MovieChat Forums > Haywire (2012) Discussion > Let's settle this once for all (male vs ...

Let's settle this once for all (male vs female fighting)


For her weight class, Gina does great and is a pro MMA fighter, unfortunately I believe people seeing this movie will then say, "It is plausible that she could take out double digits of highly trained military men."

Well, Gina got crushed by Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos - 145 pound weight, in MMA. It was not even a contest. Cyborg is at the top and end of her game for female competition in the MMA, taking out the number 2 featherweight in the world, Hiroko Yamanaka, in just 16 seconds.

This has caused a stir that maybe, just possibly, she could compete with men (in her weight class), with former lightweight champion K.J. Noons saying, "I believe (male vs. female fights) wouldn't be that competitive, but every now and then there is a special athletic woman that can compete with men in fighting" going on to say that she ("Cyborg") could possibly compete in her weight class with men, though the MMA sanction would be highly against it for safety reasons.

There we have it, actual MMA discussion and evidence by professionals in this arena: the person who destroyed Gina is not even allowed to compete against males in her own weight class, let alone heavyweight, for safety reasons.

But here, we have Gina destroying not one or two inexperienced men, but dozens of highly trained men well outside of her weight class, all highly athletic - sometimes I like the hero or heroine to obey physics in movies for a sense of realism...

While this movie may have beautiful choreography, I believe it does the fighting world a disservice to blatantly promote unrealistic odds in a realistic fashion, somehow promoting an ideology that the modern man is a demasculated, self serving sexist pig that can never compete or stand a chance with a goddess.

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I haven't seen the movie but read through the comments.

I think too much credence is given to the hand to hand training of law enforcement and military. Some of course in that field take it to a high level and very seriously, but even then they are typically not strong in a well rounded MMA sense. Their training is diversified into many other areas (fire arms, scenarios, protocol, survival, equipment/tech, in some cases stealth etc.). On your average day, your average guy in law enforcement or military is nowhere near the fight readiness of a top MMA fighter. They simply spend the majority of their days doing very different things. One spends 4-6 hours a day training hand to hand, one spends 1-6 hours a week. That's a staggering disparity.

If you don't have martial arts experience, it's hard to understand just how dominating someone with more experience than you can be. MMA fights try to match people of similar skill to make longer exciting fights. But if you've ever seen a fight end in 10 seconds, that's what a top MMA fighter can do to even a lightly trained average person consistently over and over. Whatever a moderately trained guy will do, they've had it thrown at them 10,000 times by someone more skilled and will counter them hard. A little training can be dangerous because it's hard to know just how outmatched you can be until you experience it.

There's a famous Bas Rutten bar fight where he is knocking out security (possibly cops) that wanted to pick a fight with him and he needed as little as one or two shots each to drop them. Then they were getting up and he could put them right back down, then they started grabbing broom handles... I forget how many there were, but it sounded less like a fight than a game of whack-a-mole. He tells the whole story on a Joe Rogan podcast.

That's enough about the disparity in the level of training.

To bring women into it, I can only say that many times I've seen women easily dominate someone with inferior experience but superior strength and weight, and I've been on the receiving end of it. In my limited experience sparring with women, I didn't think their disadvantage was a lack of strength (which is easily trumped by technique), but a lack of "power". By power I mean generating force quickly with "snap" or "explosive force" such as that needed for a knockout, definitive takedowns, quickly change position etc. What power translates into is less time needed to take advantage of a situation, or less time to create advantageous positions. So although I would not be surprised to see female top MMA fighters beat the crap out of inferior male opponents all day, I would be surprised to see them knocking them out like dominoes (whereas I wouldn't be surprised to see a male do this) and ragdolling them around consistently. A top female MMA fighter in Bas Rutten's situation is less likely to be able to drop guys in one or two shots like a game of whack-a-mole and will likely need more time to use superior skill which with multiple opponents spells trouble.

That being said knockout power is a mysterious thing that some people have at 140, and some at 200 don't have. I don't find it far fetched that a highly trained women at 170 would have it against a male. But the proof is in the pudding, and I don't see enough of a fight record out there to say how far fetched it would be to have a women knocking guys out like dominoes. But I'm sure far more ridiculous things than that happen :)

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Lighten up, Francis

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I don't know why you boys all have your whitey tighties up in a bunch. This is a MOVIE. It's not some feminist propaganda trying to prove that women are as physically powerful as men. IT'S A MOVIE! Gina Carano is a beautiful female specimen who is incredibly fierce and strong for a woman. Can't we all just appreciate that?

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^^ This. ITS A BLOODY MOVIE. Commando is hardly a real representation of a special forces soldier, but we accept Arnie slaughtering his way through 180+ people on screen, why are you not prepared to suspend the same level of disbelief for someone who has proven in real life that they actually know what they are doing, unlike Arnie, who was a body builder, ffs.

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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[deleted]

She's not a beautiful woman. You went wrong right there. Nahh... not at all.

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Um catwoman and batgirl take down plenty of huge tough-looking bad guys all the time. It's a movie based on a fictional character. That character just has the strength of aaaahnold but the body of a goddess. Just like a comic book character.

Watch Tron:Legacy 2010 For Free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgZ7gMze7A

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Are you stupid? You do realize that this is a movie, and not an mma fight right? If you watched it, then you know that she is also a highly trained military person as well in the film. Obviously she would get crushed against male professional fighters at her own weight in real life. Also in real life she would beat most average men her weight. However, that has nothing to do with a fictional action movie.

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FYI: A few months after beating Carano, Santos tested positive for anabolic steroids. This is calling the validity of all of her past victories (including over Carano) to come under scrutiny.

This whole argument is moot. "A girl like her couldn't possibly dominate bigger and stronger men." Um, from what I saw, Tatum and Fassbender were beating her ASS until she managed to "tactfuly" gain the upper hand. She beat them by TECHNIQUE, not BRUTE FORCE or POWER.

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I wrestled in high school. I have seen plenty of female wrestlers beat male wrestlers of the same weightclass.

I learned a tiny bit of judo. I saw a female defeat multiple men in that as well. Same with boxing and karate. It is probably true that a top MMA female would lose to a top or even average MMA male in the ring but that is not the same as a real world fight. In the movie she has advantages that would never happen in the ring like improvised weapons, help from another person, attacking from the shadows, and being severely underestimated.

This movie is not the real world either. If I had to live in a world where movies where hot chicks beat the *beep* out of dudes were outlawed because some "MMA Scholar" doesn't think it is possible then I would be a very sad panda.

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I've seen women do well against men in grappling as well, but only in the lighter weight classes. I've never seen a women do well in full contact striking combative sports(like Muay Thai) against a skilled man .

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Dude I know a guy who
would get beat up by
his younger sister.
There was size and weight
differences sure but she still
destroyed him. Started happening in
the junior high days they'd argue and
plain and simple she kicked his ass.
He told me not to tell anyone. I didn't.
After about 20 times folks began to talk.
Marks and bruises. Their parents began asking.
By the end of the junior high first year the
parents caught the little sis beating up her
big bro. Cat was out of the bag.
She told one friend and more and more
people found out about it.
That summer during a cook-out they
started bickering again and she beat the
crap out of him infront of everybody there.
This happened at the beach a month after that.
The guy admitted to me he was afraid of her.

As for Gina Carano she could destroy me. Easily.


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Tell me more, please.


Alison Lohman for Supergirl

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I saw a bear ride a bicycle once..... a guy make a jump shot from half court ....

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LOL!

Alison Lohman for Supergirl

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[deleted]

Bingo.

I *think* we're posting in a troll thread. =) At least I hope so.

-
Wait,I'm confused about the movie.So the cops knew that internal affairs were setting them up?

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I neither agree or disagree with all the stuff that has been said. I will simply plead the FIF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Gina Carano is the real deal. FACT!

Alison Lohman for Supergirl

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It's interesting that all the fight comparisons in this thread are based on sport fighting. The techniques used in the real world are totally different. Just look at the MMA rules as an example -

Eye gouging - banned.
Fishhooking - banned.
Pinching or tearing of skin or nerves to cause pain - banned.
Throat strikes - banned.
Deliberate breaking of joints (esp. small) - banned
Attacks to the back of the head or spine - banned
Attacks to the groin - banned
Sticking a finger into any orifice or wound - banned
Biting - banned
Kicking/kneeing the head when the opponent is down - banned
Stomping downed opponent - banned
Pile driving - banned
Gripping clothing - banned
Head butt - banned

And so on. Yet the basis of any real combat martial art specifically aims to use all of the above. That is why "traditional" martial arts don't do well in the ring. The exponents are banned from using anything that would really do damage. For instance, it only takes about 16 psi to break anyone's knee joint (fig. varies a bit according the who you ask).

Skill, speed, and the willingness to instantly do fatal damage count for a lot in a real world fight.

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it´s a MOVIE!!!!!
but yea, if shes a expeet hand2hand traind agent she cud pound "soldiers and swat" becous thay are more into guns :)
but as the fight to her "partner" chaning tatum also highley traind, he whas going to win if not the dud had helpt her :)

in real life, its good that girls dont compeet with guys for healsth safety..

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Newsflash! The actor who plays Thor can't really fly! It's a movie ;-) Of course women can beat up as many highly trained soldiers as the director can throw at them ;-)

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newsflash! "dahhh"
thats my point..
its the fun with a movie.

I never said that she cud take out as many as posible,,, plez read agein..

I said it come down to what the fighters are training for..

if its two guys/girls,
one "A" military elit with weapon expert and decent hand fighting skill.
and the other "B" is a military elit with expert hand2hand cobat training and decent weaponskill..
B wud prob win that hand2hand fight moste of the time
and A prob win in a firefight..

its al coming down to training and exp for most part..

but as you see I also said that if a girl and a guy with same training and skill, the girl will lose almost every time becous of the differens in body/muscle mass..

me I have traind martial art for 8years, and can say if I met a boxer standing fighting it wud be hard, but if I got inside hes perimiter (dont know the spelling), I wud take him out most of the times :)

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