MovieChat Forums > The Americans (2013) Discussion > Philip and Elizabeth. Are you rooting fo...

Philip and Elizabeth. Are you rooting for them, against them or


neutral ?

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I'm rooting for them, but not for them to continue living their present lives. I hope they will contribute their considerable talents to a worthier cause than espionage.

I don't have any particular urge to see them caught and punished. They aren't sociopaths, and their lifestyle has already entailed punishment enough. The job is its own punishment.

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They aren't sociopaths

They are manipulative and conning
They don't care about the rights of others. They are seemingly likable, but at the same time they are violent people that see others as mere tools. They dominate and humiliate their victims.

THEY ARE THE VERY DEFINITION OF ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOR (sociopath is not a medical term). The fact that you don't dislike them tells me that you fell for them hook, line and sinker.

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Humiliate? Are we watching the same show?

They manipulate, yes - as part of their work. That isn't the same as being manipulative. Philip at a minimum definitely feels trapped in his life and they both demonstrate on many occasions that they detest what they feel they have to do. They have empathy. That is what I meant when I said they aren't sociopaths (and I really don't care whether that's a medical term - it is a widely understood one).

I think your analysis is way off, and the idea that I could "fall for them" is just laughable, since as the relatively omniscient viewer I get to see all their vulnerabilities. I'm not their mark. I don't even exist in their universe. You're being silly.

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They aren't sociopaths

They are manipulative and conning
They don't care about the rights of others. They are seemingly likable, but at the same time they are violent people that see others as mere tools. They dominate and humiliate their victims.

THEY ARE THE VERY DEFINITION OF ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOR (sociopath is not a medical term). The fact that you don't dislike them tells me that you fell for them hook, line and sinker.

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Im rooting for them. I'm not American so, while they have done some terrible stuff, I don't see them as being any worse than the spies of any country. Including the US.

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totally rooting FOR them! 😀

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I watched the first 2 seasons and about a third of season 3 but stopped b/c of how much I found myself despising both sides.

I couldn't root for the Russians b/c of the brainwashing I experienced by growing up in the 80's, and even if I didn't have an instinctive revulsion to all things Russian, the two spies are despicable enough on their own to dislike immensely.

Stan's character being written as an imbecile, so he wouldn't figure out his neighbors were the people he was looking for, got aggravating too. Not to mention his moronic affair with the pretty Russian embassy worker.

I really wanted to like this series too. I don't normally have any problem with a negative portrayal of the FBI or CIA, having read enough about both to know they were/are littered with people who'd do anything for career advancement, who were probably sociopaths, and/or were just stupid.

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One minute rooting the next against and so on. The show does very good in avoiding hating them at once even though all the horrible things they do. Same with Beema, Nina, Oleg. Everybody.


And I thought Bloodline had ambiguous characters.

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100% for them. 

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It's strange - they are cold blooded killers, who are ostensibly the "bad guys", but I still root for them. Mainly Philip. He seems to have much more of a conscience.

You have to remember - the US has spies who do the exact same thing, in other countries.

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the US has spies who do the exact same thing


The same? Philip & Elizabeth are kittens in comparison

Need I say more than Allende and the consequences: September 11, 1973 - March 11, 1990?

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Need I say more than Allende and the consequences: September 11, 1973 - March 11, 1990?

The US didn't oust Allende. His own people did after he ran the country into the ground with socialist policies. We've seen the same thing happen in country after country. Look at what's happening in Venezuela right now.

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Oh, okay

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Oh, okay

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Mainly Philip. He seems to have much more of a conscience.


Me, too. Philip almost from Day One showed us through looks on his face and actions that he long ago lost the big belief in the mission he may have arrived with in the '60s.

He's long shown us he would have been through with this life long before, but he's stuck in it and has not figured out a way out, short of defecting.

But even that has its risks. It's not like defectors were always believed--as James Jesus Angleton always thought each defector was a fake "dangle" as told in Sandy Grimes' book "Circle of Treason.

And Philip isn't in this alone--he has had a gung-ho Kool-aid drinking wife and two U.S. born kids to consider. We also don't know if he has a mother back in the USSR who could suffer retaliation if he defects (I can't recall if we ever knew she had died)--a system of threat that was always employed by the USSR when sending their agents overseas.

As the trapped person in this scenario--having to carry out more and more missions that are abhorrent to him, but he has to do them anyway, he is sympathetic to me. A guy stuck in a machine with no way out that isn't destructive to somebody he cares about.

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ABC news
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=82588&page=1

National security archive
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

The NSA summarises some of the information in the documents as follows:

- CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government

- National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973

I have to admire the (retrospective) openness of the US government and to admit to a large part in the toppling of a country's elected government
Yes, there was unrest because of shortages but it's clear that if the largest economy on Earth is trying to destabilise your economy it will be made unstable. It's also clear that the oligarchs in the Chilean military would not have acted if they had not had the (tacit) support from the USofA

What we see on 'The Americans' is child's play. Philip doesn't really get it. Elizabeth is fighting for her country's life. A country, incidentally, which was in the 1980s close to collapse

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From your own first source:

"The CIA admits prior knowledge of the plot that overthrew Allende three years later but denies direct involvement. The report says the agency had no idea that Allende would refuse safe passage with his palace under bombardment and apparently kill himself. He was found dead of gunshot wounds."

I should hope the CIA knew. That's its job. But knowing about something isn't the same as being the one doing it. The US had toyed with the idea of a coup, but decided against it. In fact the declassified documentary evidence confirms that the CIA wasn't involved in the coup.

The "National Security Archive" (which is an activist group, not an official government repository) always puts a leftist, sensationalist, anti-American spin on things. Of course the US opposed Allende. He was a Marxist **itbag. It also opposes Kim Jong Un, Hugo Chavez, and lots of other world leaders. Other governments often oppose the US government. Lots of people around the world openly criticize certain US politicians and join or fund efforts to defeat them. So what?

Here's a more informative article with greater context from the other side:

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=15648

As for allegedly "destabilizing" Chile's economy, an official or two spouting a grand phrase in a closed brain storming strategy session doesn't necessarily translate into reality. The US didn't take anywhere near the economic action that it did against...say Cuba, for example (countries have a perfect right to cease trading with another nation, btw), not to mention the assassination attempts against Castro (which unfortunately failed). No embargo was placed on Chile. Trade continued. In fact the US continued to give foreign aid and forgive Chilean debt during Allende's reign. Washington didn't even punish Chile when it nationalized (aka stole) American owned copper industry property there in 1971, which it would have had a perfect right to do.

You can't honestly blame the US for Allende running his own country into the ground the way socialism does every time it's tried.

Comparing the US basically just rooting against a socialist leader, mostly from the sidelines, with P and E murdering scores of innocent people and spying to advance the interests of one of the most oppressive totalitarian regimes in history is asinine. Heck, in real life the Soviet Union did far worse to the US than the US did to Allende's Chile. The USSR certainly wasn't giving America humanitarian aid or forgiving our debt. Neither was Chile for that matter. Chile was stealing American property, not the other way around.


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Comparing the US basically just rooting against a socialist leader


What next, you're going to say the US wasn't involved in Vietnam or Afghanistan either?

As to OP's question, I'm mostly rooting for Elizabeth and Phillip (I'm neither American nor Soviet/Russian btw, as disclaimer. Or Chilean or Vietnamese or Afghan, or from a NATO country or from a former USSR satellite state.) I do want something to happen to change the status quo by the end though. Maybe for them to be captured, maybe for them to have to flee back to Russia. Actually the latter would probably be more interesting. The USSR collapsed for good in 1991 and I doubt The Americans will span until that time, but things started rapidly changing already in 1985 with the election of Gorbachev and glasnost/perestroika. So it would be interesting to see how that affects Elizabeth, Phillip, everyone in the Rezidentura etc (although I fear they are cutting the latter off the show altogether, with Arkady and Oleg - who I probably root for the most out of any alive character, him and poor Martha - both heading back to Moscow.)


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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What next, you're going to say the US wasn't involved in Vietnam or Afghanistan either?

Let me get this straight. You're equating Chile with US involvement in Vietnam and Afghanistan? Wow.
As to OP's question, I'm mostly rooting for Elizabeth and Phillip (I'm neither American nor Soviet/Russian btw, as disclaimer. Or Chilean or Vietnamese or Afghan, or from a NATO country or from a former USSR satellite state.)

It doesn't sound like you care much about totalitarianism versus free democracy either, as the Cold War was an ideological struggle, and not just about nationalistic differences.

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Of course I'm not comparing them. I was just amused by your claim of the US simply "rooting for" a non-socialist leader. The CIA itself says they were involved in Chile and in over-throwing Allende, so I don't know why you'd deny it. I was just wondering how far this denial went, hence I asked you a (rhetorical and sarcastic) question on your thoughts re: Vietnam and Afghanistan. https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/#5

It doesn't sound like you care much about totalitarianism versus free democracy either, as the Cold War was an ideological struggle, and not just about nationalistic differences.


I know quite a bit about the Cold War, although I missed most of it due to not having been born. My grandma was born in the USSR as part of an "enemy of the state" minority before fleeing, so I'm in no way ignorant on the reality of Soviet life. But I don't agree that the US version of capitalism and lack of welfare state is the best way to ensure "freedom" of its people or the world at large either.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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Of course I'm not comparing them.

That's how your post came off.
I was just amused by your claim of the US simply "rooting for" a non-socialist leader. The CIA itself says they were involved in Chile and in over-throwing Allende, so I don't know why you'd deny it.

Wrong. You should read your own source more carefully. Here's the key segment:

"CIA did not instigate the coup that ended Allende’s government on 11 September 1973".

Keep in mind I was specifically addressing the notion that the US ousted Allende. It didn't. Your source just reinforces what I already laid out in detail long before you showed up. The US had toyed with the idea of a coup, because it understandably didn't want Chile to become another Cuba, but decided to abort those plans. The coup that ousted Allende came years later and was unrelated. The US did conduct "propaganda" operations, including spending $3 million to campaign against Allende's political efforts in the 1960s, as I already explained. Foreign interests have spent far more than that to propagandize against Trump today. It's amusing that you would place that kind of "intervention", which countries routinely do with one another, in the same sentence as "Vietnam" and "Afghanistan". And, of course, the Soviets invested resources in backing Allende. Heck, the US spent much more money in aid to Chile during Allende's reign for humanitarian reasons than it did in politically agitating against him.

As for Pinochet, whom the US did not place in power, here are some other key points from your source:

"In January 1974, CIA officers and assets were tasked to report on human rights violations by the Chilean government." (meaning they cared about such things)

"The CIA had liaison relationships in Chile with the primary purpose of securing assistance in gathering intelligence on external targets. The CIA offered these services assistance in internal organization and training to combat subversion and terrorism from abroad, not in combating internal opponents of the government. The CIA also used these relationships to admonish these services concerning human rights abuses in Chile. The policy community and CIA recognized that the relationships opened the CIA to possible identification with the liaison services’ internal operations involving human rights abuses but determined that the contact was necessary for CIA’s mission."

It doesn't sound like you care much about totalitarianism versus free democracy either, as the Cold War was an ideological struggle, and not just about nationalistic differences.

I know quite a bit about the Cold War, although I missed most of it due to not having been born. My grandma was born in the USSR as part of an "enemy of the state" minority before fleeing, so I'm in no way ignorant on the reality of Soviet life.

Ah, so you do have a personal, if second hand at best, connection to the Soviet Union. That's only interesting because your first reply made an unsolicited big deal about you not being from any NATO or Warsaw Pact country, as if that meant one had no stake in the free world's effort to stop totalitarian socialism from consuming the entire globe, which, make no mistake, it came damn close to doing, much closer than Hitler did to conquering the planet. Or as if one shouldn't care about the fate of billions of others even if one's own safety was somehow guaranteed.
But I don't agree that the US version of capitalism and lack of welfare state is the best way to ensure "freedom" of its people or the world at large either.

So you are a socialist leaning ideologue, as I figured. That bias is more relevant than your place of birth, and no doubt colors your view of history. Your attitude is extremely common among go with the flow style young people who didn't experience the Cold War and who have been exposed to too much anti-American propaganda. It's a shame that soft welfare state socialists, many of whom were ardently anti-Soviet during the Cold War, today can't separate their disdain for American culture and the USA's traditional free market system (it's not that free anymore anyway) from their historical judgment on geopolitical issues like the Cold War. Maybe even express some gratitude for the USA's herculean efforts and sacrifices during that several decade struggle.

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There are things between passively "rooting for" and being 100% responsible for something. For example, the US contributed to the rise of religious fundamentalism in the Middle-East by financing the Mujahideen, but I'd never say the US "founded ISIS" or something as stupidly simplistic as that.

Are you seriously saying I'm biased towards Russia rather than the US because Stalin killed or sent to Siberia some of my relatives? Yes, that makes all the sense in the world.  I'm from Finland (one of those "soft welfare socialist states" or whatever you called them) - Reporters Without Borders ranks us #1 in the world in freedom of press. I'm lucky to not have been subjected to much propaganda. If you know anything about Finland though, I can safely say we're not the biggest fans of the Soviet Union, and there's definitely tons of anti-Russian sentiment even in the mainstream media.

You're reaching, and need to check your own propaganda intake. Are you able to objectively look at the United States, or is American exceptionalism something you've heard your whole life about and just assume must be true? I'm not really criticizing you if it is, because all countries do that. My own country and all the rest of the Nordics rank very highly in everything (human development, happiness, education, lack of corruption, above-mentioned freedom of press blah blah blah) and the media will not let us forget that.

Also, why is it so important to you how other countries conduct their affairs? Live and let live. (Barring serious violations of human rights, of course.)


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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There are things between passively "rooting for" and being 100% responsible for something.

You added "passively". I said basically just rooting against a socialist leader, mostly from the sidelines, in the context of explicitly contrasting that with P&E murdering scores of people along with their other nefarious activities in the show to advance the interests of a totalitarian power. You completely ignored that part when you replied.
For example, the US contributed to the rise of religious fundamentalism in the Middle-East by financing the Mujahideen,but I'd never say the US "founded ISIS" or something as stupidly simplistic as that.

Even the first version you gave is simplistic and misleading, since most of the Afghan Mujahideen evolved into the Northern Alliance, with the Taliban really being formed later in the 1990s by young people who had been students in Pakistan madrassas when the war against the Soviets was raging. To the extent the the US and its allies contributed to the rise of Islamist jihadism (assuming that's what you meant by "religious fundamentalism", which in most cases isn't a problem and can even be a good thing), it wasn't by directly supporting anyone so much as by withdrawing and abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviets were driven out, leaving a vacuum, and showing no interest in exerting influence to shape the course of events from then on.

It would be more accurate to say that US support to the Soviet Union during WW2 led to that nation becoming a superpower and the consequential Cold War.
Are you seriously saying I'm biased towards Russia rather than the US because Stalin killed or sent to Siberia some of my relatives?

Obviously I said nothing of the sort. Go back and check.
I'm from Finland (one of those "soft welfare socialist states" or whatever you called them) - Reporters Without Borders ranks us #1 in the world in freedom of press. I'm lucky to not have been subjected to much propaganda.

 Such indices are fundamentally worthless because they don't actually relay any factual information, unless one knows the internal components. Obviously they're inherently subjectively constructed (chosen variables and weights), but designed to give the illusion of objectivity. They're almost always biased and exist to push some kind of agenda. That you would spout that without qualification as though it has some meaning by itself (as opposed to maybe some hard facts from the internals) illustrates why activist outfits and political organizations go to the trouble of constructing and pushing them. People tend to be fairly easy to manipulate.

I remember analyzing and mocking that particular "press freedom" index years ago, though I don't recall the specifics now, except that the reasons it had for downgrading the US were extremely stupid and hypocritically not applied to other countries. I am confident, however, that it doesn't measure "propaganda", especially as I used the term, which is ideologically slanted material that can come from private or public sources. In fact the press freedom index is at least partly propaganda, though sometimes such indices (like the HDI) are more useful for roughly showcasing differences between third and first world countries than precise comparisons between first world countries.

More significant is my utter lack of surprise that you're from one of those soft socialist welfare state nations. Did I call that or what?
My own country and all the rest of the Nordics rank very highly in everything (human development, happiness, education, lack of corruption, above-mentioned freedom of press blah blah blah) and the media will not let us forget that.

 I wrote the above before I even read this part. I've thoroughly debunked the HDI at IMDb (among other places) before. Those things are rigged to give the result you indicate. That's the type of propaganda I'm talking about. I'm glad you seem to be aware in this comment that you're being bombarded with propaganda, yet you still just cited the press freedom index with a straight face, indicating that it may have influenced you more than you realize.
Are you able to objectively look at the United States, or is American exceptionalism something you've heard your whole life about and just assume must be true?

If you knew anything about the US media you wouldn't ask that question. The modern American media is almost entirely left wing and often anti-American itself. It's not as bad as much of the European or Canadian media, but it's pretty bad. To answer your question, if we got into an expanded discussion of international comparisons, or frankly any other political/economic topic, you would see how fact based my opinions are.

And, relating to your earlier comment about press freedom, I will say that at least the US has the First Amendment and a stronger commitment to free speech than any other country on earth. You don't see things like "hate speech" laws, like you often do in Europe, where unpopular speech is actually outlawed, or in Canada, where stand up comedians have literally been fined tens of thousands of dollars simply for telling politically incorrect jokes. We may not have such protections much longer if the left gets its way, but I'm speaking of traditional American exceptionalism here.
Also, why is it so important to you how other countries conduct their affairs? Live and let live. (Barring serious violations of human rights, of course.)

When the US tried that before WW2 happened, and when it naively viewed the USSR as a partner in the immediate postwar world, as exemplified by astonishingly delusional statements like these....


"I think that if I give him (Stalin) everything that I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won’t try to annex anything and will work for a world of democracy and peace." - FDR

"I like Stalin . . . . He is very fond of classical music. . . . I got the impression Stalin would stand by his agreements and also that he had a Politburo on his hands like the 80th Congress." - Truman

http://www.nhinet.org/beichman16-1.pdf

....the Soviets broke promises to hold free elections in Central Europe, enslaved half the continent with oppressive puppet regimes, and within a few years half the world had gone communist. They had already infiltrated the US at the highest levels. Marxism, even more than Nazism, was a universalist ideology and its adherents wanted the entire world within the communist bloc. The US fortunately if belatedly changed its tune and started to recognize that Moscow backed communist expansions, especially on America's own doorstep, very much impacted its own interests and those of the rest of the free world, and sought to stop them. And, in addition to the strategic element, there were human rights violations in every communist country. Communism is an inherently oppressive system. That you'd even ask that question underscores what I originally said about you not knowing or caring much about the Cold War.

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I can't wait for them to get caught. I like Phillip but Elizabeth, not so much. And I'm at the episode right now where she drugged the Korean guy and is now taking off his clothes. His wife has been nothing but nice to her, and it seems she's bent on destroying them for what reason I haven't a clue. It seems she things he might know something, but even Phillip told her to let it alone and to tell the Centre that they failed. But failure does not seem to be an option for her. She'd rather mash up the family to get what she wants, yet look how protective she is of her own family. She was even willing to kill Pastor Tim to protect her own family, yet she seems hell-bent on destroying Young Hee's. I did like her a little but now I'm liking her even less.


Teenage love affairs are about intensity, not longevity

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HaHa
I think you've got a long wait :)
They didn't catch "the illegals" until 2010!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/anna-chapman

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Thanks for the link. Interesting info.

As this is a TV show hopefully it won't take as long. lol



Teenage love affairs are about intensity, not longevity

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100% rooting and that's not going to change no matter what happens on the show

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