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CluelessDrifter's Replies
I've been thinking about the spoilers for the last few episodes. I think Toni returning in 20 is what makes Mary start to have doubts about the BMoL. I'm also guessing that maybe in 21/start of 22, the BMoL make their move on the bunker, and the Winchesters have to go to Jody's to hide out. I honestly have no idea what's going to happen in the finale other than Lucifer gets free, and he'll go back to being a villain because he probably kills somebody. If the Winchesters keep Kelly with Jody, it could be Jody, but other than that, I don't really see any reason for Jody and Lucifer to be anywhere near one another.
Thanks Bella. I like speculating, because it's like a puzzle, and I like figuring things out. Maybe it also gives me a little bit a hope until the inevitable reveal that proves I was wrong and nothing will come of the things I thought might be important, but overall, I'm extremely displeased with this season. At this point, I'm really hoping for that spin-off to happen next year, so Dabb will go do that and we can get someone else to run the show, because I just don't think he respects the show he has as much as he should. He wants to turn it into something it isn't and keeps trying to make us think that's not what he's doing by going back over old myth arcs or concepts, like the set up for season 4 or Mary, the psy kids, Lucifer, YEDs, nephilim, the Colt, MoL, a season 4-type Cas that I'm expecting to see when he comes back, etc.
"Well that explains why Dean basically had no reaction to the Colt, Sam's lies and manipulation and Mary's betrayal. Dabb isn't interested in any family drama even though he sets up family drama. This is the most confusing season I've ever watched. I don't know what Dabb is going for."
I couldn't have put this better myself. I have no idea what Dabb wants either, because you're right. The set up for these dramas are all over the place. My best guess? He doesn't know the characters as well as he should and/or care about their histories enough to know when things will upset them and create the drama he's setting up, so he doesn't know or care to follow through on said dramas.
That, or I think we're supposed to be getting a look into the Winchester's relationships from outside this season, so we aren't seeing anything that they're actually talking about or how they're reacting to anything. We're just getting them hunting, dealing with the nephilim, and one time where Dean blew up at Mary. It's like I said in another thread, we're watching things from the BMoL's POV in a way we never saw Ruby's POV in Season 4, but the set ups are exactly the same. Sam wants to do something that seems like it would be good, like killing Lilith, and he's working with people he thinks will help him achieve that even though he shouldn't, like he did with Ruby, but the difference is we know what the BMoL have been up to all season, whereas we never saw Ruby talking with Lilith about her plans to get Sam strong enough to kill Lilith or that killing Lilith would release Lucifer. It's annoying to watch, because it makes Dean and Sam look worse than if we're as in the dark about what the villains are doing as Sam and Dean are. Also, they have no idea that Crowley has Lucifer either. That makes them look doubly bad. They have no idea what's really going on this season.
"Therefore the act/moment/scene is a sham."
It certainly felt shoehorned into not just the episode, but the season we've had, because it came from out of nowhere. It was almost like they caught wind of a lot fans not being happy with how the brothers were being written, thought, "Oh crap, we had no idea people wanted them to talk about real things on screen," and decided to throw them a bone with a rehash of Swan Song to keep them happy. If Dean is miserable, as I suspect (I can't see anything else of relevance for him at this point - means I'm probably wrong because of how hard I've had to look to find it), then him being miserable because of what his family is putting him through is not something a 'Yay, look at the brothers be brothers,' moment is going to fix or make in any way meaningful for me until his place within the family is fixed.
"But is it being reciprocated by Mary? She has slept with him, but is it real love at this point?"
Don't need to be in love to have sex. I don't think they showed Mary being emotionally invested in him at all, and he knows it, because she made that clear.
Uh, I'm just going to copy and past parts of previous posts that I've written about why I think Dean brought it up and maybe add a few bits and pieces in between to make it clearer.
When Dean and Sam were first talking to the sheriff, Dean made it abundantly clear, he still despises working with the BMoL in the way he says, "Just following orders," followed up with an eye-roll. Sam picked up on the shade Dean threw, got uncomfortable, and then ignored it.
"I liked the sheriff straight away. He seemed like a guy who was burned out, someone who used to care, but doesn't anymore, because nothing ever comes from doing or trying to do the right thing (For instance, trying to take the kid killed in the woods from a bad home didn't work out, and then the kid ended up having to take care of his abusive father after his father had a stroke). He's interested in anything but the job," i.e. taxidermy; I thought this set him up as a parallel to Dean, and then in the next scene we have . . .
Dean being extremely needy with the waitress in the diner. He was barely interacting with Sam the whole time just like he was barely interacting with Sam while he was cleaning the Colt back at the bunker. It comes across as him being shut down on Sam and this BMoL case.
Then we found out that the sheriff owned the meat packing plant, his family's business, and are told that it's failing because he didn't have any interest in it anymore - the family business is barely functioning and if it fails, the town will go under.
The guy who was behind the kids disappearing and aiding and abetting the monster by knocking innocents out and taking them to the monster to be killed - I thought this might be a parallel to Sam and the BMoL even before they said the guy was the sheriff's brother.
"As with the Colt and sex, Dean's more interested in his burger than anything else. I got a MoC Dean vibe about how he's trying to relish in things he normally would to create the illusion he's okay, but he's not ("I think questioning their legacy, what they'll leave behind, etc. is giving us some insight on where he is this season when everyone around him is telling him that what he's spent his whole life doing is wrong, has been done the wrong way, or wasn't good enough - his Mom, Sam - not so much Cas, but Cas has disappeared without a trace. Dean feels left behind, and the show is showing us that he's being left behind when it comes to his lack of presence/importance when a hunt has anything to do with the BMoL - IMO)."
When Dean and Sam found the sheriff's murder room in the basement, the sheriff started talking about how his family had a secret, and Dean's like 'The best ones do,' because obviously the Winchesters have been living with a secret of their own for their entire lives. The sheriff's put a stop to his family's dark legacy by locking it away and wanting to help people. This parallels Dean's thoughts on hunting going all the way back to episode 1.2 (Saving people comes before killing things).
Then we have the sheriff's brother saying a reversal of what Dean said about the family business (I was already thinking about episode 1.2 because of what the sheriff had said and then the sheriff's brother came out with a 'hunting people, killing them, the family business,')
What's killing a few innocents if it saves the town? Parallel to Sam and his philosophy change that makes him line up with the BMoL this season. I'd think at this point that maybe the parallel was with either Sam or the BMoL, because of the half-brother thing and the BMoL being like a half-brother of the Winchester legacy, but then we have the sheriff and his brother talking about the plan, the brother saying, he's being following it his whole life and had gotten nothing but crap for it - this to me makes it clearer it's Sam. He's saving the town. He's the hero, etc. And then Sam kills him and is the hero by bursting into the freezer to kill Moloch (something he's been doing ever since they started working with/for the BMoL and using their weapons - the same way the sheriff's brother was planning on the riches (Sam's normal life) and saving the town by working with Moloch).
More legacy talk from the sheriff when his brother's dead. "This is my legacy."
The next scene is Dean talking about legacy at the bunker sealing his parallel with the sheriff.
Sorry, Bella, but I did not like the brothers carving letters into the table, because I didn't think it fit. If you're going to pull out the big guns like that, then you need to save it for a more meaningful episode - unless the Bunker is about to go bye bye, the brothers are about to be on the outs over the BMoL and Mary, or one of the brothers is about to die, it didn't fit in at this point in the season. If this changes at any point in the next few episodes, then I may revise my opinion of it, but right now - not a fan.
"Why does Ketch keep looking at that photo of Mary?"
I think it's supposed to show his one weakness at this point and perhaps the only thing that could be used to stop him.
"Isn't Amanda Tapping the woman who played Naomi?"
Yes, she is! It will be her 16th Directing credit (Her first for Supernatural), and of what she's directed, quite a bit of it has been sci-fi/horror/fantasy. I'm interested to see how it turns out.
You would think Dean and Sam would notice the listening device, because it's gigantic, but I'm guessing the listening device is what lets the BMoL know where the Colt is, and then after the Colt is gone, maybe . . . maybe if we're lucky, Dean might look under the table when he goes to reach for the Colt and finds it's not there. Still not sure the Winchesters are going to catch on to the BMoL for a few more episodes though.
I think it's pretty cool that Amanda Tapping is directing this too.
Hey Bella,
Maybe this will help?
<a href="http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Category:Transcripts">SPN Wiki: Transcripts</a>
"However, I'm bracing myself for more BMOL, fast growing devil baby, and .... sigh, Lucifer."
There is so much more potential there for other things, and this is what we're stuck with for now. It's so disappointing. :(
What would be the big bad: Revenged-fueled and unstable Michael
What creatures would you introduce: Aswangs; River hags, like Jenny Greenteeth; Wampus cat, but scary; Two-face/sharp elbows; a Kraken in a lake; mermaids, not the zanna kind, the murderous kind; a basilisk; Spring-heeled Jack - mentioned in the Benders, but as we know, it was the Benders, not Spring-heeled Jack; Koschei; Succubi and Incubi; and better hybrids than Jefferson Starships.
Any past characters you'd have return? Since Pamela is dead, Missouri, but if Pamela could come back, that'd be great.
What would be the big story arch: Michael gets out of the cage. He's unstable, as Lucifer has said, and is done following what he thinks is Chuck's plan. The Winchesters don't stop him for a change, and he succeeds in creating an Apocalyptic-landscape across the world in a relatively short amount of time. There are more monsters than people when he's done, and they're all fighting over a limited food source. The job then turns from trying to prevent the bad things from happening to saving as many people as possible now that the bad thing has happened.
Any side stories: Possibly different monster and demon factions rise to confront one another over human resources, and these could be the focus of the next season after Michael is ultimately defeated.
Just out of curiosity, what are your top 10 scenes for the series?
Okay, but if they bring Michael back and have him have a showdown with Lucifer, that's the Apocalypse Dean and Sam tried to stop in season 5, the one that would have wiped out half the planet. If they're planning to go there, then I'm all for it . . . you know, turn this into a post-apocalyptic show, but I don't think they will go there. It's too expensive unless they can find a way around it and still make it look good. If they bring Michael back and don't plan to have an apocalypse, then there's really no point in bringing him back until Lucifer is gone. Once Lucifer is dealt with they can do something with Michael, but that's really only if the show is planning to go past 300 episodes and needs something else.
I'd love to see Michael, because I think there's more story there for them to delve into than there is with Lucifer. In fact, I would've preferred them to get Michael out of the cage instead of Lucifer, but they didn't, and I don't think they plan on doing it either (Unless this goes past 300 episodes. I'm less and less sure that it will). Also, Chuck said something about Michael not being up for confronting Amara, which sort of confirmed what Lucifer said about him.
It wasn't THE cage. Rowena brought Lucifer from THE cage to that cage. That's why Michael wasn't there.
"No I didn't find the parallels flattering for either brother."
I didn't mind Dean's parallel with the sheriff. The sheriff had been trying to do the right thing since he was put in charge of the family business and wanted to make up for their past by helping people. He got burnt out, because doing the right thing never panned out for him. He was interested in taxidermy instead of finding a missing kid, the same way Dean was focused on a waitress and a burger instead of doing the hunt. I think it's an honest account of where Dean is right now.
I guess the sheriff's legacy was a dead brother after said brother went bad. Taking that into account, I don't know. Maybe you're right. Maybe they will turn Sam into the villain, but they haven't been showing it . . . like at all. We haven't seen Sam pondering anything on his own this season, whether it's Mary or the BMoL, anything, and if they want a big twist, maybe that's why they haven't shown any of those things. Maybe that's why they made such a show of having Dean and Sam carve their initials into the table, not because the bunker is about to be destroyed, but because their relationship is. Maybe this is the way they've decided to deal with J2s being on the show less. Maybe maybe that's why Jared is so excited about the finale . . . But I don't think the show will go there even though the brothers have seemed apart while standing next to one another all season. Fans will complain about it, but they can live with it. What many fans probably won't live with is a separation of the brothers for long.
As it stands and until we're shown more of Sam going full-on baddie, I think Sam seemed genuinely appalled by what Mick did to the werewolf girl in the hospital. I think we're supposed to believe he's either filtering out information to make what the BMoL are doing not be what he's hearing, or he doesn't actually believe that's what they're doing, so they can drag this BMoL thing out as long as possible. He hasn't actually been involved in any of these hunts where they wipe out entire monster families. And I think that just like with Dean, Mick talking about what the BMoL did in the 20s, was something Sam mostly thought was a discussion about the past from a guy who only ever read about werewolves in a historical context . . . until Mick killed the girl in the hospital.
It's a storyline that at best paints Sam as a denier of what's going on when it's spelled out to him, because he only wants to see the good and is willing to live with the wrongdoing as long as he doesn't see it. It is something that we tend to look upon harshly when people have been in similar situations historically and isn't something that is good for his character, but it doesn't make him an outright villain. In theory, he could come back from it. Who the hell knows what Dean knows at this point. Almost everything of importance has been talked about off-screen this season.
" Sam never faced any push back for that act."
He did from me, but I know that doesn't matter in terms of the show. :)
Out of all the things Sam has done, I consider that to be his worst, because she was awake and aware of what was happening. And as far as I know, Dean still has no idea that happened with the nurse. Nobody outside Sam and Ruby know about it.
"Dean has the excuse of not being in that room when the vamp crap went down but I hold him responsible for continuing to work with the men of letters when the werewolves were mentioned."
But this is what he did in working with Ruby even though he knew Ruby was a demon. Also, while Mick may have said that about the werewolves in the 20s, Dean was quick to say not all werewolves were bad in a conversation about the past I'm sure he thought was hypothetical until Mick killed the girl in the hospital, and then Dean confronted him about it. I think Mick, as their new face of the BMoL, had changed enough by the end of the episode by helping Claire and saving Dean, that Dean was willing to give Mick another chance (Just like he gave Ruby a chance after Heaven and Hell). Why is he then continuing to work with the BMoL now that Ketch is the face of the BMoL? Because Sam. It doesn't mean he's happy about it, hence the reason he is trying to pretend like he's okay by focusing on things, like the Colt, waitresses, and burgers.
Also, if you believe like I do that the sheriff's brother was a parallel with Sam, then the brother's actions in sacrificing innocents to 'save the town' and for personal gain wasn't flattering. The brother flipping around Dean's philosophy on the family business wasn't flattering and neither was the brother saying, "I'm the hero. You're dead," just before Sam shot him.
"But also I can't pretend Sam was in that room when the descriptions of wiping out all vamps was discussed. He knows there are good vamps, he knows there are vamp victims who could be cured. But Dabb got him to sign on."
No I agree, but I'm also thinking back to when Ruby convinced Sam to drain that nurse who was possessed but fully awake. It's just that instead of Ruby we have Mary as a representative of the BMoL convincing him to do it.