MovieChat Forums > Black Widow (2021) Discussion > I’ve read that it’s an anti-man wokefest

I’ve read that it’s an anti-man wokefest


For anyone who has seen it, is it?

Disappointing if true.

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Big fuckin surprise.

Everything now is one huge, fascistic PC brainwashing campaign.

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Yeah. It's gotten to the point that I'm surprised when I see something that didn't seem to have a social agenda.

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It must be tiring being you.

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Well it must not be tiring being you since being an asswipe takes almost no effort.

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I think feminism or boarder equal opportunity movement is initiated by corporations to increase potential labor pool, because businesses don't discriminate gender or race, they are all just workers. Modern union movements got on it as well because unions want to increase their potential members. So basically everyone counts politically is behind this and their message is that everyone should get out there to be a corporate slave and that is called freedom (to choose what kind of worker you want to be).

I think that is why the message has been pushed so hard from every possible direction.

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Storytelling is an incredibly powerful tool that has been around for a very long time. Crappy hollywood leftists have realized they can pump their terrible political propaganda and still turn a profit on movies so they do it. At this point they'd consider it a waste not to put their horrible talking points in a movie. The only option for us is to stop supporting their movies in any way.

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The third act definitely has those vibes, but keeps plausible deniability.

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"plausible deniability"? How? Entire movie is about a father does not care about his daughters, an evil man exploits women (and only women) and beating defenseless women. All the heros are women, even taskmaster gets to turned into a woman (that is really offensive to comic fans).

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Taskmaster's a woman??

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Surprised?

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I hadn't heard.

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Yes. Damn it.

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Taskmistress

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Plausible deniability means that the film doesn't explicitly hate on men at any point, ie. people can argue that the villain was evil and just happened to be a man, and his victims just happened to be women because comics and the Black Widow project.
It was obviously very, very odd that this guy had a thing for little girls. They changed the sex of Taskmaster, but she ended up being a victim too. Anyway, I hated everything about the third act, from the stupid pheromone thing, to the scenes were Natasha was clearly CGI (they could have done this with a stunt woman, why didn't they?) to the clear man-hating undertones.

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I think you missed the symbolism. All of the women are of power, action and wisdom. All of the men are stupid, evil, weak or in support or domestic roles.

Not explicitly saying it is not deniability.

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Don't really agree. Melina's character was clearly flawed. She was the one who invented the mind control device, and she was pretty mean to a pig. She also betrayed Natasha before redeeming herself. Natasha points out that she is a coward. Yelena is shown to be quite vulnerable and is at heart still Natasha's lost little sister. Alexei is clearly flawed, but in the end shows that he did genuinely love his daughters. Natasha is the protagonist, so you should expect her to be shown in a good light. Nothing conspicuous there.

On the other hand the one truly good male character was a slightly effeminate sounding "diverse" man. So there is that. The Black Widow's themselves were strangely diverse, the implication seemed to be that they were being abducted from poor countries or something. Still stuck out like a sore thumb. Dreykov was clearly the patriarchy incarnate.

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Melina's character was clearly flawed. She was the one who invented the mind control device, and she was pretty mean to a pig. She also betrayed Natasha before redeeming herself. Natasha points out that she is a coward.

No, that is not what I was talking about. I am not talking about good or bad, or character flaws any human have. That is not the point. She is very capable, that is the point, she masterminded the whole plan. She could reach her potential as long as she turned against patriarchy (represented by Dreykov). That is the underlying message.

Alexei is clearly flawed, but in the end shows that he did genuinely love his daughters.

Not really. He did not care the body of his daughters were mutilated and reproductive organs removed. He cared about his vanity. In the end he finally behaving like a normal person, he wanted to let his daughter know, to take credit. He was vain, clumsy and stupid, of very little use, that was the underlying message. That would be the impression people get in the end.

Dreykov was clearly the patriarchy incarnate.

That was my immediate reaction as well. Weak, useless, not all that smart, nothing without the women around him. I think that is the message.

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"the one truly good male character was a slightly effeminate sounding "diverse" man."

So, it was an anti-male film.

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*anti white male

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'Preciate the spoilers in a thread where the OP clearly hasn't seen the shit.

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I think the general advice here is don't watch it, not in theaters anyway, not worth it.

Watch it only for the sense of introduction of new black widow, her sister. So you know what is going on with the new face in other Marvel movies and TV series.

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"she was pretty mean to a pig"

A pig she named after her husband.

It didn't ruin the movie, but there is an obvious undercurrent of misandry throughout.

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What you call "effeminate sounding", us Europeans call "British". BBC English sounds like that.

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How do you know he has a BBC? Not all black men do you know.

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Ha! He was black now that you remind me.

But for those missing the point here; I meant the British television company.

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Saw it and I'd call a spade a spade in a minute but given the source material I'd say no. Black Widow's origin is based around a female super-spy program so there's really no way of getting around a predominantly female cast. There wasn't a point where I felt Red Guardian, her only male supporting cast member was ever emasculated either. The one thing I did kinda roll my eyes over was them going out of their way to ensure that there was a majority of female spies of color in all of the close ups and scenes in which they were in. With all that being said I'd still wouldn't recommend seeing this.

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Thanks for the info. Since you didn't think it was especially woke, but also wouldn't recommend it, did you just not think it was a fun movie?

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One thing about this movie is that it doesn't move the plot forward aside from the end-credits considering it takes place directly after Civil War and pertains to a subset of the MCU you'd probably never care about anyway. As far as the movie being, "fun", no, I didn't really think it was compared to the other Marvel movies I've seen. I've always found Johansson and her character to be extremely flat. Since BW has no real, "super powers", it's a lot of basic hand-to-hand combat with a few well timed explosions here and there. The story was sort of a bore too and dialogue was drawn out at times.

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The movie was a sequence of trailer bait and only watchable because most actors were likeable.

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This is quite true. The four main actors were all great. The characters themselves were all quite well written to be fair. It's just that the story they were placed in was kind of boring and the villain was useless.

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I have to disagree that Red Guardian wasn't emasculated. The character was pretty much comic relief, didn't really do much in the climax of the movie. Some touching moments, but really got no respect from any of the female players in the film. His ex-spy wife named a pig after him.

But if you can ignore all the woke claptrap (it requires focus and will power not to get riled up about it) I do recommend the movie. Good popcorn fun that should be taken for what it is.

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Yeah but on the other hand you've gotta consider his heroic feats in the very beginning of the movie. As far as him being comic relief you could also chalk that up to the Disney cheese factor which has plagued these movies since the Marvel acquisition. TBH I didn't see anyone do anything special in this movie. They all seemed pretty nerfed and succeeded only when the plot allowed them to.

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He was a failure at almost every point. He said himself:"I am just the muscle, your mother is the brain". He was even not good at his prison escape, has to be saved by black widow.

If that is not emasculated then I think you are taking the word more literally.

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He actually did quite well during the prison escape, it was Natasha's plan that was rubbish.

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No, he alarmed the guards and that was the problem. He could have just left, but he decided to beat up the mailmen. He could have used his super strength and opened the doors silently, but he smashed the doors open.

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I think you misread my post, I was arguing that Red Guardian was emasculated.

One of the problems in the plot, it had all the Black Widow's being mind controlled.

So in the climax of the movie, that fact pretty much put his actions in handcuffs. Because you would have a middle-aged super hero guy beating up on mind-controlled young orphan women assassins.

I thought at one point the Red Guardian would help kill and take revenge on the head villian, but no real action redemption occurred.

Essentially this is a story for girls who have father abandonment issues.... unfortunately.. it helps them paint most men as bad people.



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Sorry, my bad. I've got to read more carefully.

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If they clearly stated he was kidnappning women from all over the world, it would be weird if they weren't very diverse, wouldn't it?

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[deleted]

I started to watch that but I got the feeling quickly that he was going to spoil the movie so I clicked off it.

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You'll miss nothing from watching the trailers or his review. And it's spot on. Frankly, Black Widow wasn't worth the bandwidth and certainly not the time.

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That's a disappointment. I thought the trailers looked good and I like ScarJo.

Oh well. RIP the MCU. It was fun while it lasted.

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THAT GUY IS AN IRRITATING MORON.

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If you get past the schtick and really listen to him you'll find he has a very refined sense of character and plot.

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Is that one of those right wing youtuber with clickbaity thumbnails about feminist and red arrows?

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Yeah, pretty much the wahmen are the best, males are not in or are weak and/or hilarious ...

But I can't say it bothered me ...

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I honestly didn't get that vibe at all. The main antagonist is a guy, but it didn't come off as anti-man at all. Not even close to the degree that Captain Marvel did.

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So ScarJo never beats a bunch of guys up with No Doubt's "I'm Just a Girl" playing in the background?

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If a scene like that is all it takes to ruin a movie for you then I’m sorry to say you’re pretty much an idiot.

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Hey bro, chill with the ad hominem attacks.

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Blame the viewer for not liking the stupid film makers stupid film. Nice.

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Almost everyone she fights is a woman, actually.

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Shhh, you're ruining their narrative ;)

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Women who were being mind controlled by a man. They were painted in a sympathetic light as victims from the get go. We see Yelena killing a woman before being freed from her mind control and lamenting what she has done. We see a Widow literally say "I don't want to do this" before killing herself. Could it have been made any more obvious? Yet you still missed this?
We are supposed to think Taskmaster is a man. As soon as she is revealed as a woman, we immediately understand that she is a victim.
The only female character who was shown to be even morally ambiguous was Melina, who clearly redeemed herself by the end.

The one character that was portrayed as purely evil, without even so much of a hint of an explanation as to what made him who he was, other than being an insecure narcissist who was trying to impress Natasha....or something....that was a man.

This must have been glaringly obvious to anyone watching the movie. So your comment seems deliberately dishonest.

I should add that this was a clear story telling decision that made the movie more boring and was likely motivated by feminist politics. The director stated that in the first version of the script Yelena was much more adversarial to Natasha, but she wanted to show that women help each other....or something along those lines.

It's very likely that the decision to make the Black Widows mind controlled drones instead of free agents who had been corrupted by their indoctrination was a similar kind of decision. And HOW it hurt the movie.

Natasha herself was never mind controlled, the whole thing was that she was trying to find redemption for the terrible things she had done. We understood that in some ways she had little choice as she was taken when she was as young as 6 (this was revealed in the Bruce Banner scene in the Avengers). At some point she made the decision to break free and go down a different path. This was what made her interesting. The fact that Bucky was mind controlled as the Winter Soldier makes that character a lot less interesting than he could have been. It was always straining the credulity of the Civil War plot that he would be blamed by Tony for his parent's death, but that was kind of relying on Tony's hot headed selfish personality.

But now we have a bunch of Widows who are basically portrayed as being completely innocent victims with no agency. Imagine if Natasha and Yelena had been on opposite sides, not because of mind control, but because Yelena had not yet been redeemed? Imagine if she actually had to fight againt Widows who were acting of their own free will? Nope, instead Yelena and Natasha fight for no compelling reason before making up. We get some boring Mcguffin mind anti-mind control gas that wraps up the story in a nice boring bow.

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I didn’t mind the movie. The movie wasn’t really antimen. I just didn’t like how they did taskmaster character.

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There is this one scene where Yelena has to pass a security guard, a tall guy wearing a helmet and armor and all. She simply slides in, barely touches him and lifts his leg or something and the guy is knocked out like forever, like he's a stickman.

In Ironman 2, BW takes out Hammer's security guards during the hallway fight, same logic, except I watched that movie because Ironman. Now we have a whole movie with little women with no superpowers beating up men like it's nothing. The MCU reached CW level ridiculousness.

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Now THIS is a silly argument. They are superheroes after all. Do you complain when the Punisher single handedly kills 10 men with guns? That is equally ludicrous. In any Schwarzenegger or Stallone movie the same thing happens, but you enjoy it as fantasy. It's not supposed to be realistic. How does iron Man in his one Iron Man suit kill dozens of aliens that should be way more technologically advanced than any earth technology? etc. etc. etc. You are cherry picking to the extreme.

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The point is with guns. Even the punisher could not have beaten up 10 men with bare hands and he was an elite soldier.

Schwarzenegger & 007 movies etc. did not mean to be realistic. This movie at least was trying to have realistic combat.

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"The point is with guns. Even the punisher could not have beaten up 10 men with bare hands and he was an elite soldier."

Lol. You have clearly not watched any of the Netflix series.

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I actually did. Though just once, it was OK, but slow at times.

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Did you forget the scene where The Punisher single-handedly kills about 10 men when he is in prison?

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I will have to re-watch. Do you know which episode?

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You are talking about dare devil series, right?

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my bad, it was only 8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2M5ObsKw4Y

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Thank you. But as you can see he did not use bare hands, he used a weapon. It was a broken stick with a sharp end acted as a knife.

That was my point. I had a whole post below talking about that.

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You forgot some major points:

1) Frank got the broken stick after it was stabbed through his arm. That sort of injury should have ended things one way or another.

2) He breaks a man’s neck by flexing bicep which is impossible.

3) Punisher stops one guy from stabbing him by punching him in the nose. There would have been no realistic way of stopping the momentum if the guy’s arm but the guy stops anyway.

4) Frank kicks a guy’s shin from a laying position. Somehow, it’s enough force to make the guy flop face-first into his weapon.

None of these shows or movies are realistic.

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No, you need to watch it again. The stick stabbed him (not through) is another one, after he got his first stick. So you are wrong about that.

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Nope, he started off with one stick, then got stabbed, pulled that one out, and started using it. Besides that, as I mentioned, that sort of injury would have ended the fight right then and there. I noticed you ignored that rest if my points too.

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I think I have to disagree. It may or may not end the fight. It is questionable. Unless you are a doctor and that is your professional opinion, otherwise that is not a sure thing, we will just have to agree to disagree.

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It has to end the fight. There are major veins running up and down the arm, which means a massive wound through the arm could very likely make him bleed out, especially if he yanks the thing out. If by some miracle, no veins were hit, the muscles in his forearm should be nice and severed now, which means he should not be able to make a fist or hold a weapon. That’s before we get to the pain factor, which should be enough to make him pass out, go into shock, or just flop around on the ground screaming. Either way, the fight’s over.

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It depends on how deep the wound is, which is hard to say. It might mot be that deep. Anyway your conclusion is not very conclusive to me. Like I said unless you are a doctor you are in no position to make that assessment.

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We can see how far it went in by watching the clip. The fight scene was simply not realistic, which is very common for action movies and shows.

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here he is beating up 4 men who are clearly physically much larger than him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07qIV0VDMI

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Body builders are not fighters. They tends to be slow, they don't know how to throw a punch, no match to a trained fighter.

If you watch UFC you will notice, most of them do not have the muscles of body builder.

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youve got every excuse under the sun why the punisher can do this stuff
"oh he had a little stick"
"oh body builders arnt fighters ..."

The point Alienzen made still stands - in simple terms - Men do unbelievable shit on screen and no one blinks an eyelid. A woman does it and you all start whining.

If you watch UFC you will notice, most of them do not have the muscles of body builder.
There you got then - by your own admission , a smaller well trained fighter can win - eg a woman

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I already went through all that with @alienzen you can continue to read and all will be explained.

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yeah i saw, iskimmed , i TLDR'd

Like I said , you arguing the minutae and the ins and outs of any given example is pointless.
MEN do stupid shit onscreen all the time.

Those Tony stark clips look like a good example , not that we need examples.
Arguing about the ins and outs of the punisher?
If that was real life the guy would be dead straight away.
MEN fighting on screen is as stupidly exagerrated as all the other movie tropes like exploding fuel tanks and guns that dont need reloading.

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Like I went through with @alienzen before some movies take themselves seriously, some do not.

Look, I don't like to keep repeating myself. So either read through what I already wrote or I will just ignore you.

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Well , i read half of it before my eyes glazed over with the tediousness of your reposnses , but it looks to me like Alienzen P0wnz you every step of the way.

some of my favorite responses of his are:

"All equally realistic reasons for him to be able to take on 10 men simultaneously in physical combat at Natasha being a trained assassin is a realistic reason for her to be able to beat up lots of men"

YOU: "I think the Marvel movies and TV shows want realism,"
hahahahah funniest thing i ever heard

Aliens usual cool composed , and realistic reponse:
"The MCU has at no point ever had Jason Bourne style realism, and never attempts to."

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In the end @alienzen agreed with me. Well, at least she has no objections to what I said. You should too, because clearly you don't have an argument against what I said either.

Look, I think the difference between you and @alienzen is that she is a woman, you are a pissed off feminist or SJW. She speaks things of substance, yours are just emotions. And you clearly don't have much respect towards others. That is why I have patience with her, but not with you.

To be honest I think it is pointless to have a discussion with you, it won't go anywhere but mutual insults, you are clearly going down that road. I think all your discussions probably went down that road, I doubt you ever had a real conversation about topics like this.

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Second

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Daredevil beating up 6 men bare handed (one of them has a gun)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66feInucFY

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Again he USED a weapon. You can see a pattern here, right?

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he SOMETIMES uses weapons, sometimes doesn't. The other guys are using weapons too. Somehow using objects as weapons allows Frank Castle to simultaneously beat up 4 MUCH larger men simultaneously? reach harder, lol.

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I guess you are not good at this. It was dark and he used the narrow hallway to make sure he is not fighting all of them at once. He is a very good tactician and clearly experienced fighting more than one.

And we are not talking about trained soldiers, just some low level criminals.

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All equally realistic reasons for him to be able to take on 10 men simultaneously in physical combat at Natasha being a trained assassin is a realistic reason for her to be able to beat up lots of men, or say, fight against invading aliens, or Tony Stark being a genius allowing him to build a robotic suit in a cave to defeat a horde of terrorists, or Bruce Banner being exposed to gamma rays turning him into a giant invincible green Hulk. I could go on. I doubt it will change your obscene determination to cherry pick.

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Again Natasha does not have super powers.

Daredevil and Natasha are both trained fighters, but you can see the difference in their fights. You watched what happens. Dare devil took a lot of hits, Natasha did not, not from men at least.

It is embarrassing to compare these 2.

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Look at how "unrealistic" this fight is. Bruce lee beating up dozens of men effortlessly using only the power of Kung Fu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8NAENVIej4

Yeah, the Daredevil and Punisher series are much more gritty than the MCU moves. This is a difference in style between the Netflix series and the MCU movies. But you are totally changing your argument now. Is it about the realism, or not?

Normal people doing superhuman feats in superhero movies is FUN.

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Again, he used a weapon. I think Nunchucks are banned thanks to his movies.

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He picks up a weapon 2 minutes into the scene after beating up dozens of men bare handed without taking a scratch. You are being very silly.

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Yes, but for some reason they come at him one or two at a time. Not all at once.

And it is a kongfu movie, did not mean to be that realistic. The punching sound effect should have tipped you off.

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I think we are comparing fightings of Marvel movies, that should be on the same standard. Why do you bring in old Kongfu movies in the first place?

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Right, so the only comparison I am allowed to make is with another MCU movie, which with the exception of Black Widow exclusively feature characters with either superpowers or super technology? Hmmm....that's gonna be a tough call. The only other comparable character is Hawkeye, but he uses a "weapon", ie a bow and arrow. So you find it totally fine that he is able to take on an army of technologically superior aliens or robots with a bow and arrow, but a girl beating up grown men is just too much for you to take. OK, whatever.

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It is not about winning or losing the argument. I think you should realize there is a limit to martial arts.

With bare hands even a martial art master can maybe fight 10 men max. There is a saying in fighting as sport that if body weight difference is more 30 kg, skills won't matter. That is why women can't win against men, that is why kids can't beat grown up. The difference is mainly in the body weight. That is why in fighting sports there is weight class.

Using a weapon is a different story, even as simple as a knife. Size of body no longer matters, the only thing matters is the skills. That is when a superior fighter really shines.

With a knife dipped in poison, even a child can kill a grown man.

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You are flipping back to a realism argument again. No one is claiming that any of this is realistic. I showed you a scene of Dare Devil beating up 3 men without any weapons, but apparently because he took some knocks that is OK. But one guy against 3 would lose every single time, no matter what. The difference in body weight in that case is about 160kg. And again, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that Hawkeye kills several advanced alien soldiers with a BOW AND ARROW. Lol. And what concerns you in all of this is that a woman can beat up men. I see.

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No, it is about realism in movies, that is what we are talking about here. You either have a 007 style unrealistic movies, or you have Jason Bourne style more realistic fighting. In other words either the movie takes itself seriously or it doesn't.

I think the Marvel movies and TV shows want realism, and what we are talking about here is whether it is convincing.

Like Sheldon said in big bang theories:"Let's assume superman can fly".

If one person can't beat 3 then what is the point of all the martial arts?

Those bow and arrows have bombs on them, also bow and arrows have killed countless people in history. So it is not unrealistic. The only thing unrealistic is the type of arrows in his quiver, he always has the right ones, now that is a bit unrealistic.

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The MCU has at no point ever had Jason Bourne style realism, and never attempts to. The important thing is internal consistency. I accept that ordinary people are able to do extraordinary things in the MCU. Natasha is an Avenger, which means she is essentially a superhero, despite not technically having any superpowers. If she can fight against the Chitauri, she can beat up ordinary men. Because she is a superhero.
Has it ever occurred to you that Tony Stark's body should be crushed to a pulp when he accelerates in his Iron Man suit? How does steve's shield apparently defy the laws of phyiscs? Because it is Captain America's shield and that's what it does. Natasha is a super spy, so she can do stuff that ordinary people can't do. That's enough.

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As you probably realized I am an engineering type of person (and a nerd), so I can actually answer that.

A pilot of modern fighter aircraft can take 9G maximum, that is 9 times of earth gravity, beyond that blood will become so heavy it can't reach brain and pilots will black out. Of course not everyone can take that, so ideal pilot is short and stocky, the distance between heart to brain is an important measurement.

There are many problems with Iron Man suit, like how radar, sensors and weapons could all fit into such a small package, but let's just assume he is a super genius and that is all possible.

His testing methods are also stupid, if we test aircraft like that 99% of aerial engineers will die. Again we assume he is a super genius.

But his flight is not so much a big problem, he did not really do high G maneuvers, or aerial dog fight. Also he has AI to take over if there is too much a problem. Body crushing? I don't think his flight ever reached that level.

In Marvel world there are many fictional super metals, Capt's shield is made of "proto-adamantium, a never-duplicated combination of vibranium, steel alloy, and an unknown catalyst." Basically an alloy of a number of super metals, one of kind. So we will just have to accept that, and with his super soldier strength he can wield it.

Natasha is not really a hero per se, she is an SHIELD agent. As you said she is a super spy. Her main ability is manipulation, of men primarily. She is Hulk's handler and control him somewhat.

But she is a normal human, even in comics she had bio enhancements to withstand aging, poison, etc. but not super strength or anything like that. In comics she is a gifted hypnotist, so her main ability was never on the physical side.

Anyway, that is why I think adding knife, poison darts, small weapons, etc. in her fights will be more realistic.

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One question though:

> But his flight is not so much a big problem, he did not really do high G maneuvers, or aerial dog fight. Also he has AI to take over if there is too much a problem. Body crushing? I think his flight never reached that level.

You sure about that? What about in The Avengers, when he has to restart those rotors of the Hellocarrier? Also, he bumps into walls steadily during the Chitauri fight. Wouldn't a sudden shift in velocity like that turn him into ketchup?

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In Mach 2 supersonic flights, like in modern fighter aircraft dog fights, yes, that would be a problem, he would likely blackout.

But his speed was nowhere near that. It is more like sharp turns in a high speed car, you are going to be fine if you wear tight seat belt. Iron man suit is a lot better than seat belt.

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Well, as a kid I remember watching this James Bond scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbLei5GYaYM

Now seeing Ironman in that engine, accelerating like that.. but I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking.

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speed doesn't matter, it is acceleration.

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That is for astronaut training, rockets or space shuttles needs to reach Mach 25, that is 25 times of speed of sound, to go into orbit. That is why acceleration is an issue.

Iron man suit can't reach that speed, it can barely reach Mach 1, that is total different level of acceleration.

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But what about deceleration, when he suddenly comes to a halt? Wouldn't that turn him into ketchup?

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If he is in very high speed, without a decent deceleration process, even Mach 1, yes, that will cause some problems.

But first of all in the final scenes of avengers, when he fought Chitauri army, he was no where near that speed, you can visually estimate his speed was close to high speed street racing, that is one third of Mach 1, that speed is quite safe for most people, as long as it is not a sudden stop, like crushing.

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It has nothing to do with speed. Obviously to reach high speeds in a reasonable amount of time you have to have a high acceleration. If someone punches you in the face, their fist is not travelling at the speed of sound, but it knocks you out because of the change in momentum as it makes contact with your face. If you are travelling in a circular motion with a constant radius, then the centripetal acceleration is proportional to your tangential velocity, but it is the acceleration that is making you pass out, not the speed. If you are travelling at 50 mph and reverse your velocity in the space of half a second, you will be dead because of the acceleration (which would be enough to accelerate you from being at rest to the speed of sound in about 3 seconds)

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As long as it is not crushing. Modern flight control has built in deceleration process and safe limits.

So as long as it is not crushing, as long as the suit is designed for normal human, it should fly within safety limits.

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It doesn't matter what safety systems you have, you cant get around Newton's second law:

f=ma

here is Tony Stark getting turned to ketchup

https://youtu.be/hhRkNABtu9k?t=152

ketchupped again

https://youtu.be/hhRkNABtu9k?t=248

totally spaghettified

https://youtu.be/hhRkNABtu9k?t=362

Tony and Rhodey omelette

https://youtu.be/hhRkNABtu9k?t=377

zero to a hundred in a microsecond? yep, definitely dead

https://youtu.be/hhRkNABtu9k?t=410

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OK, let's do this one by one:
1) That is OK. It looked like a sudden stop but it is not, it is just a slow down. It is like parachuting, similar effect.

2) That one I kind of agree. That should have been a calculated landing, and landing speed looks like acceptable, no more than jumping down from a platform. But deceleration distance is very questionable.

3) Yes, that is questionable as well. There is visible deceleration but has to be sudden to fool the drones. Could still be possible but that looks a lot faster than fast cars, so, possible, but questionable.

4) You got that one totally right. They should not have survived that. Capt maybe but not 2 ordinary humans, no way to live through that.

5) That one was fine. I think you got overexcited.

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> Natasha is an Avenger, which means she is essentially a superhero, despite not technically having any superpowers. If she can fight against the Chitauri, she can beat up ordinary men. Because she is a superhero.

Again, you're twisting your arguments to your needs. Natasha is a hero, not a superhero, because she doesn't have superpowers.

When did she fight a Chitauri in one on one combat? There's one scene where she used her gadgets, zapped that one Chitaury in The Avengers.

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yeah, right after she grabbed on to a ship traveling about 100mph which would have ripped her arm off.

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So you're suddenly saying Natasha's actions are unbelievable now? Twisting your arguments again? How consistent of you.

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Yes I'm SUDDENLY saying that, lol.

"Because she is a superhero.
Has it ever occurred to you that Tony Stark's body should be crushed to a pulp when he accelerates in his Iron Man suit? How does steve's shield apparently defy the laws of phyiscs? Because it is Captain America's shield and that's what it does. Natasha is a super spy, so she can do stuff that ordinary people can't do. That's enough."

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Yes, that was unrealistic. Also once she killed everyone onboard how would she land without knowing how to pilot an alien aircraft? There is no guarantee there is a building top to jump to. She could have just crushed into a building.

So that was stupid. There are parts going too far I think that was one of them.

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In order for her to be an Avenger and not look completely useless next to the other characters, she has to be able to do incredible things. It's supposed to be FUN not realistic.

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Daredevil beating up (I lost count) men bare handed. If you want to be REALLY pedantic he is using a chain as a weapon SOME of the time, others he is just using his fists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaXXoTfPqUo

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Again. He hits the lights first. That is not a fair fight. And yes, the chain is a weapon, as you can see has so many uses.

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Daredevil beating up 3 mean using no weapons(at one point in the fight he does pick up a surgical knife to stab one in the leg, if you really want to reach that far)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d2Otrn1Ebc

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Again daredevil is a trained fighter, he is fighting some criminals, not trained agents.

It is kind of embarrassing he had so much trouble with these four.

It is embarrassing to compare him with black widow, who can beat twice as many trained agents or soldiers in a flash without so much a scratch on her.

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Thor beating up dozens of trained shield agents (without his powers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv9_T0OOKI4

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First of all, Thor is Asgardian, even without power of thunder he is not human.

Secondly, Thor is a warrior, his experience of fighting is longer than the longest human life. He is 1500 years old, most of that time he was fighting.

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None of which would allow him to do what we saw in that scene.

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Actually as I watched it, no, it is quite normal.

His style clearly different from human. He took hits like it is nothing. When he hit back it is different story.

His fighting style is more of a warrior. He never regarded any of the agents as threats.

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None of which would allow him to do what we saw in that scene.

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Are we watching the same clip? He brushed off those agents like they are nothing, more annoyance than threats, clearly his strength is far superior.

He took a hit on the face from a much bigger guy, do you see him even had a nose bleed?

He is not human, how hard it is to understand that?

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I have no problem female heroes beating men, but it needs to be realistic.

The moves needs to be fast, the hit points should be places like throat (Like Liam Neeson did in taken series, he always hits throats), neck, groin, etc. The weak points do not require a lot of force. Using of small knives (or brass knuckles with sharp edges) like the sister has done in the beginning of movie is what female fighters should have done when fighting with men.

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Also a small thing I have noticed, not a real problem of course but it is related to this topic.

When the sisters fought in the kitchen, neither had a weapon on them after the guns were dropped. The sister pull out a kitchen knife, black widow took a piece of stick like objects from furniture.

That is just something I don't really believe, I mean 2 trained agents on the run, neither had a knife on them.

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Yelena and BW are not superheroes.

> .. Punisher single handedly kills 10 men with guns? That is equally ludicrous.

In the one video you linked, he STABS them left and right, in the other, he beats their head with dumbbells and weights...??

> How does iron Man in his one Iron Man suit kill dozens of aliens that should be way more technologically advanced than any earth technology?

Those Chitauri were of organic nature (flesh and blood)!? Chitauri vs Ironman missile, missile wins.

...

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say!? There's no way Yelena could beat that guard the way we saw it in that scene.

Yelena hitting soldier straight into his face with all she got? That *could* knock him out.
Yelena hitting a trained soldier on his head with a dumbbell, would certainly knock him out.
Yelena making woosh and the guy falls over? Nope, sorry.

There's no point in arguing, fc already tried, you come up with stuff, from Stallone to Bruce Lee, to Thor, oh boy, an Asgardian vs humans, really?? Rewatch Cap vs Loki in Stuttgart.

Are you bored?

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In the scene the Punisher is sometimes using objects as weapons, and sometimes just punching. None of this makes the scene even remotely within the realm of plausible possibility. One guy against 8 men using any kind of hand held weapon gets overpowered and killed in about 3 seconds. In every scenario.

Tony Stark is supposed to be able to single handedly build weapons more powerful than an entire advanced alien civilization. This doesn't strike you as odd.

Hawkeye defeats people with guns using a bow an arrow. That could happen.

Woman beats up a man who is a bit stronger than her. ABSURD.

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You're twisting your arguments left and right: Punisher uses dumbbells and weights to their heads! 8 guys, yes, but they attack one by one. You knock one out, you have 7 to go. And he knocks them out and stabs them pretty quickly.

Just rewatched the Daredevil hallway fight. It's not perfect either, I'm not claiming that it's THE realistic fight scene ever, it's not. Clearly, he gets tired, and suddenly does jump kicks over and over, a.s.o.

That one guy having a gun? Again you're twisting your arguments; that guy never got the chance to shoot at Daredevil!

Natasha doing the same in IM2, it gets a pass, too. She's supposed to be agile and all. Whatever.

Since when did this turn into a "realism in the MCU" debate? What does Tony Stark's (or Suri's) intelligence have to do with what we're talking about here? Or Bruce Banner and radiation?

> Hawkeye defeats people with guns using a bow an arrow.

Sorry to say, your arguments are ridiculous. Yelena shooting arrows at aliens, aliens die. Would anybody have a problem with that? I certainly would not.

Again, Yelena making woosh, and the guy gets knocked out, because..? It's getting ridiculous. THE SAME WOULD BE EQUALLY RIDICULOUS IF THE PUNISHER, DAREDEVIL, OR BRUCE LEE WOULD DO IT!!

I never bought Maria Hill's punch either (the one in Winter Soldier in the tank, when she reveals herself). The soldier had a helmet on ffs.

edit: rewatched the Winter Soldier scene, Hill zapped him first then kicked him unconscious. Way more believable than Yeleans woosh.

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Sorry, are we arguing about one 2 second scene with Yelena, or about Black Widow beating up men?

"In Ironman 2, BW takes out Hammer's security guards during the hallway fight, same logic, except I watched that movie because Ironman. Now we have a whole movie with little women with no superpowers beating up men like it's nothing. The MCU reached CW level ridiculousness"

I haven't once mentioned Yelena. I see you are moving the goalposts and cherry picking again. Consistent of you.

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There's no point in arguing with you. You just go on and on, again, twisting everything to your needs. We just took a trip from Bruce Lee to Sylvester to Daredevil to Thor to.. and now we're back at the beginning?

Dude, if your gf left you, just let us know, we'd understand.

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I see I won the argument. Thanks for your cooperation.

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You beat me, congratulations!

"Never argue with a fool - They will drag you down to their level, Then beat you with experience!"

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