MovieChat Forums > Haywire (2012) Discussion > Let's settle this once for all (male vs ...

Let's settle this once for all (male vs female fighting)

posted 13 years ago by battdvision
181 replies | jump to latest

For her weight class, Gina does great and is a pro MMA fighter, unfortunately I believe people seeing this movie will then say, "It is plausible that she could take out double digits of highly trained military men."

Well, Gina got crushed by Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos - 145 pound weight, in MMA. It was not even a contest. Cyborg is at the top and end of her game for female competition in the MMA, taking out the number 2 featherweight in the world, Hiroko Yamanaka, in just 16 seconds.

This has caused a stir that maybe, just possibly, she could compete with men (in her weight class), with former lightweight champion K.J. Noons saying, "I believe (male vs. female fights) wouldn't be that competitive, but every now and then there is a special athletic woman that can compete with men in fighting" going on to say that she ("Cyborg") could possibly compete in her weight class with men, though the MMA sanction would be highly against it for safety reasons.

There we have it, actual MMA discussion and evidence by professionals in this arena: the person who destroyed Gina is not even allowed to compete against males in her own weight class, let alone heavyweight, for safety reasons.

But here, we have Gina destroying not one or two inexperienced men, but dozens of highly trained men well outside of her weight class, all highly athletic - sometimes I like the hero or heroine to obey physics in movies for a sense of realism...

While this movie may have beautiful choreography, I believe it does the fighting world a disservice to blatantly promote unrealistic odds in a realistic fashion, somehow promoting an ideology that the modern man is a demasculated, self serving sexist pig that can never compete or stand a chance with a goddess.

[–] SausagePourVous 13 years ago

"While this movie may have beautiful choreography, I believe it does the fighting world a disservice to blatantly promote unrealistic odds in a realistic fashion, somehow promoting an ideology that the modern man is a demasculated, self serving sexist pig that can never compete or stand a chance with a goddess."

That´s right. You put it well. It´s linked a bit TOO MUCH to the concept of equality...on all fronts. Well,we´re not gonna get it sexually and we are not going to get it when it comes to physical strength and endurance....

I come from the country where The girl with a dragon tattoo was created. Basically the author witnessed a rape and did nothing and when he wasn´t forgiven after a phonecall(On phone?),he turned his cowardice into public therapy three novels where 93% of all men are sick rapists,rapists who serialkill on the weekends,dement nazis and generally condescending men who finally get what"they" deserve with a physical eye-for-an-eye ultrafeminism that takes such extreme turns in the sequel,you laugh.

The author even kept the name of the victim Lisbet=He became a millionaire by not aiding her etc.
As he should turn some of that male contempt and turn it against a mirror,this film inspires women cause they take what they can get as far as kicking our asses and cool heroines go,there´s a lack of them. Understandable to a point.

I get that men have been scum and one day should answer for alot of misogyny butdoes it have to be physical? more female characters can´t outsmart men,manipulate or be mentally stronger,it has to be physical?

Men of course support this and as mentioned both create scenarios and benefit out of guilt,pity,greed and a misguided vision of equality. The editing and realism here as camerawork goes makes it so much worse,Bays larger-then-life direction would´ve been to prefer.

But it´s Steven Soderbergh,he tries something new for him with a decent cast and a MMA-fighter in the lead,action-thriller. She´s hot and can fight but....80% at rotten Tomatoes? That is better then all of for instance Michael Bays films(No. As action,not a chance.) for instance and why such positive reviews,we can speculate. Equality or fake equality for the wrong reasons is a shame.

[–] bub_a_ho_tep 13 years ago

by - aliasbrush on Fri Jan 6 2012 07:22:09

So, in a nutshell, someone like Cristiane Santos shouldn't fight someone like YOU for HER safety?

You're talking about pro fighters, not soldiers, and certainly not men in general. And while there are undoubtedly some soldiers out there that are skilled enough to compete in pro fighting tournaments, an average soldier (with *relatively* little MMA training) would not be allowed to compete against those same fighters, for their own safety.

This is fiction. You might want to read that sentence a few times to let it sink in.

In real life, there are a lot of guys that could defeat Gina in a fight... but most couldn't. In real life, there are a lot of soldiers that would defeat Gina in a fight... but certainly NOT ALL would.

This is fiction.

In this movie, Gina's ability is above and beyond what it is in real life. She's not up against the toughest male pro fighters in the world, but elite soldiers that aren't necessarily as skilled in hand-to-hand combat.

As to realistically taking on dozens of these soldiers, no woman OR MAN could do that, so why haven't you taken your case to the Bourne or Bond forums, or any number of other boards. Why does this movie upset you?
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^ ^
The first response to this thread ended this whole discussion! FACT lol

[–] avalhon 13 years ago

So true! I love this response. Fact indeed. No speculation.

[–] natklof 13 years ago

Cristine Cyborg won so easily because she was using steroids. just google her name and steroids, she admits it (well.. just looking at her pictures was enough for anyone following pro women bodybuilding). so you see, even a woman just using male hormones, beats top 'unassisted' women.

But this is fiction.. the only question is, was it well choreographed?

[–] RanchDude 13 years ago

wot Wot WOT? You mean Women aren't the baddest of the badazzes? All these "millenia mean girls" have been brainwashed? Their non-tesitcle descending fluffboys will flame you here and talk about watching them at the gym. Wanna see how "badazz" these mean girls are? Just throw a spider on 'em.

[–] DJ-Ren 13 years ago

Sorry, I couldn't care less about this argument because, IMHO, saying "Gender A is **ALWAYS** stronger than Gender B, would always win in a fight, blah, bah-blah, buh-bleh" is like saying "Black people are ALWAYS better at [buh-bluh] than white people", "People who have immigrated to Brazil are ALWAYS better at [bb] than natives of Brazil".... whatever.

If my fat azz was being rescued by a fire fighter, I'm sorry to say it, but I'd rather have a fireMAN come and throw me over his shoulder and save my life than a firewoman. Doesn't mean women are tougher than men - if I was going to get in a physical fight with *my* woman, she'd kick my azz!

Are men better than women at hand-to-hand combat... is a stupid effin question. Are men more likely than women to imagine they're in a post-apocalyptic world to deal with the stress and fears of childbirth? Are 13 year old girls better at escaping from a heavily fortified military compound by using a doorknob than a 13 year old boy would be? Are men better than women at robbing banks? [Points if you know which 3 movies I'm referring to...]

...You see how quickly this turns inane, right? I like Steven Soderbergh (because male directors are ALWAYS better than female directors), so I asked my wife to pick up Haywire for me (because women are ALWAYS better than men at shopping), since she was going to Future Shop (or was it Best Buy? I'd bet my wife would remember - women ALWAYS have better memories than men, and it would have NOTHING to do with the fact that, while she actually WENT to the store, I'm outofmyhead on flu medication) to buy something anyway.

My apologies to the people who read a similarly stated position in those 11 pages of [bluh-bluh] posted before this, and had to deal with a MAN who was too lazy to read the entries himself.

"I am insane... and you are my insanity" - James Cole, 12 Monkeys

-AK

[–] AtheistRevolution 13 years ago

There is no need to explain anything. Let a women watch this movie or Alias and think she can fight a man. He beats her ass and then she cries abuse.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

[–] venusthrow 13 years ago

I think people are comparing apples and oranges. I think that in a ring an against a male of the same weight category, Gina could hold her own. Against guy in a higher weight category and I don't think she could win. Outside of the ring I think it can be anyone's game. In the movie the fighters used objects and the terrain to get an upper edge. For example when Gina used the metal doorway to trap that one guy. And Spoilers ..... When Kenneth tripped and hit his head on the rock and trapped his leg.

I think everyone else has given great arguments. I am a woman and I agree that women and men are made differently therefore each sex has their strengths and weaknesses. I think it is difficult to make generalities as not everyone (even within a gender) are made equally.

As for this movie, I think that Gina is the most realistic in terms of fighting abilities since michelle rodriguez

[–] dancestilmidnight 13 years ago

Let's face it guys, not all men treat women well- fathers abuse daughters, older brothers bully sisters, boyfriends don't respect girlfriends, etc. Allow us mistreated women our fantasy revenge. One of my favorite genres are the action movies where women can't live with them, can't live without them, might as well beat the crap out of them. Some of my favorite female fighters are Milla Jovovich (Ultraviolet, great choreography) Charlize Theron, Natalie Portman, Jennifer Garner, Maggie Q, and so on. Do I think they could beat men? Probably not, but that's not why I watch the movies. Keep 'em coming.

And why don't you macho men try treating the women in your lives with respect so they don't need to vicariously watch women beating up men?

[–] marauder256 13 years ago

Because if they did, it would still exist because it is a male fantasy?

[–] toothpickvick 13 years ago

Arguing the realism of Gina Carano being capable of beat up a number of trained soldiers is like arguing whether Daniel Radcliffe can really do magic. In order for a story to work it doesn't need to be "realistic" for a the actor to be capable of the feats of their character you just need to believe that within the context of the story that the character is.

[–] demonx70 13 years ago

I didn't read the whole thread so I apologise if it has already been said but the initial post was singing the praises of Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos. I just wanted to say she tested positive for steroids after her last fight and was suspended for a year.

As for her taking down dozens of well trained men. firstly it was a film. Secondly, many army and police don't have any kind of specialist hand to hand training beyond basic cqc. There is no reason to think that she couldn't handle people (most of which she took by surprise).

"Bang, and the dirt is gone."

[–] Ghost__Dad 13 years ago

She doesn't destroy dozens of highly trained men. She defeats Channing Tatum and Michael Fassbender, who we can assume are highly trained (and they're not easy fights for her). She destroys Ewan McGregor, who seems to have some training at least. She destroys the one guy in Barcelona, who is a gunman with unknown hand-to-hand training. She defeats two Garda in a surprise attack, and they are mostly focused on trying to use their guns. She defeats one other dude under Kenneth's command in her dad's house.

These seven are the only people she fights in the entire movie, and all of them except the two cops are one on one fights. The cops, Scottish actor Ewan McDonald, and the guy in her dad's house are all taken by surprise. She's sucker punched by Fassbender, but seems to know what's coming.

[–] devirginizer83-1 13 years ago

I think most people have already pointed out the idiocy of putting Gina down. She's an amazing fighter playing a role in a fictional film: unless you are willing to apply the same standards to Matt Damon, Brad Pitt, Jason Statham and Tom Cruise in THEIR action films when it comes to realism then your real issue is sexism plan and simple.

And I love the fact that people seem to think that having more muscle and more body mass is somehow equal to knowing how to fight. It's not. I have done shifts in a trauma ER and seen HUGE, ripped dudes in tears with broken noses, smashed ankles and broken wrists done by their significant others aka WOMEN.

Most people think fights are what you see in Hollywood: two people facing each other and trading punches and kicks. It's not. Most fights are two people facing each other down, trying to psych the other person out until one of the throws a punch. And then it's nothing but a grappling contest as they roll around the floor like idiots.

MOST men have never been hit in the face, square. A punch to the nose (trust me on this) is not something that can be shrugged off just because you have "bigger body mass". There's no muscle there. A punch to the nose will immediately fill your eyes with tears. Someone like Gina would DESTROY your average dude.

[–] marauder256 13 years ago

And I love the fact that people seem to think that having more muscle and more body mass is somehow equal to knowing how to fight. It's not. I have done shifts in a trauma ER and seen HUGE, ripped dudes in tears with broken noses, smashed ankles and broken wrists done by their significant others aka WOMEN.

And were there any police officers around to pick him up after his latest domestic escapade?

[–] mjohnson062 13 years ago

Yes! Well stated.

For fun, I looked up stats for the actors involved, but probably only have solid info on heights: Carano 5'8" 143lbs, Tatum 6'1" 170lbs (I believe he's closer to 200), Fassbender 6" 185lbs (I believe in Haywire he's closer to 170). So, this gives us "physics" for the most highly trained "fictional" players. Ewan McGregor's character I'm not putting in the "highly trained" category, as he didn't fair as well but could have, based upon training he's had for multiple previous movies (implication being he was more "management" than muscle, by design).

As to the actual fights, as pointed out by Ghost_Dad, they were mostly one-on-one and not too many of them. She was "surprised" by Fassbender, but not really, as she damn well knew something was up and was already solidly on edge; in fact, I'd say her resistance likely caught Fassbender by surprise. In a hand-to-hand fight, I'd speculate Tatum would be the biggest challenge, but she did have assistance in the diner, as several folks, including her "hostage", became involved.

Finally, training really, really, really makes a difference. Carano's "MMA training" would definitely make her a real-life badass, but add the "fictional" military training and she'd be formidable. I've had the high-end military training, which isn't martial arts for self-defense, it is for killing and maiming. I'm quite confident that that in close quarters, if I knew my life was on the line, I'd be pretty formidable. Could even the fictional Carano beat me? Likely not. However, I'm significantly bigger than anyone in this movie (I'd make a *beep* spy, I wouldn't blend). Giving up 30-60lbs is significant, but we're not talking about boxing or MMA. We're not talking about "out of weight class" fighters, we're talking about REAL LIFE. Striking to kill is way, way, way different than striking for sport. Yes, MMA is brutal, but the fighters are mostly on equal ground, have studied their opponents (watched hours of tape), etc. Fassbender's character was warned "don't think of her as a girl" - that's it. I wouldn't expect to run across a random person on the street that knew how to apply an arm bar, rear naked choke, etc. I also wouldn't expect them to know how to strike the throat to disable vs. kill (I do). Final reason to NOT compare MMA to "real life" is that MMA is in a ring, octagon, whatever; it is padded, has specific dimensions and is not filled with random sharp and blunt objects. Knowing how to utilize your surroundings is a HUGE part of close quarters combat training. "Do I grab the lamp, chair or mop bucket?" The answer depends on your mental/physical state, the other surroundings, your opponents mental/physical state, etc. (I've used a mop bucket in a fight, true story). Some blows/strikes are made to gain an advantage for a 2nd or 3rd killing strike (as the first strike is a set up to wind, reposition or psychologically disarm an opponent).

Last note (I know I'm rambling and I know I said "finally" already, but I just finished watching the movie on DVD): Are you going to say "Carano can't kick so-and-so's ass" when you've watched Tom Cruise, Matt Damon, etc, do the same *beep* Really?! Most of these folks aren't as big as you think they are and Carano is bigger than you think she is (in a world where your average actress/model is 95-115lbs and she's 143. If this is what you dwelled on during the movie, you should just give up on trying to enjoy fiction or admit you're a misogynist.

[–] rijotan 13 years ago

Just like to say that I hate seeing Tom cruise or Matt Damon in action movies. They just don't move convincingly enough. Carano looks way more convincing than those 2.

I also have no problem with casting a female lead, since I know to watch any action movie you really have to suspend belief.

The only thing I sort of dislike about seeing female leads in action movies, is that they just plain move slower and less energetic than men.

No matter how much cgi, editing, or stunt work you put, Angelina Jolie or Hathaway or Scarjo will still always look slower and weaker than a male lead, simply because they aren't as explosive as men.

Carano was way better, you can literally feel the oomph in her kicks. But she still looked slow, especially in her running scenes and the rooftop scenes.

In fact I just rewatched her fight with Fassbender, and although Fassbender has no martial arts training that I know of, he still looked faster and slightly more explosive than Carano, and his hits look more painful too. This was even more obvious in her fight against Tatum... but then Tatum is a dancer, so I expected him to be able to move.

[–] higgybb 13 years ago

GOOD LORD, WHO CARES?!!
It's a movie.

I'm pretty certain Christopher Reeves couldn't lift a car either.