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CluelessDrifter's Replies
"Because and please go with me and call me a SJW if you want and say werewolf is unreliable but the way that guy talked he was raised in a family within that pack."
So, should I call you a WSJW - Werewolf social justice warrior? ;)
Somewhat OT, but I feel like this season, we're seeing what the BMoL have been doing, because Dabb thinks it's a way of doing something we've already seen in a way we haven't seen it. For instance, imagine if we'd seen Ruby doing whatever it is she did off screen in season 4. How much worse would Sam have looked if we saw Ruby's plans throughout season 4? Dean had a bad feeling about working with her and Sam using his powers, and he was as right then as he is now, but if we saw why he was right every episode, because we saw what she was doing behind their backs, you would've felt similarly then as you do now. Think about how much more annoyed you might have been with Sam in season 4 for doing things, like using his powers, drinking demon blood, draining that nurse to kill Lilith, or killing Lilith if you'd known since the start of the season what Ruby's motivations were and what she was doing behind the scenes? Think about how much more annoyed you would've been with Dean for reluctantly agreeing to work with Ruby in IKWYDLS and Heaven and Hell if you knew Ruby's motivations for helping them in those episodes.
We're seeing everything from the BMoL perspective and getting nothing from the Winchesters' perspective, which is why we're not seeing the conversations we're used to seeing on screen this year. They're still having them, I guess, but off-screen. That's where the concept is most flawed, because it doesn't make for an enjoyable viewing experience if you are a fan of the Winchesters. If they'd kept the BMoL off screen all season, and we never saw the things they were doing, we'd be as surprised by the turn when it happens as Sam will (not Dean, because again, Dean has been right about them and is reluctantly working with them because it's what Sam wants, just like with what happened with Ruby in season 4 even though he knew she was a demon . . . until he saw Sam drinking demon blood and then his reluctant cooperation changed). I'm guessing that's also what's going on with Cas. We're going to see him come back different, because he'll be more in line with his season 4 way of thinking when it comes to the nephilim and Winchesters either through reprogramming or just wanting to fall in line with his fellow angels.
"As much as I would like Dean to take a time out to find out what he as a person actually wants I don't think Dabb has the balls to actually do it."
Ah no, I don't see him leaving if Mary dies, but I don't think she's going to die. If they think Mary sacrificing herself for her sons will make me like her, they're wrong. *SPOILER* Especially if they have Dean confront her about everything going back to Azazel's deal, which he's supposed to do in episode 22. *END SPOILER* I would be supremely pissed off if he vents on her and then she turns around and sacrifices herself, because A) Dean would blame himself for everything he said to her and would think it's his fault she chose to sacrifice herself to make it right; and B) Going back to Heaven is what she wants, and she's been doing what she wants all season. If they want to redeem her, then they have to put more effort into it and make her really sacrifice what she wants by not dying and by making her stick around to fix what she broke.
"then it shows Sam and Mary are dicks and should be considered the possible big bads of the next season."
I don't think they'll continue to work with the BMoL once they find out the BMoL have been killing people and are coming after them, but I do think they'll want to continue with the types of toys the BMoL have and some of their ideas, otherwise why would both of them think that the BMoL are doing things better and changing the world? They'll want to start up their own US MoL, and while Dean loves his room in the bunker and has proudly said he's a legacy a few times since the concept of MoL was introduced, it's something this show has strongly implied is more Sam's thing (and to excess this season). If Sam rebuilds the MoL in the US, then I see Dean sticking with hunting. I don't know where Mary fits into that, but I'm guessing that she'll want to be a part of helping to organize things the way she's seen them done with the BMoL.
"And sorry about not saying about the colt as thought you had seen the blurb for the next episode."
Ha. Oh no, I have. I just wasn't sure if you had.
Dean has been very much depicted as an uncivilized caveman compared to the BMoL, particularly with the Negan bat. I think him hitting on the waitress as well as his focus on the Colt and hamburger were meant to show that he doesn't have the same interest in hunting when it's under the umbrella of working for the BMoL, while Sam and Mary have both been flourishing under them. I'm expecting some kind of fracturing between Dean and the rest of his family. Dabb said this season was about finding out what hunting meant to the characters and their views on how they wanted to do it, and Dean does not fit in with Sam and Mary's thoughts on either of those things at this time. The only thing keeping Dean there is Sam, but if Sam keeps choosing Mary/BMoL/everything else over Dean (which he has been doing in small and more blatant ways all season), then something has to give, and I see Dean walking away (even if it's just for the summer). He's very unhappy right now, hence the waitress, burger, Colt, and thoughts on what his legacy are, and if Mary comes back, I could seem him thinking, 'They can watch one another's backs. I'll be back if they need help, but peace out until then.' Especially if something happens in the finale that gets someone they know killed because of the BMoL.
"And part of me thinks he will get the colt in the next episode as it goes missing and the only other two people who would take it would be Cas (though why? To kill Kelly's baby?) or Mary (on Ketch's request)."
Yeah, I didn't want to say that, because I wasn't sure if you'd seen the spoiler yet or not. :)
"Driven ice queens with a killing streak."
He certainly has a type.
"as much as I would like Dean to kill him and actually get a kill this season I do see Mary being the one to kill Ketch in some half arsed redemption arc."
Yeah, I'd like Dean matched against Ketch with Dean coming out on top too, but unfortunately, I see it going to Mary. I'm not sure it'll happen this season though. I really want to be rid of this BMoL storyline, but who knows how many of them there actually are, and I doubt they'll kill Toni. I think we're stuck with it for season 13 too.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm still not sure. He seems pretty happy to be let off his leash with regard to the Winchesters. I think it's a case of getting to know everything about them, so he can use it to bring them down. He's the first villain other than Crowley to take them seriously. Slowing it down . . . Yeah, he is, because all he had to do was kill them in their sleep. Maybe you're right, but I really just think it's to continue to draw out the arc as long as possible by having him metaphorically pissing all over their home under the guise of getting the Colt back, which he must do soon, and finding out as much about them as he can before he makes his move. I think seeing Mary's picture stopped him in his tracks and made him make a mistake hinting that she is the only chink in his armor that can be used to beat him at this point.
I agree his obsession with Mary is going somewhere. I'm just not sure that it's saving her sons. Taking her under the pretense of controlling them, so he doesn't have to kill her and then really using the time he has to attempt to woo her in a twisted way is something I could see him doing.
"And Badass Dean has apparently had his cajones snipped off."
And I think this started right after he had the MoC removed. It's just that I expected more of a payoff from it than we got in season 11, so it all seems pointless now and has only gotten worse this season. And yet here I am still hoping for more of a payoff again. Daft, I know.
"Instead it’s all gotten so tame & flat and dull. The Winchesters are reduced to wallpaper. And Badass Dean has apparently had his cajones snipped off. Mother Mary, Snotty Brits give orders, Cas goes to heaven, Demon Baby, Crowley & Luci bicker...critical conversations take place off screen - - none of it’s working. They’ve forgotten the past 11 years we’ve shared with Sam and Dean. We tune in FOR Sam and Dean. We want THEM leading and involved in the stories. The Amara season was bad enough, but season 12 is absolutely abysmal."
These are all of my same problems with this season.
"Thanks, yes it is interesting BUT can't say I like his comment about deepening his relationship with Mary. For the first time in 10 years I just am not terribly interested as I hate the BMOL"
*POTENTIAL SPOILERS THROUGHOUT*
I also hate the BMoL. Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with them going into next year. There are only 5 episodes left, and Dean and Sam still have no idea how truly villainous the BMoL are. From the looks of things, they won't find out in the next episode, and in the episode after that, Mary only starts having doubts about them (I'm guessing it has something to do with Toni coming back).
Dean and Sam still don't know that Lucifer is topside and with Crowley either, so that has to be dealt with as does where Cas has been and what he's been doing. Plus, they have to figure out what to do about Dagon (I expect this to be dealt with in the next episode), Kelly, and the nephilim, which is where all of their focus has been. I'm not expecting them to find out about the BMoL until the end of episode 21/start of episode 22 but most of their focus will be on Kelly/nephilim by that point (*SPOILER* And whatever reason Jody has to be in 22), and that leaves Lucifer and the BMoL to do something in the finale that will be the set up for next year.
"Sorry this is totally off topic (lucky I am not commenting on PT as I would get a hand slap!)."
No worries. One of the strongest things about this board is you can say what you want where you want.
"There have been a lot of comments here and on Previously TV that Jensen (and Jared) have been negotiating more time off in their contracts and I certainly see lots more pictures with them at home or out and about with their families but what I don't understand is if they want more time with their families why they do so many cons."
If you can get paid the same or more for less time worked AND do cons, I could see wanting to do that without it contradicting wanting to also spend more time with family. You are getting more time with your family, it's just at the expense of hours worked, and you're also getting more money with the cons added (plus, you get to travel to more than just Vancouver). On a personal level, it very much makes sense.
"Surely it would be better to commit time to the episodes rather than spend so much time going to and from cons?"
But the cons are done in their free time, which they've negotiated off, so it doesn't really impact the show if they were already going to have that free time off.
Is their time off noticed on the show? Yes. But I think that's down to writing and demands from the most vocal of fans.
And this time you were spot on. Well done!
Yeah, the Colt has to go . . . again. The only way around it making everything too easy if they don't get rid of it is to delve more into the 5 things it can't kill, but what about everything else they come up against in the meantime? If anyone can get a shot on Dagon, we know it'll work on her. It killed the Alpha vamp. It kills gods. Unless it falls out of the Winchesters' hands every episode, there's no suspense there. On the other hand, it would make traveling a lot lighter for them. No need for the arsenal in the trunk if all they need is the Colt for everything except Lucifer, and apparently now a magic egg is all they need for him. :)
Hey Bella. Congrats! You're the winner this week.
"It was hinted that it was going last episode"
I picked up on this too. I think it's the real reason they had them carve their names into the table in a place they consider a second home.
Your rating = 0?
Did you watch the episode last night?
Is that 3 in a week? They're on a roll.
I agree that the trend of having Dean be absent/inconsequential from every episode since 11 (+LOTUS and American Nightmare) is angering and tiresome, but I think there is a reason for it (maybe I've just never learned my lesson and have to believe there is. Hope springs eternal :| ).
In LOTUS, we saw Sam calling the BMoL and being the one to use the egg. We had Sam killing Ramiel in 12.12 when they were working with the BMoL without their knowledge. Then in 12.14, Sam killed the Alpha. 12.15, Sam killed the hellhound. 12.16, Mick killed the werewolf. 12.17, they were all ineffective with Dagon. 12.18, Sam got both kills. Every time they've used something they've gotten from the BMoL or have worked with the BMoL Sam has gotten the kill (That we've been shown. When Dean didn't know he was working for them, he got kills off screen using the Negan bat, which was IMO, an effort to paint him as more barbaric to Sam in comparison to the BMoL).
Sam is thriving under the BMoL and embraces them. Dean isn't and hasn't, and we know he's right. If Dean was paralleled with the sheriff last night, Sam was paralleled with the sheriff's brother, and I know you haven't watched it, but it wasn't flattering to Sam. He turned Dean's entire philosophy about hunting on its head and was sacrificing innocents for Moloch and personal gain. Dean hasn't done much, and that's what is frustrating people, but I think there is a reason for it. I have my ideas on where I think it's going, but I'll hold off on those for now. All I know is that Dean is acting the same way he did when he had the MoC, just without the kills, so something is definitely bothering him, and that is going to come to a head. They're just being really subtle in their approach.
Twitter was pretty unhappy last night too. The Supernatural Reddit forum is always positive. There's no real dissection of what's going on in the show, just 'That was so awesome!' about everything.