http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/star-wars/58421/george-lucas-on-his-star-wars-sequels-that-never-were
A Star Wars trilogy about midichlorians and whills battling in a microbial world? nthx
I call bullshit on that article. AND that book. I'm sure Lucas was joshing with the author.
I can imagine them being a lot worse than the prequels , with avatar laden effects
shareSounds better than a MaRey Sue movie about nothing.
shareSomething unique and original from the creator of Star Wars instead of the trials and tribulations of a girl named Mary Sue, tough choice!
shareIf you can't accept that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, of course you can't recognize the recent films as being worlds better than the shit Lucas gave you in the prequels.
share^ lol, you are probably trolling your heart out with this obtuse nonsense. But if you really lack the cognitive skills to grasp the concept of Mary Sue writing, and are unabel to apply it to the Rey character, you are truly worthy of the unoriginal, unimaginative rehash that are the sequels.
You are in good company though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeSGexMeWy0
Here's laughing at you, kid. You may go home and rethink your life.
He's right though, no matter how bad you thought the sequels are, they are still better than the prequels
shareThe prequels tried to be great and failed, whereas the sequels aimed for mediocrity and failed even at that. I know which one in my mind counts as the greater failure.
shareAgreed. The prequels failed, that's out of question. But at least Lucas tried to go out of the comfort zone and create something different. Modern ones are just low quality politically driven copypaste.
sharelol, better in what regard, desperately rehashing the OT and thereby destroying it's mericts, arcs and achievments?
But in terms of storytelling, world building, art design, music and vision the sequels are incomparably inferior and less imaginative than any of the Lucas trilogies. That not an opinion, that is a fact.
The prequels did not preach SJW shit at us every 5 minutes nor were they unoriginal cash cows, of which the uncalled for sequels very much are.
shareU sure about that ? More female characters in the prequels I'd say
shareThe prequels did not preach SJW issues unlike the sequels with characters like Vice Admiral Gender Studies or near perfect characters like the ever boring Rey.
The only dumb thing they did was have teen elected Queens of Naboo which made little sense, possibly some old tradition but never explained in the films.
I complained about that queen thing too, girlfriend said it was a symbol of the uncorrupted innocence of power, like maybe with Dalai Lama or elective monarchies.
Whatever, neat way to have a puppet monarch (like Palps showed when turning her to vote against Valorum), and she surely fled the golden nest as soon as she fulfilled her arc of overcoming her advisors and making plans of her own.
Keep spewing your nonsense. No one is listening other than your tiny group here on the boards, but keep at it if it makes you feel big and strong.
sharehey Buffy, no reason to get defensive and pulling the three echo-chamber monkeys on me. Writing theory and analytical thinking is not for everyone, if you ever feel ready to be enlightned on the subject, give me a call.
shareBut if you really lack the cognitive skills to grasp the concept of Mary Sue writing, and are unabel to apply it to the Rey character
lol at how drama queen-ish you got, froger. You got the heart, but you lack the brains. The same absurd Luke-Rey writing comparison was debunked by facts months ago and your surrender was accepted:
https://moviechat.org/tt2527336/Star-Wars-Episode-VIII-The-Last-Jedi/5abb685d726ee40014467a6c/Reys-power-make-since-if-her-mother-fucked-a-force-ghost?reply=5abbf150726ee40014467d00
Lets put it on again, shall we:
- Rey understands all languages, including Wookie and droid speak - Luke does not;
- Rey is a formidable fighter beating up thugs and scaring off scavengers away from their loot - Luke is not, he is beaten up several times (by the sand people & in the bar) and is in need of protection and help throughout the movie (Han, Obi Wan);
- Rey is noble and strong; Luke is whiny, reckless and weak. Rey despite being raised by ruthless scavengers such as Unkar Putt has developed an superhuman morality compelling her to starve rather than to betray a little droid she just met – Luke treats droids like property/slaves;
- Despite hating guns Rey immediately becomes an (untrained) formidable marks man hitting everything at a great distance while running away and shooting a stranger’s gun; Rey can even (incredibly) aim with the turret while she is piloting or hit 3 Ties with her first shot - Luke cannot, despite being trained with guns/rifles he is an average shot at best missing many, many shots;
- People and droids follow Rey like puppies, especially BB-8 (who is useless because Rey does all mechanics/engineering and door opening alone) – Luke seems not to have this fascinating effect, his droid R2 tricks him and runs away from him;
- Rey wants to stay home but only leaves for loyalty and compassion for her new friends and destiny - Luke wants to leave home, but stays out of weakness and loyalty (Owen/Beru);
- Rey is her own self-employed master and independent – Luke is not, he is Owen's subservient lackey;
- Rey the scavenger is an incredible ace pilot: Without a copilot or any experience with the ship she masterfully pilots the bulky Falcon through an abandoned destroyer and graveyard under fire outmaneuvering trained combat pilots - Luke does not even understand how the cockpit of the MF works ("what's that flashing?");
- While flying alone, Rey performs incredible stunt piloting moves, including aligning the Falcon in midair so that Finn just has to pull the trigger ("How did you do that? - I don't know – That was some flying – It was PERFECT") - Luke however is mocked, derided and not allowed to pilot, despite being set up as a pilot; and even in empty space in his X-Wing Luke needs constant assistance from R2 and other pilots and Han, who sacrifice themselves for him.
- Rey circumvents the security of Starkiller so that the explosive charges can be placed and the SK base be destroyed - Luke has no such abilities, he needs R2 to get saved from the trash compactor;
- Rey saves herself out of captivity, and only does not flee so that the team can blow up Starkiller, without her they would be lost - Luke plan to save Leia is amateurish and Leia takes over the lead when his poorly thought out plan fails miserably;
- Rey is an incredible mechanic and even a brilliant engineer stunning even Han (“I bypassed the compressor”) and despite her starved condition a great climber and spelunker - - Luke does not show such talents;
- Rey can do advanced Jedi Force tricks without training, like telekinesis, mind tricks, mind reading etc - Luke needs training for very basic Force abilities (knowing when to shoot the torpedo), and only reaches Rey's ability level when he is a trained Jedi;
- Rey beats the main antagonist (Kylo, Master of the Ren) several times with untrained Force and sword skills - Luke does not even come near the main antagonist (Vader), except for being nearly shot down by him and being saved by others;
- Rey is better with everything and bests everyone at their game (Han, Finn, Kylo, droids etc), even Luke & Poe were partially removed from the script so they cannot steal her spotlight; everybody becomes her cheerleader (Leia, Chewie, Finn etc) - Luke is a undecided zero at the beginning: Han is cooler, Obi is more powerful, Leia his sister is lightyears ahead of him (leader, senator), his friends such as Biggs are ahead of him too;
- Rey is the only hot young girl around with a posh accent - Luke is an average small farmboy, one of many kids, who mostly left him behind already;
- Rey gets a glorification hug for no apparent reason from the VIP Resistance leader (Leia) who she never met before instead of Leia's old friend Chewie or all the returning heroes who Leia leads - Luke does not get any unwarranted hugs but only after he succeeds and after he becomes friends with the huggers (Leia/Han);
tbc...
- Rey becomes captain of the MF after Han's death, stepping over Chewie who “likes her” and looks at her in an adoring way (like everybody else, the Rebels are even waving her collectively goodbye when she leaves) - Luke does not get any positions and is violently pushed away by Chewie;
- Rey is sent on the most important mission to find Luke, leaving all his friend and family behind her - Luke does not get any solo missions;
- Rey is so important and special that even long lost light sabers and dead VIP masters like Obi Wan and Yoda call out to her - nobody really calls out to Luke;
- Rey is desired by everybody, but she is hard to get: she either friend zones or emasculates the characters who are fascinated by her - Luke does not even get the girl in the end;
In the end, Rey in TFA gets Han's gun and iconic ship (Falcon), Luke's legacy light saber and R2-droid, and Chewie as a copilot - and she finds MacGuffin-Luke: she is the SOLE HEIR and SAVIOUR of the SW UNIVERSE - Luke gets a medal, but only next to Han, who already is successfully flirting with Luke's wanna-be girlfriend and sister!
And let's not even compare TLJ-Rey to TESB-Luke, you were saying...besides adhoms and curses?
She is a Mary Sue. End of story.
shareFilmBuff, just wanted to be honest to you: You are the last person on that planet which still thinks that Rey isnt the worst Mary Sue ever seen in a movie! You humiliate yourself in front of all this people here. Just wanted to let you know about this fact! It was funny for me for a while (a SJW fanatic humiliating himself is always fun), but now I thought that yu should know that and have at least the chance to stop humiliating yourself here.
shareThe small but vocal group here sure thinks she is, but outside of your in-denial bunch, no one thinks so. You certainly can't offer a rational argument to support your belief. As for your idiotic assumption that I have anything in common with the SJW crowd, much less that I'm a fanatic, shows how poorly you observe and understand the world around you.
Rey is cut of the same cloth as Luke Skywalker, and nothing she's done has in any way challenged the pre-existing rules set forth by the original trilogy. If you want to make the case that those who are strong with the Force are *all* Mary Sues, well, go ahead, but as for Rey being any different from anyone we've met in the prior films, you have no leg to stand on.
Jesus Titty Fucking Christ reading your's and Froggy's cult like denials of reality is infuriating. Let me give you some names:
Leia
Mara Jade
Padame
Mon Mothma
Bastila Shan
Kreia
Ahsoka
This is a list of characters from Star Wars. Do you know what links them? They all, every single last one of them, have vaginas. And they're all 'strong' and powerful. And they're all loved by the fans. So can you explain to me why all these misogynists had zero problem with female characters until JJA wrote one with less depth than an After 8 mint?
Would you like to list for me all the well written female characters JJ has written to date? Or shall I save you effort by telling you the obvious answer? Do you remember this scene?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTmXQHjpODA
This is how JJ was treating his female characters up until TFA.
JJA is a hack and when he wrote Rey he set back the progression of female characters in sci-fi/fantasy by about 30 years. This is painfully obvious to anyone with eyes that see and a brain free of delusion.
gosh Buffy, this dumbs down per sentence.
I love the "minority" fallacy in lieu of arguments, it's the same deflective snake that just bit Lucasfim in their ass. Only people with inferiority complexes pull the minority fallacy btw.
As for your "Rey is cut of the same cloth as Luke Skywalker, and nothing she's done has in any way challenged the pre-existing rules set forth by the original trilogy.": L-O-L, there are countless of threads and articles debunking that nonsense - don't look far, just see a few posts above: There is a detailed comparison of Rey-Luke in TFA-ANH.
Facts don't agree with you, do they? Speaking of "how poorly you observe and understand the world around you"...
Well, actually that could be quite an interesting idea.
If those Whills can control the Force, and the Force can control people, what we would have is an invisible enemy that could twist people's minds, perhaps even bodies. How you fight that? Not an evil empire, not some nazi parody, not some Sith cult, but a parasitic menace. Star Wars would go much closer to modern horror. Star Wars would go into Alien territory.
And to be honest, why not?
Modern Star Wars is just a (bad) remake from the original trilogy. Damn, at least that would be something new!! It seems crazy? Well, everybody thought Star Wars was a crazy idea back in the 70s. And everybody thought pulp stories were B-movies until Lucas wrote Raiders of the Lost Ark. Sure Lucas has made quite a few mistakes, but he has nailed it more than once too.
Lucas was always a good idea man. Given the right writers and directors, his ideas would make epic films.
shareagreed, if he would of wrote the sequels but got guest directors it could of been epic
shareI feel the same way about the prequels. There's nothing wrong with the stories themselves. It's the execution that's the problem.
sharei actually really like the prequels stories , but the way they were executed was just so poor, remember way back when i first watched A new hope always envisaged Anakin being some bad ass star fighter pilot having heard the word " he was the best star fighter pilot in the galaxy...and a good friend" instead we got some weiner irritating kid and an even worst teenage poorly written wooden character.
shareThe stories are chief among many, many flaws in the prequels. There is no narrative motion, and no reason given for any action other than "we must get from point A (Anakin is good) to point B (Anakin is bad). Zero attention was paid to plot, story, character development, or motive. The films were 100% CGI-driven spectacle.
shareWe're talking about the stories, not the writing.
shareI'm lumping both together, as they are part and parcel in those films. Lucas had no clear story to tell, with events and actions happening more or less at random to fill screen time and offer excuses for CGI robots and creatures to roam the screen.
shareThe story is just the basic concept. What you are describing is plot, characters, directing, etc.
shareSo what would you say is the basic concept of the prequels, beyond "Obi Wan trains Anakin, a good guy, who becomes a bad guy. We'll kill time with random political intrigue that needn't be explained. Lots of CGI animals and robots will wander in and out of the frame. Oh, and Anakin has to knock someone up at some point. Ohh, and let's include a Rastafarian alien, for yucks."
sharePhantom Menace - Sith Lord orchestrates a rift between the Trade Federation and the Galactic Senate, pitting both sides against one another while a pair of Jedis, a queen, and a young slave try to get to the bottom of it.
Attack of the Clones - Anakin and Obi-Wan must protect Amidala from Count Dooku and his Separatist army. Anakin falls closer to the Darkside as his love for Amidala grows stronger. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan uncovers a secret Clone Army that was previously financed by the Jedi Council.
Revenge of the Sith - In the aftermath of the Clone Wars, Anakin grows more disenfranchised by the Jedi Council as he struggles to keep his marriage to Amidala a secret. They finally learn the identity of the Sith Lord who has been behind everything for the past decade or so, but it's too late as the Empire is finally created.
All ideas are solid. They just need a storyteller.
Consider what you've done-- you've pulled out the aspects of the story you best like to create a story that makes some kind of sense, and omitted an awful lot that doesn't.
The story of Phantom Menace includes a long, pointless diversion to the Gungan city replete with many fun adventures with Jar Jar, a long episode on Tatooine where we see massive amounts of pod-racing, and a grand battle on Naboo where Jar Jar and the child save the day.
To pretend that those aren't part of the story is to willfully blind yourself to why said story is so poorly constructed. And The Phantom Menace, as terrible as it is, is the best of the three prequels. The stories become more convoluted and nonsensical as the films progress.
All of that stuff is in the script, not the premise.
A good writer could have replaced Jar-Jar with a different character or simply written him better. A good writer could have taken away the pod race scene and found another reason to introduce Anakin. A good writer could have written decent dialogue that made us care about the characters. It isn't hard.
No, those are all a part of the basic story. You've cherry-picked the least awkward details of the story, but to say that over half of the film isn't actually a part of the premise or story is incorrect.
At its core, the most basic story of The Phantom Menace is that two Jedi Knights encounter an inept exile, and after a failed attempt to reunite him with his people they find themselves stranded on a planet in time to witness a child win a pod race. The child tests high for the genetic marker that identify a Jedi, so they rescue him from slavery in order to train him. While a Sith lord plots to divide the Trade Federation and the Galactic Senate, the inept exile and child pod race champion accidentally save the day in the Battle for Naboo, while the Jedi encounter a fearsome menace who proves too skilled for the master, but is easily dispatched by the student, despite the fact that he should have remained a menace for the entire goddamned prequel trilogy.
You're hopeless.
shareYou just can't admit what you've done with your recaps.
Die Hard - A chance encounter with a debonair stranger at a holiday party leads to an estranged couple rethinking the reasons for their separation.
Sure, and the goddamn building blows up, but that's script not premise.
Sure, and the goddamn building blows up, but that's script not premise.
The bottom line is, be it script, premise, direction, execution, or anything else, no matter how you slice 'em, the prequels are weak.
The Force Awakens gave us everything a modern Star Wars film should be, and included some of the most powerful moments in the franchise. It breathed fresh life into a moribund franchise.
George Lucas had his moments, but whatever spark he had he lost a long time ago. You can see the beginning of the end in Return of the Jedi, and by the time he made the prequels he was an egotistical hack.
So sure, we can extract one of the many, many storylines running rampant through the prequels and say "in capable hands this could be something great," but we have to ignore a lot of equally valid, and utterly crappy, story before we're left with just that bit.
I'd love to see someone of J.J. Abrams caliber tackle the Darth Vader story. Throw out everything other than what's revealed in the original films, and let a skilled writer craft a much better tale than the one Lucas shoved down our throats.
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lol, Buffy you amaze me every time.The prequels are of the best and most relevant storylines in recent memory.
Notwithstanding the art design, production values and imagination they are about the fall of democracy and the rise of demagogues and totaliarism.
We see the Empire grow out of the Republic like a dark side tumor (un-balance of the Force) - it's even seen in vehicle evolution eg the tiny Jedi (police) Fighter turns into a huge military Star Destroyer in Ep2. And we see a good man stumbling over his attachments, and becoming the very thing he swore to destroy.
Unlike the OT the PT was planned in advance, we see Anakin stumble over conflicts planted in I, we see Palpatine plan systematically materialize step by step.
No wonder Prof Camille Paglia believes that Revenge of the Sith is the greatest work of art in recent memory.
There is no narrative motion, and no reason given for any action other than "we must get from point A (Anakin is good) to point B (Anakin is bad)
Well, actually that makes it way deeper than the new ones. where you have Rey going from point A (Rey is empowered and independent) to point B (Roy is empowered and independent). Poe goes from point A (Poe is impulsive and has issues with authority) to point B (Poe is impulsive and has issues with authority). Rose goes from point A (Rose makes no sense) to point B (Rose makes no sense).
However, it's true that there's some evolution in the old characters. Han Solo goes from point A (Han is a divorced but still charming smuggler) to point B (Han is dead), or Luke, who goes from point A (Luke feels that he's a failure as a Jedi) to point B (Luke is dead).
No crap. Lucas learned nothing from his idiocy with the midichloreans and was doubling down on it. And that idea is straight from the same idiotic thinking of Crystal Skull. The space between spaces! He has lost his mind! I think they're interesting ideas, but those aren't Star Wars ideas. Make a new movie. Not everything has to be shoe horned into your franchise.
shareHe has lost his mind! I think they're interesting ideas, but those aren't Star Wars ideas.
Correction: Lucas didn't get the boot, Lucas sold the boot for four billion dollars!
shareWould it kill him to take some of that $4 billion and breathe life back into FLASH GORDON like he originally planned?
I doubt the owners of said property would say no like they did back in the ‘70s.
🤷♂️
Would it kill him to take some of that $4 billion and breathe life back into FLASH GORDON like he originally planned?
You’d be wrong, Frog.
Star Wars is based on Akira Kurosawa’s A Hidden Fortress.
An empress(cough, Amidala)...runs and hides from her enemies with her trusted samurai guardian(cough, Qui-Gon Jin).
Two bumbling fool comrades running as well but are captured and sold into slavery(R2D2 and C-3PO).
Star Wars is JAPANESE.
Hence the obvious Karate gi worn by the Jedi.
Toshiro Mifune was asked to play Obi-Wan but refused for fear of offending the memory of the samurai.
George Lucas was simply denied the chance to do Flash Gordon and we are all better for it.
But these ignorant assholes are too stupid to see the samurai style helmet of the Death Star crew and the karate gi of the Jedi and just assume Star Wars is based on Nazis and Shakespeare.
Utter morons...
Yeah, Star Wars had more in common with Hidden Fortress than Flash Gordon. Aside from space-faring heroes fighting an evil overlord, there aren't too many similarities between the two. Lucas also took inspiration from Westerns and WWII films. Star Wars is a pastiche film.
shareAP, I refer you to the reply below where I lay out the Flash serial that Lucas wanted to make before he literally turned it into Star Wars.
shareStar Wars is based on Akira Kurosawa’s A Hidden Fortress.
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Ha, you must be deleting an old post every time you do a new post to maintain that number. I approve.
Also, the Flash movie made in 1980 (not using the Planet of Peril story Lucas wanted to adapt) was done because of Star Wars:
It basically all started, as most things do, with George Lucas. The popularity of Star Wars made science-fiction big business. Ironically, before Lucas made Star Wars, he asked Italian film producer Dino De Laurentiis for the rights to make a film based on the 1930s action and adventure comic strip icon Flash Gordon. De Laurentiis shrewdly denied Lucas' request. In turn Lucas went on to create his own little-known action adventure space epic; Star Wars. After the success of Star Wars, De Laurentiis knew it was time to film his Flash Gordon saga.share
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As someone who has seen both Hidden Fortress and A New Hope, the comparisons are evident. Just swap samurai for Jedi, space for feudal Japan, the two thieves for two droids, the hidden fortress for the Death Star, etc. As for Flash Gordon, of course Lucas was influenced. No one has ever said otherwise. In fact, Lucas himself said he loved Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers as a kid. You realize someone can have more than one influence, right? There's a shot of X-wing fighters flying in formation that Lucas took from WW2 footage, for instance. A New Hope is no different than Pulp Fiction. Both movies have a ton of references to previous films.
shareBut the thing with Flash Gordon is that "Planet of Peril" is the story Lucas was going to adapt when he was seeking the Flash Gordon license.
That fell through, but he kept the core storyline I pointed out, and simply re-wrote it. He worked in other influences like Hidden Fortress, The Dam Busters, westerns, etc.
If the deal had gone through, Lucas would have made this instead of A New Hope:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNp-WEwQn24
Yes. I know. He wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, couldn't, then used the FG mythos as a reference. So what?
sharesorry, the similarities between Fortress and SW are an urban myth rather than reality;
"Just swap the two thieves for two droids":
Which thieves? Are you talking about the greedy peasants who try to run away from war and crave the gold reward...and discuss raping the princess? Not very much alike the droids..and comedic character duos have been in film since Abbot and Costello and before...
"Just swap the hidden fortress for the Death Star":
Not so: the Hidden Fortress was a mere home hideout in the mountains from where the adventure started (unimportant for the story)- the Death Star is a destructive superweapon the entire story revolves around.
"Just swap samurai for Jedi, space for feudal Japan": Feudal Japan with samurai is in it's heyday, while in ANH the Jedi as samurai are long extinct.
In Fortress there is no Han, no Luke, no Vader no Empire no anything defining Star Wars. Still, film historians agree that the only real influence were technical ones, like camera swipes.
https://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-hidden-fortress
In 2001, when The Criterion Collection put out a new DVD version of The Hidden Fortress, they sat George Lucas down to talk about the film’s influence on Star Wars. “I remember the one thing that really struck me about The Hidden Fortress,” he said, “the one thing I was really intrigued by, was the fact that the story was told from the two lowest characters. I decided that would be a nice way to tell the Star Wars story. Take the two lowliest characters, as Kurosawa did, and tell the story from their point of view. Which, in the Star Wars case is the two droids, and that was the strongest influence. The fact that there was a princess trying to get through enemy lines was more of a coincidence than anything else. In my film, the princess is more of a stand-and-fight kind of princess. In the beginning, in one of the first drafts, I did have a little bit more of her and a Jedi, an older Jedi, trying to escape, but then it evolved into the story of Luke.”share
Oh and here, someone even made the opening scroll for Planet Of Peril, which is what A New Hope was going to be before the Flash license acquisition fell through:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNp-WEwQn24
See? That's exactly what I described in my previous post.
I'm sure 99.9% of Star Wars fans know Lucas took the opening scroll from movie serials like Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. That's also where he got the "Episode ...." idea from. Star Wars is a giant movie serial. Always has been. That does not take away criticism from TFA.
I'm still curious to know what you think of Tarantino. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCkjju3OaTM
Tarantino is to movies what a really good DJ is to remixed music. I like the guy, although he might want to branch out from revenge fantasy movies and perhaps attempt a different concept altogether.
shareI agree. He and Lucas are similar in that they took the movies and stories they liked as kids, threw them in a blender, and made good movies out of them. I don't consider Lucas a genius, nor do I consider Tarantino. But both can make good movies by borrowing from a wide variety of sources and make them entertaining.
That said, if someone made Pulp Fiction 2: Electric Boogaloo and it had an almost identical plot and characters to the first flick, I would pan it as a shallow retread despite the original being a pastiche of other films. Wouldn't you?
It depends on how the retread is done. Quality (aka appeal) is all that really matters. Using "unoriginal" as criticism is very touchy, especially when people who do so also list unoriginal movies as favorites. I'll get to some great examples of that, and retreads, in a moment.
"Unoriginal" is more of a description of a movie's content than it is a criticism in itself. A movie based on a book is technically "unoriginal" and yet they are very common. Someone familiar with the Avengers comics isn't expecting Infinity War to be new and original. This is kind of like criticizing Incredibles 2 for being a "movie for kids," which is just a description, or a guy taking his girlfriend to a "chick flick" and not liking the movie because of that. Being a "chick flick" is not criticism, it is a description, and he simply didn't want to see that kind of movie.
Even a straight-up remake can become a classic. I don't like Scarface with Pacino, but to bash it for being unoriginal, simply because it's a remake, would be silly.
I'll do my examples in a second post, this one might run out of space.
Now for examples...
James Cameron himself says that T2 is a big-budget remake of the first Terminator. It follows the first movie very closely, and even ends with destroying the threat in a factory just like the first. I have yet to find anyone that bashes T2 for being "unoriginal."
Return of the Jedi is, in many ways, another big-budget remake. Lucas wanted to re-do the fight against the Death Star, and even started the movie by finding someone important at a cantina on Tatooine.
The Phantom Menace followed the Star Wars formula by, again, replicating most of A New Hope. It even recreates specific scenes, like Amidala covering Anakin with a blanket on her ship the way Leia did to Luke on the Falcon. It replicates the award ceremony at the end. It replicates finding a powerful new potential Jedi on Tatooine. It replicates the new young guy blowing up the core of the planetary threat and saving the day (but done so poorly in TPM). The biggest change is that instead of a Death Star, we have a system commanding remote controlled armies.... And as for retreading superweapon systems like a Death Star concept, the three prequels were all three about the same superweapon: A controlled, robotic type of army that obeys any command. Obviously a Death-Star-shaped weapon is noticeable and iconic, so it's harder to notice that the prequels were three movies about one single superweapon idea.
Hangover 2 is a great example of a well done retread, IMO. I like it more than the first. It's funnier, edgier, and more confident. It follows the beats and plot points of the first Hangover almost 1:1, many of the same scenes happening but in different ways. It's a great spin on the original, and luckily they left out any dead zones like the entire tiger/Tyson part from the first movie.
A sequel will always have elements of the original. Obviously, the movies you described have a lot in common with the previous film(s) but there are also a lot of things that make it fresh and new.
T2 - The bad guy from the first film is essentially the good guy in the new one (I know they're two different robots but you get the drift). The bad guy in this one is not a hulking brute anymore. He's a machine that can look like anyone, including your own mother or a police officer, which adds a creepy, paranoid aspect to him. It helps that the T-1000 has different abilities and modes of attacks that further set him apart from the previous Terminator. We also see how Sarah has evolved since the last film and we get another new main character in John Conner who was only mentioned the last time around.
ROTJ - The opening scene involves the heroes saving a major character from a space-mobster that had only been alluded to in previous movies. That was the first time we saw major bad guys in Star Wars other than the Empire. We also got a new locations, new vehcles, new action set pieces. We also got to see how Luke had evolved and we saw the final confrontation between him and Vader, which brought things to an end.
Hangover 2 - I actually didn't like it since it seemed to repeat a lot of the same jokes.
Now, when it comes to TFA, I wouldn't have minded the retread as much if it did something new. Finn initially really excited me because I think there is a lot of potential in seeing things form a Stormtrooper's perspective, but he went to the heroes in the first 15 minutes and never looked back. I was sure there would be some conflict in him, but we got nothing. It was a waste. The other characters were just New Luke, New Vader, New Palpatine, etc. This is why I liked TLJ more as it tried something different at least.
To further elaborate my point, here's the premise of Pulp Fiction 2 as it relates to Force Awakens.
We start with two hitmen named Jack and Victor going to do a job. They talk about fast food, foot massages, and pop culture before going into a hotel room to get something from some mooks. They kill all the guys while Jack makes the same Bible quote as Jules. Oh, and Jack is unsure of what a hitman is and has never held a gun before, but he's a sharp shooter and knows the ins and outs of the mafia despite this being his first day. He's just that good and everyone tells him he's good. As it turns out, they're there to take a briefcase that contains the soul of Jules. Jack mentions the previous briefcase had Marsellus Wallace's soul, taking away a lot of charm and mystique form the original. As it turns out, Jules is now a major crime lord despite his major arc from the previous movie involved him quitting the business. We cut to a different story involving Jules trying to get a fighter to throw a fight except it's a MMA fighter and not a boxer. The guy agrees, but then he double crosses Jules and beats his opponent in the ring before running away. Jack is sent to go after him and immediately finds him. The two bond and the fighter says he's okay with being killed by Jack because he likes him so gosh darn much. Then Victor takes Jules' wife on a date, she overdoses, and he has to save her. Oh, and Jules randomly dies for whatever reason.
You should know by now that frog doesn't do logic. It doesn't matter that none of these points were discussed in the 35-40 years before these latest SW films. Magically now it matters since it conveniently aids the mental gymnastics required by sjw-types to justify the bs that is tfa/tlj etc.
It doesn't change anything about the newest films anyway.
Also always call rey a 'Mary Sue' just to trigger a response. It's not a joke because she actually is one and KK admitted that women wrote her to be this way as a point of self-reflection.
T2 is the best example ever, because it proves that a completely unoriginal concept, even as a direct sequel that copies the first, can escape any criticism regarding originality.
Yes, of course Sarah had to evolve and John had to be a kid now since he was in her belly at the end of T1, those things are necessary.
However, switching up the terminators and having Arnold being a good guy is more of a gimmick than anything else.
That switch simply obscures one of the unoriginal elements, because Arnold's terminator simply replaced the Kyle Reese character. Sarah also took on some of Reese's traits, and John became the new "naive young Sarah being hunted by a robot" you see in the original... And like Sarah in part 1, he is not only the target, he is the main character.
Then again, if T1 and then T2 came out today, the noisy nerd culture might just bash T2 for being a remake of the first... We're living in a time when that culture seems to be desperately expecting and searching for some vaguely defined mind-blowing experience that will finally "satisfy." It's merely a fantasy, of course.
I don't know what to tell you other than, with Force Awakens, I wasn't expecting anything "new," so to speak. I was expecting a new Star Wars movie that played pretty safe and was a fun adventure, and that's what I got. I expected similar things with Last Jedi, and it had some good parts, but it was not a fun adventure and felt far too much like an amateur, slapped-together collection of ideas with very little focus.
Also, if you think Last Jedi was more original than Force Awakens, you're in for a rude awakening. I predicted VERY successfully that it would not be bashed for being a "remake" the way TFA was, simply because it lacked something basic and noticeable like a Death-Star-shaped weapon.
I will find my topic where I demonstrate that TLJ is basically a "remake" of ESB, but criticism culture ignores subtlety that lacks a big "Death Star like weapon" as a landmark.
Here you go.... Luckily I don't make a ton of topics, so it didn't take long to find this, even though I did quite a few topics criticizing elements of The Last Jedi, particularly criticizing Rian Johnson and marveling at the fact that I knew more about filmmaking techniques and storytelling standards than he did (largely taken from interviews where he reveals his weak points).
So, this is my TLJ = ESB topic:
https://moviechat.org/tt2527336/Star-Wars-Episode-VIII-The-Last-Jedi/5a3815730abcfd00148fc938/Christmas-gift-for-the-remake-critics
Feel free to bump it ;)
Make sure you read the replies in my TLJ/ESB topic, too, because there are other direct comparisons from myself and others that are not included in the main list.
shareAnd a similar video to the one above, this time with A New Hope. We have Flash Gordon there as well as Hidden Fortress, Metropolis, and several others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx15aXjcDZg
A New Hope was the kid-friendly, sci-fi, Pulp Fiction of the 70's. Ironically, Lucas was influenced by the pulp fiction genre when he created Indiana Jones as well.
At this point almost nothing sounds good in the Star Wars universe. Solo definitely wasn't.
Have a short review of this movie if anyone is interested- https://youtu.be/SVdMCNhBstI