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CluelessDrifter's Replies
It definitely goes into the Marmite category of Supernatural episodes.
"I'm among those who don't believe Dean would be destroyed if Mary dies. "
I agree about Dean not being destroyed if she dies as it stands now, but if he doles out some harsh criticism of her and that's what leads her to sacrifice herself, I could see him taking the blame for it and being destroyed by it in that way.
"They were dead wrong for this May storyline but Dabb is on his cloud, drunk on power and convinced he's writing a compelling story. A shame."
Absolutely!
I can't watch it. Every time I try, I get second hand embarrassment and have to shut it off. I also think they should've had DemonDean being cured in the 200th instead of the musical. It's not like anyone from the show was actually singing in it anyway.
I agree with you 100% about killing Crowley being a big mistake, but I think I've lost so much faith in TPTB that I'm not really sure they are aware of what constitutes a grievous mistake. Somebody is going to be thrown away to facilitate their new vision of the show. Kind of feel like they've been doing it to Dean and to a lesser extent Sam this season too, and look at what they've done to Mary.
Maybe it will be Mary, but I don't want it to be her. I think I saw a spoiler that Dean confronts Mary about her deal with Azazel in 22, something I was hoping someone would do this season, and I could see them have him unload on her only for her to die to try and make up for her mistakes, which would destroy him next year. And if that's what they decide to do, it wouldn't make me hate Lucifer. It'd make me hate the writers' vision of this show and the character of Mary more.
It'd be almost a direct repeat of John's storyline. All throughout season 1, we got John not being present, the same way Mary hasn't been present this season, but Dean and Sam had a previous relationship with John that they talked about, and we could see that relationship for all its strengths and flaws when the three of them came together. Mary hasn't been present all season, but there isn't really a previous relationship that Mary has with her sons at this point, and she hasn't done anything to build one up with them either, so we don't see it when she's around them. When she does things to sound like a Mom, like say 'Don't give me that look,' or 'Screens down, eyes up, shut up (and Sam snaps to like a good little soldier),' I think most in the fandom are annoyed by it, because it's trying to force a relationship that isn't there. In IMToD, Sam confronted John when he thought John was going to summon the demon to kill it instead of find a way to help Dean. Now we've got Dean confronting Mary in a similar way. John ultimately sacrificed himself for Dean, and if they have Mary die, it'll be a sacrifice for her sons (to make the parallels exact, I guess it'd have to be for Sam), but it will ring hollow. The writers will have taken the easy way out rather than try to fix Mary by showing her journey to building a relationship with her sons next season, or you know come up with a storyline that isn't a poor rip-off of John's.
I'll see your Jody and Eileen are off limits and raise you Donna. I don't want anything to happen to her either.
"This show needs all the good actors it can get."
I agree. I wouldn't like to lose Mark S. He is a great actor. It's just that there are so many characters on the show this year with the addition of Mary, Ketch, Toni, Dr. Hess, Lucifer (with Mark P.'s having been added as a series regular), the twins, and Joshua. They've gotten rid of Mick, and I'm thinking Ketch and/or Dr. Hess may not last the season, but the others? And if they include the nephilim next year and have more BMoL show up next year, plus have our standard returns to the show, i.e., Jody, Donna, Eileen, Claire, Alex, and Rowena; and our normal series regulars, Crowley and Cas, then they might be considering cleaning house of the older characters in favor of newer ones.
"So...Crowley?"
Well, Crowley isn't really a villain like he used to be. He'll never really be able to reclaim the title of King of Hell and have it mean anything as long as Lucifer is around, so unless they're planning to pair him up with Cas all the time next season, maybe they're pushing him out in favor of Lucifer.
I really like this picture. He looks so tired and just . . . real.
Updated with Press Photos.
Arguments for it being Jody: It would set up a storyline for Claire and Alex next year on either Supernatural or a spin-off, especially with the message Claire left Jody at the end of 12.16. If they're keeping Mary, then maybe the writers think they can afford to sacrifice Jody, because they don't think they need another Mom-like character on the show, especially since they already showed the contrasts between she and Mary in the Asa Fox episode.
Arguments against it being Jody: Jody is in 12.22. The finale is 12.23. Mark P. might have been including the two as one big finale, but he also said he'd read the finale, and 22 is being filmed right now, so I'm thinking he actually meant the finale. Kim has always been the biggest proponent of a Wayward Daughters spin-off, and if they are going to do a spin-off, but choose to kill her off to set it up, that would be really cruel, and I'm not sure that it would endear the new show to fans of this show to sacrifice her for it like that. Maybe she's just calling Dean and Sam to tell them that Claire is missing, and it's to set up a continuation of the BMoL next season. If Claire is the only person to ever be cured of being a werewolf, then maybe they want to do experiments on her.
It could be Jody calling Dean and Sam, because Ketch is about to kill her. We know he's supposed to be getting worse too. Having both Lucifer and Ketch do something horrible would make us less likely to suspect the other one of doing something horrible later.
My thoughts: It could be Jody. It could be Crowley. It could also be Cas, and they leave it on a cliffhanger just to bring him back as a reaper or something next year. It could be a combination of the above. I'm taking Rowena off my list of potentials based on the spoiler that she doesn't appear to be in either episode.
Ah, but what if there are 2 deaths? Lucifer kills Crowley, and Ketch kills Jody? Yikes!
You can talk about it here if you want. Just maybe tag it with *SPOILER* at the top, so anyone reading knows to skip your post.
Yeah, I don't think they have any idea what is going on with the BMoL when they aren't there, which has been annoying for the audience to watch all year. Dramatic irony works incredibly well on a theatre stage or in a short story, but to carry it on the length of a season is very trying to watch. At this point, they know nothing of any real value about the BMoL and will in theory still be working with them in the next episode unless they don't get a call from Mick about a hunt they should check out and find one themselves.
"I can see the parallel in him kidnapping Dean but I really don't want it to happen. Dean is such a badass character and he hasn't had the opportunity to shine much this season. I would hate for him to end it tied up somewhere getting slapped around by his mother's FWB 😰 😪"
I miss badass Dean. I wanted there to be an epic battle with a human bad guy they were building up to be the best of the worst vs. Dean, and maybe they'll still do that, but with Mary and Ketch having their tryst, I can see them trying to add conflict there instead, which is a shame.
"A beloved character is definitely dying."
Oh and I'm copying this from what you put up in the SeaCon thread.
"Jensen: I’m gonna speak for both of us and say we haven’t filmed it yet. That’s gonna be a tough one."
I'm thinking this indicates even more that one of our beloved characters is being killed in the finale. Maybe not, but something big seems to be happening in the finale.
Thanks for all of this!
"This thing again. So we're going to be super mad at Luci and super mad at Ketch. A beloved character is definitely dying. I swear if they touch the McLeods I'm gonna be pissed."
I noticed that too! Finally, it looks like they're going to stop straddling the line on whether our 'Big Bads' are really bad. I think a beloved character is dying too. I don't see Ketch joining up with Lucifer to get it done, so I'm guessing that Lucifer kills someone important while Sam and Dean are preoccupied elsewhere. I'm thinking Crowley with the way things between Lucifer and Crowley have been going for a while now. Also, with Lucifer around and maybe the BMoL sticking around to play the part of frenemy in the future, Crowley's role is really starting to be doled out to other characters and makes him less necessary. It could be Rowena though. I'm less inclined to believe it's Cas, because I think the fandom would have a conniption, but then Cas's storyline has to be going somewhere, and he's making right the wrongs of his past, like with Lily Sunder or with the angels; he killed Billy, because he thinks the world needs the Winchesters (not himself necessarily); there are supposed to be cosmic consequences for him killing Billy; and after what happened in 12.12, we won't be expecting him to die so soon. If it happens out of nowhere without him being able to say anything to the brothers, well, we already saw him say his parting words to them in 12.12. I'm not saying his death would be permanent the way I think it'd have to be if Crowley died, because again with the cosmic consequences, but who knows? Misha has gotten a lot more political this year and ventured a little away from the show to do Timeless, albeit under Kripke, so maybe he wants to focus more on other things, like his charity and politics.
With Ketch, I'm guessing that he does some pretty rotten things, but not permanent rotten things, like killing a beloved character. He'll be killing hunters, and maybe he'll get his hands on one of the Winchesters, like Dean to contrast what happened to Sam at the start of the season. I had wanted to see a big fight between Dean and Ketch with Dean coming out on top, but now I'm starting to think that killing Ketch is going to be all Mary. :(
I hope so! Wait. You didn't like Family Remains, right?
"i'm thinking he kills Mary but it's probably wishful thinking on my part. Again, that wouldn't make me hate him."
Yeah, I'm not thinking too many fans would hate him for killing Mary either . . . unless they do a massive amount of work on her character between now and the finale, but I'm not hopeful of that given how many episodes are left and how many of them feature Mary. To be honest, I'd much rather they do the hard thing and put the time in on fleshing out who Mary is next season than have her just die. For her to die now would be a waste of a season and her character, and some grand sacrifice on her part would ring hollow. Maybe he'll figure out a way to get out of his body and will coerce Mary into being his vessel. I wouldn't hate him, but it'd be interesting. I'm just not sure they're willing to give up Mark P. for something like that.
Maybe he kills somebody else? If he kills Kelly, I don't think that'd make me hate him. If he kills the baby . . . I'm not sure they'd do that on network TV, and I'm not entirely sure what his motivation in doing that would be. Maybe he could use the baby as a vessel and go home with some unwitting character that way, but I wouldn't hate him for that. I just wouldn't want to see it, because I find the idea boring, and again, I'm not sure how long they have Mark P., but if they can have him in season 13, I'm not sure they'd give him up for that. Cannibalizing the baby . . . maybe, but would they show that on network TV?
My guess is that he'll kill Rowena, Crowley, or Cas. Rowena - He's already killed her, and she came back, but if it were permanent . . . I'm not sure that this would make me hate him even though I like Rowena a lot. Crowley or Cas - if he kills either of them, then I could see that making fans hate him.
"I guess this answers my question about the bunker if it's still there in season 13."
That's what I was thinking! I just wanted to make sure they weren't kidding about the lazy boy and flat screen before I said it. If it's true, the bunker should be safe going into season 13. Hoping that also means that the BMoL will no longer be around next season. That was my other concern, that the bunker would still be around but taken over by the BMoL. I guess it still could be, but the BMoL don't seem like Lazy Boy and flat screen TV fans.
"J2 have done something for s13 already."
Any ideas on what this means?