MovieChat Forums > Haywire (2012) Discussion > Let's settle this once for all (male vs ...

Let's settle this once for all (male vs female fighting)

posted 13 years ago by battdvision
181 replies | jump to latest

For her weight class, Gina does great and is a pro MMA fighter, unfortunately I believe people seeing this movie will then say, "It is plausible that she could take out double digits of highly trained military men."

Well, Gina got crushed by Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos - 145 pound weight, in MMA. It was not even a contest. Cyborg is at the top and end of her game for female competition in the MMA, taking out the number 2 featherweight in the world, Hiroko Yamanaka, in just 16 seconds.

This has caused a stir that maybe, just possibly, she could compete with men (in her weight class), with former lightweight champion K.J. Noons saying, "I believe (male vs. female fights) wouldn't be that competitive, but every now and then there is a special athletic woman that can compete with men in fighting" going on to say that she ("Cyborg") could possibly compete in her weight class with men, though the MMA sanction would be highly against it for safety reasons.

There we have it, actual MMA discussion and evidence by professionals in this arena: the person who destroyed Gina is not even allowed to compete against males in her own weight class, let alone heavyweight, for safety reasons.

But here, we have Gina destroying not one or two inexperienced men, but dozens of highly trained men well outside of her weight class, all highly athletic - sometimes I like the hero or heroine to obey physics in movies for a sense of realism...

While this movie may have beautiful choreography, I believe it does the fighting world a disservice to blatantly promote unrealistic odds in a realistic fashion, somehow promoting an ideology that the modern man is a demasculated, self serving sexist pig that can never compete or stand a chance with a goddess.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stevenashslittlebro 11 years ago

I train mma. Gina Carano could beat these men. Fighters are way above trained military men. There are 2 army rangers that train at my school, they don't have any sort of advantage in grappling or striking bc of their military training.
Gina Carano would destroy most men of the world. Once you train jiu jitsu and muay thai you realize strength is trumped by technique and skill. If the strongest person wins then why don't we see fighters that look like bodybuilders?

[–] michinine 11 years ago

(Spoilers, obviously!)

Thank you. Most of those pushed up soldiers are quite well trained with knifes, guns, but not so much in hand to hand.

Albeit Fassbender looked slim and fit, he didn't had really muscle power. He might be fast and could catch some of her hits. His only advantage was surprise and pushing her around so she can't get a clear hit, wearing her out. One or two well placed kicks and he would be out - her leg muscles where triple his size. They used that in the final fight scene where she kicked him trough the door.

The two swat guys weren't even in the same class as her. Their gear was designed for urban warfare, not for hand to hand combat. Their helmets restricted their view and it was filmed the way that the couldn't sustain some harder hits from her without grasping for air.

It was laughable (and well depicted) how the "manager" McGregor at the end tried to run away. When he lost his sidearm he lost the fight.

The only "true" fight was in the bathroom at her dads house - it took a while and she probably was super beeped because someone shot her "boyfriend".

I find this discussions amusing. When Vin Diesel ends up in an airplane with a 200lbs muscle package as a foe, they didn't let him fight that. He would loose with the next hit. The "plot" requires "Dwayne Johnson" to be there so its "believable".

But when a woman with probably 5% bodyfat and (leg) muscles like bridge ropes hit the common man barely able to reload is gun without trembling, hell breaks lose.

[–] forzaeva 11 years ago

'fast-laugh' said:

"I used to bodybuild and do MMA.. I understand the full import of pure size differences despite skill level.. Your average idiot(lol that they try to play that card against you when they are actually the ignorant fools commenting on a subject they don't understand) doesn't realize what is entailed in any sort of combative encounter.. I'm 175 lbs. Mediocre training in various fighting styles. Gina is an incredible fighter among her peers. I have HIGH certainty that I could dominate her in a fight. Why? Not only is there the 30 lbs difference, but but men have more muscle density than women. As another said--natural biology due to the circumstances of evolution. So, that 30 lb overall weight difference actually accounts for a more substantial muscle difference."

You're right about the biological differences between men and women in general.

But I still am not so sure you would dominate her in a fight; I'm more inclined to believe that Gina would hand your butt to you on a silver platter.

(Edit)

Reasons why: You admitted you're mediocre in training, which I believe. Mediocre IMO means average at best, which is a level the vast majority (that sure includes me) will never go beyond, physically nor mentally.

Your 175 lbs weight gives you a 30 lbs advantage over Gina, but gives you far from an athletic/bodybuilder's physique unless your height is well below average. My guess is that your physique is mediocre, your strength is mediocre, you're probably around 12 - 15 % bodyfat, at average height. That's far from any physical specimen with high muscle density.

No pun intended, we're probably in the same boat. I've been on and off doing some weights for 10 some years now, I'm around 200 lbs now (used to be a bit more lean back in the day), around average height (5'10-11"). My physique is nothing special, mediocre strength and even that might be generous IMO. When in the gym, I always put in a hard effort, so it's not due to that. Sure, it would depend on who you ask, but I generally set standards high for what I consider above average and I was never known to boast; examples:

*BOXING*
Mike Tyson: Excellent power, hard chin per se, his ability to absorb punishment was generally good, would've been better if his endurance were top notch, endurance was limited due to lung problems and possibly lack of heart.

*MMA*
Gina Carano: Her 650 lbs punching power means she's a hard hitter considering her 145 lbs match weight. She was TKO'ed at the end of the 1st round by the stronger Cristiane 'Cyborg' Santos, who might have been on steroids during their match.

*PHYSIQUE*
Mark Wahlberg, (In his prime) Stallone, Jean-Claude Van Damme: Athletic, semi-bodybuilder physiques.

A professional male journeyman/borderline contender within MMA at 175 lbs would probably dominate Gina and KO her within 1 round. But you're not, of course neither am I, so there you go. Bottom line is, Gina Carano would give you and me a thorough spanking.

[–] reaseltbim 11 years ago

I think it is really pathetic than Angelina Jolie can have a full career of playing badass female characters that beat up and kill guys left and right. But Gina in this one is too unrealistic? wtf

[–] forzaeva 11 years ago

Also keep in mind how several of the fights have got Mallory (Carano) in (at least some) trouble (*SPOILERS*):

Aaron (Tatum) - Assaults her by surprise, gains the upper hand because of that "coffee-cup ambush", deals damage, loses the upper hand when Scott (Angarano) interferes, then recieves a thourough spanking including pistol-whipping at the hands of Mallory.

Paul (Fassbender) - Assaults her from behind, is able to keep the upper hand for a while because of that, does some damage before the tables are turned against him, recieves punishment, is kicked through a door's glass, jumps back at Mallory, is eventually leg-choked, KO'ed and disposed of by Mallory.

Kenneth (McGregor) - He does not recieve any proper beatdown, he's even able to down her a few times, but he keeps running away and eventually gets stuck, then meets his demise.

She doesn't dominate them as if she were (i.e.) 'God-Mode' Michael J. White in 'Blood & Bone'. This adds realism to the fight scenes.

There are plenty of unrealistic, thourough one-sided cans of 'whoop-ass' handed out by heroines lot less credible than Mallory.

[–] gluttun 11 years ago

I haven't read the whole thread to see if it's been mentioned, but can people who talk about Gina being 145 lbs look up the term 'weight cutting'? Most fighters who fight in the '145 lb' weight class don't weigh 145 normally, they dehydrate themselves before they weigh in so they're a number of pounds lighter than they usually are, then gain it back by the time they fight. Ronda Rousey the champion of the 135 class weighs 155-160 lbs most of the time in reality. So if we're talking about Gina in fighting shape in real life, she weighs at least 160 (even though she fought in the 145 class, she may not have cut as much water weight as Rowdy Ronda because Rousey is a monster).

Get to know up-and-coming fantasy author Billy Wong - http://bklynbill.blogspot.com/

[–] milan_kovacevic-04 11 years ago

It's a movie, dude. It's like bearing the fact that Stallone would get his ass kicked by any average boxer even though he played Rocky, the boxing champion.

Also, Cyborg Santos scares the *beep* out of me! :)

[–] forzaeva 10 years ago

"It's a movie, dude. It's like bearing the fact that Stallone would get his ass kicked by any average boxer even though he played Rocky, the boxing champion."

Actually, he was KO'ed by a hard body-shot from Earnie Shavers (an above average boxer, though) auditioning for 'Rocky III'... So he would certainly not be able to take the punishment that the 'Rocky'-saga portrays IRL.

[–] Nemesis42 11 years ago

Who gives a hoot? Relax.
It's a fictional movie, a fantasy.
End of story.

[–] jay-95-971113 10 years ago

Despite the fact that this is a work of fiction, and that NOBODY can REALLY perform like that... you're mixing worlds. This is not a movie about a female MMA fighter, this is a movie STARRING a female MMA figher PLAYING a Black Ops field agent.
If you take out all the unrealistic gymnastics, super human endurance, etc... then it's perfectly plausible for a female black ops operative to take out most general soldiers, not matter how "athletic" they are.
(Note on the super human endurance, anyone who has partaken in or witnessed a REAL fist fight, not a competition fight, especially a life-or-death one, will tell you they are over in a matter of seconds. Usually less than a dozen).

Fighting for your life is nothing at all like competition fighting.

The point is that Black Ops agents like this are trained totally differently, and far more intensively in close-quarters combat. They are also trained very specifically to kill. The concept of "weight-class" isn't nearly so large a factor in real life, especially when speaking of high-end training. Most of it is about who can think the fastest, stay the calmest and be the most brutal.

Ask Bruce Lee if he was concerned about weight-class. Yes, he was an actor, but he was also the founder of Jeet Kun Do and a philosopher... who was challenged almost daily on the streets of Hong Kong by fighters wanting to make a name for themselves.

It doesn't matter how "athletic" you are when you have a shattered knee, a dislocated shoulder, or a crushed larynx.

[–] forzaeva 10 years ago

Agreed with last post by jay.

I suspect the origin of these threads would also be insecurity of average males who indeed would be spanked by Gina Carano.

Say you watch the 'Charlie's Angels' movies, for example. Cameron Diaz & co. whooping butts in highly unlikeley, silly (in part CGI) fantasy manner. The average adult male does not feel threatened, as that won't happen IRL.

But Gina Carano has got the rough looks and the skills of somebody who INDEED would pose a serious threat to the average adult male IRL, hence these threads emerge.

The average adult male is not strong in my book. Men who simply cannot face the fact that they might be OWNED by Gina. Time to face the facts, admit defeat and move on.

[–] jay-95-971113 10 years ago

Hear, hear.
It's time we stopped trying to ridiculously hard to find our differences (which are few) and acknowledge our far most vast similarities.
It drives me nuts when people say "the female species" or "the male species"... we're not a different species. We're just different genders of the same species.

...Also, high school is not a career.

:P

[–] TheManInOil 10 years ago

Let me get this straight - your objection to an action movie is that you don't think the fights are realistic?

lol