Why do most people feel sorry for Holden but not Alyssa? - Chasing Amy (1997) Discussion

[–] lornamd-1 17 years ago

I think its partly because Alyssa lied about never having been with a man and partly because she had sex with two men. If a man has sex with two women he's a cool guy, if a woman has sex with two men she's a slut. Its dumb and unfair but its how a lot of people feel.

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[–] Thrillhouse (1509) 6 years ago

From another Kevin Smith movie, "A lock that is opened by many keys is a bad lack". What you have described is unfair for men not for women. You do not even recognize "the loser male". Men pay, women get paid.

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[–] MovieFan00 (211) 6 years ago

“A pencil that had been sharpened too many times, is a useless pencil” - see, anyone can make up useless sayings that don’t even make sense. A vagina is not a lock that is keeping something hidden. The quote you posted is just misogynistic trash that incels love to use, because they can’t get any themselves. It’s laughable.

Society judging women more harshly for having sex, is unfair on men? Hilarious.

Men pay and women are paid? What are you talking about?

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[–] cyguration (3951) 4 years ago

LOL... brainwashed Liberals have no clue how the real world works.

First of all...

Society judging women more harshly for having sex, is unfair on men? Hilarious.

Because women can get pregnant and have kids and men can't. If you haven't stopped to notice there's an epidemic of teen pregnancies in the U.S., and many women end up on welfare as single-mothers, which in turn produces a high count of criminals and prison-bound delinquents.

Feel free to try to spin this as a way of being a man's fault, but at the end of the day if parents were more adamant about teaching their daughters about saying "No!" to every horny boy out there and doing their darndest to instill a since of chastity in her principles, we would have fewer single mothers, fewer school shooters, and fewer boys being prepped for a life of crime of servitude in the penal system.

Men pay and women are paid? What are you talking about?

Being poorly educated about life lesson's shines through more with this question than your Liberal-tinged statement that preceded this.

What he's referring to is the fact that many men pay for porn, prostitutes, escorts, strippers and in general, the accommodation of sex. Usually this is used as a surrogate to vicariously indulge in a sense of comfort from a woman.

It's an addiction that can't be quenched, but forevermore placated with material gain until they take a journey six feet under a slab of stone as their permanent residence.

If you still don't get the gist, just look up how much female pornstars make compared to male pornstars. In other words, women can use their sex to gain status and wealth in life, and oftentimes do at the expense of men.

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[–] razorwinged_dragonfly 17 years ago

we feel sorry for him because we've all been just as stupid sometime in our lives, and it probably still haunts us...
I guess most guys out there are chasing amy...

-A real friend stabs you in the front-

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[–] Bitter_Almonds 17 years ago

Is there a third option to this question? As in, for those who didn't feel sorry for a pussified idiot and his slut-turned-saint of a girlfriend?

Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

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[–] lornamd-1 17 years ago

nuwavghost is exactly the kind of hypocrite I was talking about, in various threads he has called Alyssa a slut, a whore, said her sexual past was monstrous, he has no sympathy for her and only an insecure loser would date her.

But if you read his first post on the "Am I The Only Guy Who Sympathised With Holden" thread he writes he might stay with her if "she agrees to a threesome with me and another chick". He would happily do the same thing he demonizes Alyssa for having done. So by his own logic he is a slut, a whore, capable of monstrous things and a woman would have to be an insecure loser would date him.

What is the difference between a man having sex with two women and a woman having sex with two men?

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[–] Bitter_Almonds 17 years ago

lol @ dorknamd. Someone pissed on its wheaties. You know what the difference is? I wouldn't make any beans about what I want from a chick, if I know how that chick is. A girl can refer to me however the hell she wants. I don't exist for anyone else's benefit. Since I am upfront about what I want, being called a "hypocrite" is absolutely stupid.

Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

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[–] lornamd-1 17 years ago

dorkna? Wow that hurt.

"Since I am upfront about what I want, being called a "hypocrite" is absolutely stupid"

You said that a woman who has sex with 2 men is a slut and no man with self respect would date her, then you said you would like to have sex with 2 women. So you are criticizing women who do the same thing that you would do given half the chance and that is hypocritical.

If someone says that anyone who does drugs is a scum then said they would do cocaine given the chance that would make them a hypocrite like you are. You didn't say Alyssa was a whore and no man should date her because she lied you said it was because she had sex with 2 men so the fact you are upfront about wanting to have a threesome with 2 women but would never date a woman if she had a threesome with 2 men makes you a hypocrite.

Unless you are saying its alright to date a woman who has had sex with 2 men if she's upfront about it. Is that what you're saying?

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[–] Bitter_Almonds 17 years ago

No person with self-respect would choose to be with one who controls what they want in a relationship, which is what alyssa did in the end by refusing holden's request. It doesn't matter that she was a slut, that she slept with two guys, that she might've slept with a whole lotta people. It matters when she changes the terms and conditions later on in the relationship by lying and pretending to be someone she is not. If holden had known alyssa was a slut from the start, he'd either have gotten over it or he would've requested to have a threesome early on before things got serious. The whole fiasco could've been avoided almost entirely. It's a matter of expectations. If a person knows their current significant other was a slut/whore, their expectations would be different than if they knew they weren't promiscuous (or even the type who would wait until marriage).

Edit: Yes. I meant it is far better to date a woman who is honest and upfront about those things. To some, it doesn't matter at all, but, to others, it does. The thing is, one can't really tell early on in a relationship unless the subject is broached.

Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

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[–] lornamd-1 17 years ago

If you are saying that you wouldn't judge a woman for sleeping with 2 men as long as she isn't a liar that is fair enough and not hypocritical.

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[–] fostre 17 years ago

The difference is men are still unsecure frighten machists.

I do sympathize with Holden because he messed up the best relationship he had over stupid insecurities. But Alyssa is definetlly who lost the most, since he not only lost her love but also had to do a lot of sacrifices to get it.

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

What is the difference between a man having sex with two women and a woman having sex with two men?

Hey Lorna, a guy's a pro, a girl is nothing but a whore. Some guys, just like Banky, can't wrap their heads around hearing a girl say she's going to f--k someone. It comes down to this, most people think that any woman having sex with two men could never be in control of that situation.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] cubefn 17 years ago

it would appear she was just a slut but if you remember her speech when she is lying in bed with holden she tells exactly why she is the way she is and give a reason for all the promiscuous??? sex, she was searching for her one true love and why should she automatically eliminate half the population by not including women

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[–] citizenofdis 16 years ago

Actually watching that scene I initially became suspicious about her not being with a man before. If she is right in not wanting to eliminate half the population that would necessitate experimenting with men - and that what it turned out she did.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] retoronto 17 years ago

"Alyssa changed her whole life around for Holden where he didnt have to change a thing, she points this out to him in the movie, at the beginning of the film she was already in a relationship with another woman before Holden came along"

Alyssa was NOT in a "relationship" at the beginning of the movie. I think it was pretty black and white that her and that slutty blonde girl were just playing around! It was all based on sex! She even mentioned that they hadn't seen each other in a long time!

"changing her entire sexual orientation, alienating all her friends, a total upheavel of her life."

"True Friends" don't get disappointed in you because of your sexual orientation!! What is it with lesbians anyways? They are always on the defense... "We lost another one girls!!"

I agree with you that Holden is a complete dumbass and this is shown when he attempts to get Banky and Alyssa into a threeway!! And I DID feel sorry for Alyssa in alot of ways but I also feel that lying at the beginning of any relationship is never a good start! So Holden had a right to be upset! NOT because of the things she did in the past... which is what I think bothered him most... but for Alyssa lying to him and telling him that he was the first man she had ever been with. For months... she had lead him to believe that there could never be a chance between them because she just wasn't attracted to men! Then he finds out that it's because she was a total slut in the past! She just should have told the truth from the beginning... it would have saved her alot of heartache.... and him too!

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[–] cubefn 17 years ago

She didnt tell him about her past because none of that matters...the only thing that matters is that she was with him now, its like the arguement between dante and veronica about her sucking 36 er... 37 dicks, Dante was so shocked about all she has done in the past that he forgets that he was #37 the last one, thats what matters, this is why she didnt tell holden about her past because it was irrelavent not too mention it was the whole point of the chasing amy story!

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[–] doc-animation 13 years ago

Actually this is a poor example. Veronica (as far as we know) wasn't bi sexual or a lesbian. A different set of rules apply in a situation like Holden and Alyssa because Holden generally thought he was the first guy she had ever been romantically involved with. Alyssa even says in the beginning of the movie that she was uncomfortable around men or something of that nature.

So I reccomend you stop defending alyssa at all costs because both are wrong here. You are correct that Holden shouldn't care in what she did in the past(she was in high school for christs sakes) however, the minute the two became romantically involved this is something she should have mentioned. It would be like a man who was once married and has a child and is dating a new woman and he neglected to tell her about it. Especially if they were getting serious. The situations aren't exactly the same but a lot more similar than Dante and Veronica.

Again everyone agrees that Holden is wrong for judging Alyssa on her past, but Alyssa is wrong as well for not telling Holden that she had been romantically involved with other men. And even alyssa admits this which is why she apologized to him for it. I fell like you are trying to make Alyssa out to be a complete victim which is nonsense. They are both to blame and if you can't see that, you need a reality check.

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[–] Cosima324 17 years ago

She actually never lied... unless you count the sin of omission. At the playground, she didn't directly answer about virginity. And in bed, she was discussing how she searched thoroughly for him. Read between the lines and she didn't lie. She just didn't volunteer everything.

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[–] tabilogy 17 years ago

I didn't feel sorry for Holden at all. I thought he was acting like a spoiled child. I did feel for Alyssa. She genuinely loved him, it's not as if she treated him badly or cheated on him or anything. She had a past (she did apologize for letting him believe he was the only guy she'd ever been with) and it was a past that he just couldn't deal with and could not understand.

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

I watched it once again and you are absolutely right, she never lied to Holden. At the playground, she stated she'd never been attracted to men, without confirming or denying she had hetero sex, they then started discussing virginity. It does take reading between the lines, and some people on this MB seem to suck at it.

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[–] kardplayer-1 17 years ago

Of course, whether she "never lied" depends on how legalistic you are willing to be about what constitutes a lie. You can go the Bill Clinton (speaking of sluts...) "it depends on what 'is' means" route and claim that Alyssa did not lie. But I think you have to consider the context. Clinton was in a deposition, a legal proceeding, and was looking to a use a legalism to justify himself. Alyssa was talking to a close friend, someone with whom she was falling in love. She clearly understood what he wanted to know when he asked if she was still a virgin. She went out of her way to make him believe that she was a virgin as he originally intended the word, i.e. that she had never had penetrative sex with a man. To me that is a lie. You may say you differ, but I would bet that in your heart you hope that anyone who loves you would be more forthcoming in a similar situation.

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

Well, no, I'm certain she didn't lie. She said she wasn't attracted to men and decided to only to answer specific questions. He basically states that she's been only with girls, which she won't deny or confirm, and from there they move on to discuss virginity. Here's a little excerpt from the script.

ALYSSA And that's how I feel. I've never really been attracted to men. I'm more comfortable with the idea of girls.

HOLDEN Wait, wait, wait - you're still a virgin?

ALYSSA No.

HOLDEN But you've only been with girls.

ALYSSA You're saying a person's a virgin until they've had intercourse with a member of the opposite sex?

HOLDEN Isn't that the standard definition?

ALYSSA Again with the standards. I think virginity is lost when you make love for the first time.

HOLDEN With a member of the opposite sex.

ALYSSA Why? Why only then?

HOLDEN Because that's the standard.

ALYSSA So if a virgin is raped, then she's still a virgin?

HOLDEN Of course not.

ALYSSA But rape is not the standard. So she's had sex, but not the standard idea of sex. Hence, according to your definition, she'd still be a virgin.

HOLDEN Okay, I'll revise. Virginity is lost when the hymen is broken.

So she really didn't go out of her way to make him believe anything, let alone lie about her virginity. I agree that she was probably avoiding to talk about her sexual history with men but when they're in bed together he had the chance yet again and didn't make the question. You can agree that he approached her the wrong way when he brought it up at the the hockey game.

You're right, I would've felt upset had it been me finding out about her past the way he did, but there's a time for everything. As they were falling deeper in love, she was just waiting for the right moment to tell him, but was there ever going to be one? Would he ever be mature enough to understand and listen without being judgmental and act like a prude? It's complicated and hard to try and anticipate the other person's reaction, and you don't want to scare them away.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] Bitter_Almonds 17 years ago

You just posted a dialogue that negates what you're trying hard to dissuade others from inferring - that she willingly misled holden into thinking she didn't have sex with men (i.e., she lied).

Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

I don't see the part where she lies in this dialogue. Am I missing something? Holden made an assumption and probably you did too. Sucks for him to have asked the wrong questions.

Uh, I'm not trying to convince others, but it's fine if you think I do. Thanks.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] Bitter_Almonds 17 years ago

The part where she doesn't say she had sex with men, which is what holden asked when they were talking about "virginity." Her evasive answers constitute "lying" by defitinion... or any other synonym of the meaning of "lying."

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

No, she just didn't open up about everything in one conversation. Not all topics are appropriate for a first date or to discuss with someone you hardly know. He could've tried asking her later, after they fell in in love with each other.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] Bitter_Almonds 16 years ago

... or she coulda been more forthcoming later on when they developed feelings for each other, but she didn't. As far as holden goes, he thought he already knew, so why would he ask her again? That doesn't make sense. It is understood that people lie to each other in order to create a better impression, but if alyssa really loved holden, then she should've told him. Something as simple as saying, "Hey, I did have sex with guys a long time ago, but I felt at the time it wasn't my thing. I lied to you in the beginning because I didn't want you to think I'm a slut or whatever." That works far better than leading anyone on to keep thinking something completely different (i.e., a lie). Turns out she's not only a slut, but a liar as well. C'est la vie. Move on.

Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

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[–] circus14 16 years ago

But we all lie or avoid sharing information and the reason we do it should -in a relationship- matter. From the way Alyssa describes the threesome it doesn't seem as the highlight of her life.

It seems as if she had a pretty bad time with men [remember when she talks also about a guy filming her and broadcasting it to the whole college] and there are things we choose not to share because even if we have survived them and come on top of them they are in some degree painful.

If we notice the way Alyssa describes the incident [those guys really took advantage of my parents never being home] it doesn't sound as if she is reminiscing with excitement and pride on what she has accomplice or feeling that she did something pleasant that just won't look good. She feels she did something stupid and she let herself being taken advantage of and she is not too keen to discuss that, maybe she would if Holden started the discussion showing that he is interested in her life instead of him adopting the offended boyfriend stance.

---I don't know enough to be incompetent.---

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[–] micky_st 12 years ago

To be honest i feel for both of them the problems is truly they both stuffed up
i get Holden's reason for being upset *beep* if he had spend so much time trying to get a girl who he's believes is a lesbian totally not attracted to men to like him and pour his heart out to describe his feeling's for her as true love and to find out that shes been having sex with guys since high school and had two at the same time now any lover would be taken back by this..

but here's were i come to Alyssa defense she told him that she felt the need not to say anything about her having sex with men to make him feel special which is stupid but she say's sorry for that and to me that it over and done with kiss and make up everyone has selections in the closet this is where Holden's need to relised that really her past isn't any of his Biesense for the fact she love him and no one else and chosen a new path and wants to start over with him is all that matters...

Holden's in the end try to smooth things over with a threesome is props the most dumbest *beep* I've ever seen this scene show's his love for her but at the same time his ego to be a match to Alyssa sex experience the reason he felt a bit down on her level it my opinion he should have just ran to her arms considering how much he loved her and talked it out for his best friend however the same thing talk it out if he kept being an idiot drop him what a dickhead

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[–] some_witty_username 12 years ago

"changing her entire sexual orientation, alienating all her friends, a total upheavel of her life."

"True Friends" don't get disappointed in you because of your sexual orientation!! What is it with lesbians anyways? They are always on the defense... "We lost another one girls!!"

@retoronto: True friends don't have a right to be upset? They thought she lied about her sexual orientation. And it's not just lesbians that would be upset, anyone of the LGBTQ community would be upset if the thought of one of their best friends lied to them came to their minds. Scratch that - anyone whether they're gay or hetero would immediately feel disappointed if a friend lied to them about a certain aspect of their life.

DWIGHT - you ignorant slut!

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[–] retoronto 17 years ago

Andrew Dice Clay: (to a guy in the front row) How long have you been datin' her?
Guy in front row: About 4 months!
Andrew Dice Clay: Oh yeah? Tell me something... Is she good in bed???
Guy in front row: Yep!
Andrew Dice Clay: Well then... lemme ask you something! How do ya think she GOT THAT WAY!!!!

My point: Every woman... and man... has a past! That past doesn't really matter (unless there's some kinda disease involved) but it's there! And if there are any guys out there who are having the best sex of their lives with the woman their with... chances are... that woman probably learned alot of her "moves" with some other guy! Sorry dudes... she's probably not that "near virgin" ya think she is! :)

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

I just find absurd how you compare consensual sex to rape, violence and murder, in other words, giving it the same negative value. That sounds like you have some serious issue going on.

If you're in love, you want to be accepted for who you are, in spite of your flaws. And it's normal to be afraid of opening your heart. And that's what happened to Alyssa, she opened her heart and got burned. If Holden hadn't acted like an obsessed lunatic then Alyssa wouldn't have needed to lie to him. Holden was told he was making a mistake, and yet he chose to ruin the relationship. He couldn't let go of a past he wasn't a part of.

It's funny too how you bring up the "fingercuffs" nickname, you probably share Holden's idea about how she was used, when it was indeed the other way around, just like she said. Keep in mind that she does make a distinction between *beep* and "making love". Why do you think she rejected the idea of having a threesome with Holden and Banky?

Sure, feel free to disagree, but understand this, she didn't have to apologize for any of those things she did. It was her body to experiment with and her choices to make. Whether they were good or bad, they lead her to that place where she met Holden.

That being said, I don't condone promiscuity but I felt sorry for Alyssa.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

There is nothing to twist because your words are clear as day and there's no room to read between lines. You could've written it differently, but fact of the matter is that you chose three undeniable negative natural acts which you clearly put in the same category as consensual sex. You're basically implying that any person with a sex life you disapprove of is in the same category as a killer. A tad extremist, I might say.

As for what Alyssa said about looking for love, well I may or may not agree but I don't see it as rubbish only because I know that in the real world people aren't perfect, and this movie does a good job in depicting flawed human beings.

What Alyssa did and everything she went through in the past made her become the person Holden fell in love with, which is something you fail to see. You seem unable to relate to the aspect of being in love with someone. Dude, it's even funnier how you bring up porn stars and escorts into the discussion, obviously you're thinking of those when you're discussing Alyssa's sex life, that only proves true how extremist your views are.

Nothing that she did while she was with Holden demonstrates that she didn't have those values you care about so much. Alyssa was in love with him and as far as we can tell, she was faithful and devoted to the guy.

Once again, there is nothing to twist. It's just interesting how you can't even think of Holden's behaviour and the course of action he chose. After all, it was him regretting how things ended and the one uttering apologies at the end of the movie.

I wonder if you're the kind of person who can feel comfortable only when you're the most experienced one in the relationship. But hey, feel free to dismiss that as rubbish too.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Bitter_Almonds 17 years ago

Nah, man. You twisted his words - and you're still doing that in your second reply to him. You are the one making the implications for which you accuse the other guy of making with regards to acts considered as "natural." If you don't get the gist of what he stated, then you're way over your head trying to discuss this topic with him.

Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

nwavghost I'm not discussing that with you nor I intend to, he said what he said and I kind of see where he's coming from based on those personal details he chose to reveal with us. As for you, it's only logical for you to take sides with him, based on your previous posts and the crap you type every time you mention Alyssa, so don't bother.

intrepid/stupid

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[–] Puxie 16 years ago

It's not hard at all to confuse love with attention - especially when you are young.

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[–] mcgill_j 14 years ago

I will point out.. a small point I concede, as Banky would say I don't think "getting on all fours and getting filled out like an application" is really on anyone's ROAD to finding love.. or who they are.. maybe its on the rite of passages list..

but.. this really is one of those things where a guy sympathizes with Holden.. then he's a jerk and being a guy.. and.. vice versa for women...

I think though by and large you do sympahtize with Holden.. because he in.. well the LEAD character (just by screen time.. and you have alot more insight into him than any other character.. in fact.. I think you have MORE insight into Banky than Alyssa.. but that comes from Smith (a guy).. and you write what you know).

But.. I sympahtize with BOTH of them for different reasons.. but Alyssa did.. maybe she never LIED outright.. but beinv evasive is still being quite disingenuous..

Now.. with that though.. Holden really was living under the delusion of being "the only guy".. and if ONLY he would have taken Hooper's advice.. maybe he could have just been ok..

but.. I also symapthize with Banky.. who through this.. did get in the middle.. and it did open up his world, as we find out later.. but in the process lost his best friend?

I think EVERYONE in the film. lost something.. and.. gained something.. maybe Alyssa as it turned out bad.. maybe she really did open up to men, again, in her search.. that they aren't ALL bad.. Holden grew a bit.. and Banky learned something about himself and set himself on a new course... he grew as a person.. and an artist too (as did Holden).

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[–] false_impression 17 years ago

I felt sorry for both of them. Both of them found what they were looking for and lost it. But we feel more for Holden because he outwardly says in the diner that he can't figure out why he can't let Alyssa's past go. His feelings are so overwhelming that he throws his relationship away in a skewed moment of "logic", despite Silent Bob laying it out so elequently that she's not looking for a more adventurous version of Holden, she was looking for Holden. She wouldn't have upheaved her life for something she thought he could be, she did so because of who he was.

I felt sorry for Holden because his decision to bring Bankey and Alyssa together was primarily driven by his sense of sexual inadequacy, which is a feeling that percolates throughout men in the western world.

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[–] blasfemale 17 years ago

Better yet, how come no one feels sorry for the poor guy who lost his best friend and got confused (and got everyone else confused) about his sexuality, when all he really wanted to do was re-establish their relationship? I feel sorry for Banky. And he's the only one I feel sorry for.

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[–] kuroko 17 years ago

Can you really feel sorry for Banky? He had a lot to be blamed for, including this alleged confusion that arose from the course of actions he took, which were not out of selfless concern for his buddy.

It's contradictory how he befriends Alyssa at the bar after they discover she's a lesbian, to piss Holden off, and then hates her when she starts dating the guy. Yes, as a concerned friend it was okay for him to warn Holden since they didn't know her that well at first. But they fall in love and Banky is absolutely unable to feel happy for Holden, and had nothing to gain from turning the guy against Alyssa. And what was the deal with him going as far as to look for her freakin' yearbook?

He said he wanted to protect what they had been working on, but the guys were in for a fallout anyway, because they couldn't make up their minds about accepting the deal of developing that tv show.

Whether Banky was in love with the guy or not, we don't know. Their relationship was not going to change them with Alyssa out of the picture, nor Banky was going to pursue a romantic involvement with Holden anyway. He wanted for Holden to feel just as lonely, bitter and miserable as he was too. He states that everyone has an agenda, so what was his?

intrepid/stupid

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[–] wrw884 17 years ago

I didn't really feel sorry for either of them, but I could see why people may be more inclined to feel more sorry for Holden. Alyssa choose to end the relationship with Holden (with good reason), while Holden was desperately trying to make everything work to fit his skewed logic. In a way, Holden's insecurity, weakness, and irrationality of the situation allows him to be pitied more than Alyssa, who rationally chooses to leave Holden.

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[–] Senator_Corleone 17 years ago

I don't feel sorry for Holden. He had a good thing and screwed it up because *gasp* she did some weird sex stuff. He new that she was kinda crazy (they're nude painting when they first have sex). Deal with it, pussy.

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