mary and Ketch aren't there to deal with Dagon. Instead it is Eileen who is helping the Winchesters, so what's Mary purpose in this episode?
Yeah, I figured shows on original cable and Netflix, etc. would be fine. I'm wondering about the timing of it if nothing will be affected over the summer. It means it will have to go longer, as you said, for it to mean anything.
Oh yeah, and Mick seems to be heading down the path of redemption too, so adding Mary into the mix . . .