Wait! THAT WAS RAPE? Nah, sorry, but it wasn't. - Higher Learning (1995) Discussion

[–] artfuldodger1983 17 years ago

If it was your daughter, wouldn't you call it a rape? Or would you call your little girl an overreactor who knew she wanted it? Women can change their minds, you know? Obviously you believe the stereotype that most rapes are creepy guys hiding in bushes and alleys in the middle of the night and having their way with an innocent woman. The truth is those kind of rapes are the exception, not the rule. They just get more attention because it causes a greater public outrage and sympathy than a drunk girl changing her mind. This scene portrays rape as it happens EVERY SINGLE DAY in this country. NO MEANS NO! And I do know what I'm talking about because I know several rape victims who say that this scene is about as close to reality as is cinematically possible. Yeah, I agree she shouldn't have gone up there with him in the first place and that it could have all been avoided if she had excercised the common sense of not going back to the room of a guy she just met. But that doesn't make what he did ok, and it doesn't make it any less nonconsensual.

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[–] trompos 17 years ago

If it were my daughter who went up to a room with a guy, made-out with him, willingly had him take off her panties and insert his penis in her THEN in the middle of it all said, put on a condom I would say it wasn't rape. Because IT ISN'T!

Also, please spare me the education on what "real rape" looks like. I get it, most rape is usually someone the girl knows, or date rape, yada yada, I've heard it all before, you're not blowing me away with your little known facts everyone happens to know. I say it wasn't rape because it's BS for girls to have this ridiculous "no means no" crap at their disposal whenever they feel they want to use it. If a guy is IN you and you were fine until that point and you say no, then you're a tease and you're not being raped. Rape is real, rape should not be a term thrown around by girls who either want to get money from a guy, or be the victim or whatever, SHE WAS NOT RAPED.

You asked me about my daughter (I have no children for the record) what if your SON were in that situation? A girl goes to his room willingly, takes off her panties WILLINGLY, lets him get all the way then yells rape for whatever reason. Your son then goes to jail, or perhaps a sane jury finds him innocent and he gets taken to civil court. What then?

A girl I consider oneof my best friends was raped, while she was drunk at a part. She was 17 at the time, she's 27 now. She was out cold at a party. Dumb? Yes! But she was ACTUALLY RAPED! Being a tease and crying rape when a guy doesn't stop right away at your whim is not rape, that's being a second thought whore.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!

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[–] akensy 17 years ago

trompos "Being a tease and crying rape when a guy doesn't stop right away at your whim is not rape, that's being a second thought whore."

You are the biggest hypocrite I have ever had the unfortunate chance of coming across. Your Jesus Christ signature totally goes against your hateful and mean-spirited opinions. Regardless of whether or not she willingly went up to his room with him and was choosing to have sex with him, he didn't stop when she asked.

Are you a woman? No, don't think you are. You have no idea what it's like. Would you want someone to stop having sex with you and put a condom on so you don't risk getting pregnant or some STD? I think you would. The fact that you called the character a "second thought whore" and a "tease" makes me think you have a problem with women and with boundaries, and have probably been "teased" by some other girl in the past and are holding a grudge. If that's the case, smart girl.

Go ahead and reply back and go off on me like the defensive little know it all you think you are. How old are you anyway? Seriously, grow up.

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[–] trompos 17 years ago

Clearly he should have stopped to put on a condom, I even mentioned that in my OP. My point is that she went from a girl that wanted it (and please don't say she didn't) to a girl screaming rape in 2 seconds. And no, you can't say you want it, then change your mind in the middle of the act and still call it rape. It's not rape it's BS.

Secondly, PLEASE don't try to read me. Every idiot who disagrees with a person on IMDb wants to become some kind of detective, or profiler who suddenly knows you and your life story based on a post. SHUT UP! You don't know me, no, I've never been teased, no, I don't hold a grudge against any woman, you're not good at this. You're a fool.

Lastly, PLEASE stop the "you're a bad Christian" spiel. It's old, it's lame, it's tired and unoriginal. Really! What about my post was hateful? You idiots throw that term around so easily, tell me what could be construed as hateful in anything I wrote. Christians CAN opine on such things, and we don't have to go around saying ONLY nice things about everything. What is this view of Christians as these silent inoffensive spineless wimps sitting in a corner afraid to say anything or it might hurt someone's feelings. Nothing I said was un-CHristian in the least. Calling you an idiot and a moron, perhaps may be un-Chrisitan, but then again, it's the truth, so that's a tough one.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!

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[–] artfuldodger1983 17 years ago

Ok Mr. Chrisian, I'm not trying to read you, but hows this. Would Jesus Christ have told that guy to keep going with her? Say "Go on she knows she wants it."? Not the Jesus I've studied. And no, you didn't say anything hateful in your post, just insensitive. But thats besides the point. And if it was my son in that situation, I would beat his ass and the call the cops myself. And I don't take that lightly at all because I've done time. Just finished 2 1/2 years in February. Now granted, I think it is a TRAVESTY that I know men who have had completely consensual sex with a girl and when they're done she says "Pay me 80 bucks or I'm gonna say you raped me". That's wrong, THAT'S an insult to women who have been raped. And I'm sure it happens a lot more often than most people are aware of. And I also am against a girl deciding months later that she was raped. But if a girl changes her mind halfway through or after intercourse has started and says STOP or says NO! and is fighting and kicking and screaming, that makes it nonconsensual, and that makes it rape.

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[–] trompos 17 years ago

Like I siad before, he SHOULD HAVE STOPPED! And the way the movie twisted the situation, it could be seen as rape. In the real world that would be slightly different and ALL BS!

Jesus would say that sex outside of marriage is sinful, so your point is mute. We're not really discussing this as a WWJD kind of thing, let's be adults about this shall we?

No you wouldn't call the cops on your son, sorry, that's just crapre talking.

So what were you in for? I knew I was right about you not getting any in a while, go check the response I left to the "getting raped makes you gay" thread.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!

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[–] Thurgood_Jenkins 17 years ago

"Jesus would say that sex outside of marriage is sinful, so your point is mute."

The word you are looking for is "moot," not mute. Don't act like this was a typo. I see you like to call other people idiots and morons when they make similar mistakes (as well as in instances where they point out your hypocrisy or just disagree with you). Pot meet kettle.

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[–] trompos 17 years ago

I've addressed this already when you pathetically brought it up on the other thread. I'll repeat what I said there. It was a misused word, but a train of thought error, I'll take the hit for it. No problem. I find it funny that you've got a total of 3 posts on this SN, and 2 of them are directed at me. Is that you Jdun212? I think it might be.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!

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[–] Thurgood_Jenkins 17 years ago

So it is "pathetic" when I point out your improper use of the language, but perfectly alright when you call out others for bad spelling or grammar? That makes no sense. I also like how you said you would "take the hit for it," but then still tried to make an excuse (and a bad excuse at that).

I am an infrequent poster on IMDB, but thanks for putting your paranoia on full display. Face it, you make a lot of enemies on this site because of your condescending and caustic posts.

Congratulations on your great life, but it is obvious that your constant need to reference your success and the superficial things at the expense of others is a "pathetic" (your word) attempt to compensate for your own insecurities.

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[–] dazzling_dreamer_2 17 years ago

Tell me honestly. If it were your daughter who may have taken a man to her bed and decided that yes she was going to have sex with him, but as an educated and aware young woman demands a condom (which the guy does not have and therefore, wants to stop) would you really call her a tease and tell her she deserved it if the guy continued to do exactly what he wanted with her? Whilst she was asking him to stop because she was aware of the reprecussions of having sex without a condom?

That's definitely rape in any book.

But He's way too young!

Yep, all 18-year-olds are virgins.

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[–] gonzoforsherriff 17 years ago

I will say that the modern proliferation of rape cases is becoming steadily out of control, and that in some instances they are completely fabricated stories that are created either out of revenge, spite, or the need for attention. Now, being that rape is a horrible crime, it is a tragedy that there are even SOME cases that are false when compared to the real ones. I will not agree with you entirely, but I will say that I at least see what you're trying to say even if you did express it rather poorly. There are many different levels to what is and is not rape, this is true, but to say that "No means no." is foolish. At the same time, I will agree that the aforementioned words by themselves don't constitute rape, at least to me, but if after the words are said the person in question doesn't stop or even starts to get a bit rough, then THAT has certainly crossed the boundary from consensual sex to the beginnings of what could be called rape. The actual title of "rape," I think, should only be attached when it goes beyond the previously stated actions. But there are many that would disagree to my theory of what rape is, and I am fine with that. That is just my personal version of what I think "rape" is. I don't think it to be fair that a person be thrown under the bus for something that was not really illegal per se, but more so the actions of someone who isn't really that considerate or was too drunk to really think %100, as apposed to the actions of a sadistic piece of trash who has ZERO consideration for what their actions will do to the other person and also no real regard for the consequences of those actions.

"Buy the ticket, take the ride!" - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
www.myspace.com/deathbycolostomybag

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[–] dazzling_dreamer_2 17 years ago

Men get drunk all the time. Should they be raped too? Because they're too drunk to know whats going on? At least the girl had sense enough to ask for a condom when she was barely coherent about what was going on.

And believe me, there are plenty of women in this world who HAVE been raped. No one does a damned thing about it because one or two of every ten women who claim rape have fabricated it. In my country, the cops have YOUR attitude. The first question they ask a woman who has been raped is, "What were you wearing?"

In other words, the way a woman dressed is what provoked a man to rape her. And I'm guessing with your statement, you probably agree with this statement.

Well, let me tell you a story and you tell me if it provoked rape. My friend was breast feeding her baby boy behind a CLOSED door and in complete privacy. Her husband called a few of his partners over and she didn't realise he had so she just kept the door closed in case he needed to walk in for something whilst he worked.

One of the guys walked in looking for a bathroom and saw her breast feeding. She yelped, gently placed her baby down and clutched her shirt. He WAITTED OUTSIDE HER HOUSE until her husband came to take the baby out for a walk on the stroller. And then, using the window, broke in and RAPED her.

He has made no attempt to deny the story.

All he has had to say is, 'The b itch provoked me. So she had it coming.' And no one believes her now. Even though she has never told a lie in her life. It's so obvious she's been raped with the bruises and scratches. I try to help her. But how much can I help her? The only thing that will help her keep safe? Is if that bastard is behind bars!

So. Was this a case of fabrication too according to your standards?

It's so cool for men to sit there and say: No means no. How silly. Ofcourse no doesn't mean no! It means hell yes, *beep* me!

Try being in the life a rape victim being accused of lying because she's up against a man. You will enter a hell where THAT man owns not only your soul but your body.

Trauma? HAH! Try Torture, and destruction beyond belief.

But He's way too young!

Yep, all 18-year-olds are virgins.

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[–] gonzoforsherriff 17 years ago

No, I fear you've misunderstood what I was attempting to say. I wasn't attempting to say that a lot of cases of rape are fabricated, only some, I am all too well aware that most cases of rape are true stories and are horrible ones at that. I have zero respect for rapists and pedophiles, and in my opinion they should all be castrated, and then executed like the scum they are! I was merely attempting to say that I think that there are levels between what could be construed as rape and what is actual rape. I have nothing but the utmost respect for women, and I am %100 behind the rights of rape victims. However, I don't think that someones name should be dragged through the mud and labeled as a predator till it has been proved that it really happened. That is not to say that the woman in question lied about it, but it's of the same arena as murder wherein people may think you did it, but till it's been proved should you go down for it? You and I are of the same viewpoint, even if my way of conveying it is not exactly how you put it.

"Buy the ticket, take the ride!" - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
www.myspace.com/deathbycolostomybag

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[–] artfuldodger1983 17 years ago

Ok this is all getting a little too serious for an innocuous movie post, but I'll put in a couple more cents worth. As far as the scene portrayed in the movie, that WAS rape, and I was merely trying to make trompos aware of that fact and in the process point out his own insensitivity, ignorance and hypocrisy. I am a man, and have never been raped or sexually abused and therefore I cannot EMPATHIZE with rape victims but they do have my SYMPATHY. And believe me they have all of it. Women who have been raped are scarred for life. That being said, women who fabricate rape stories (for whatever personal reasons) need to be locked up because A.) It is the biggest insult possible to women who have been raped and B.) It has consequences for men that are probably way beyond what she expected would happen to him that will never go away. Now there are probably some gray areas. But lets clearly establish that a woman who is kicking and screaming no and fighting while having intercourse is being raped. Thats what happens in the scene being discussed. Therefore that is rape. Lets establish that having sex with an incoherent or unconscious woman is rape. Like what happens in one of the last scenes in the movie Kids with Chloe Sevigny. Therefore that is rape as well. Lets establish that a woman being compliant during intercourse only under the threat of violence or physical harm is being raped too. Lets establish that a young child being taken advantage of sexually by an adult can be called rape. Now we can debate symantics and legalities forever, and never get anywhere. But I believe that this is really a moral issue and that what this all really boils down to is "Is it Right or is it Wrong?" Now I am all for constitutional rights and due process and innocent until proven guilty. I have been arrested and served time myself for misdemeanor aggravated menacing, and I actually did what I was accused and suspected of, so I would say I can appreciate those things more so than your average American. Now regardless of what you call it, aggravated menacing or as I call it "a mean spirited prank gone wrong and taken a little too seriously" (that was in my official statement), what I did was still wrong. So there may be ambiguity over what constitutes what and what Websters definition is, but when it comes to right and wrong everything is black and white, clear as crystal. Has a Line been Crossed? And in regards to the scene that is the basis for this thread, it has.

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[–] law573 15 years ago

Wow there is a lot of stupid here

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[–] MonopolisticVision 15 years ago

She did want it the start... but as soon as she realised he had no intention of putting on a condom, she refused to proceed. He, however, ignored her and carried on, indulging in his own desires. That's rape. /thread.

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[–] patronizing_bunnyrabbits 16 years ago

There was an actual case where a woman being raped by a stranger begged the man to put on a condom. He complied. Because of that one fact, she was NOT able to charge him with rape since she was able to dictate (at least partially) the conditions under which it would occur. Kristy Swanson's character was not able to dictate such conditions.

Basically, Trompos, if you're okay having sex with women who are crying & screaming in protest, be my guest. Have fun in jail & don't drop the soap.

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] LibraSuVirgo 17 years ago

It was rape. At any point a female makes it clear it's not going to happen, whether it's because she changed her mind or wants him to wear protection, and the man goes on ahead, it's rape. Granted, he was drinking and maybe that lent to what happened with his judgement call, but still...

It doesn't matter if a woman intends to have sex and then changes her mind. If she's naked on a bed then says "no", then too bad...sucks for the guy but whatever. That's really not the point. Feeling "teased" or actually being teased doesn't give a man the right to take what he wants anyway.

I realize she was drunk, but women need to stop putting themselves in situations like that in the first place. I myself am a woman and always kept rape as a very real plausibility, and fortunately always had the presence of mind to not be a teenaged drinker or get myself into a situation around men that might turn ugly. There have been times when I was with my friends who were only all to willing to go off with a strange man towards a secluded area who was obviously older, or go into a bedroom with a guy giving him the impression she wanted sex, and have steered my ownself clear. I wish women, in general, could become more aware of that in the first place. We can be a pretty naive bunch, especially when we're young. Luckily, I was not.

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[–] F6Pilot 17 years ago

I think a judge would call it rape.

I think a jury of 12 probably would not.

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[–] badmofu 17 years ago

The OP should be raped by a big buck in jail hardcore.

With gas at $5.00 per gallon, I piss on Blu-ray.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] flowery_meerkat 17 years ago

hope you don't have any daughters,or sons for that matter coz you wouldn't raise them right.

She said stop repeatedly and he didn't.If you can justify what he did you are sick.

S O C H I Y

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] flowery_meerkat 17 years ago

what bothers you more...the fact that she wanted to stop in the middle...
or that she didn't let him finish and get her pregnant or STD issues???

S O C H I Y

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[–] axiomattic 17 years ago

Trompos you're a sick mind. You're the kind of person I am afraid of. You could just take out a sniper rifle and shoot people because you can't cope with your own contradictions.

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[–] euphgod2006 16 years ago

I actually watched this movie this past sunday 8-14-08 on tv for the first time since I was 11 years old back in '95. Of course you get a different perspective of the whole movie in the eyes 24 year old vs. an 11 year old. With that being said, the whole rape scene (as some may want to call while other may still not consider it rape)is somewhat still vague and leaves us with unanswered questions, whether to question the whole incident as rape or not. As was mentioned many times in this discussion, I blame it on bad writing and directing. There is no doubt that this topic still remains a sensitive and controversial one especially for me, knowing actuall rape victims, or for anyone out there who is a victim. I want to first stress that if anyone has plans or intentionally wants to drink, especially for the females out there, keep your guard up, keep a weapon... pepper spray... on hand or take some "reliable and trustworthy" friends along with you who know your limits and who will have no problem cock blocking your potential hookup that night if they know it may lead to trouble, especially if it is your first time meeting them (leaving with a phone # doesn't hurt, for maybe a sober hookup, if there's no contact after that, then it wasn't meant to be and from that you can gather what his intentions were that night). I also want to stress that from previous cases of rape, seen through news reports or read from various sources, the rapist "most" of the time has intentions of raping his victim/getting what he wants and that is it. What I take from this scene in the movie, or maybe i'm looking too deep into this, is there was obviously an attraction that ran deeper than the drunken hookup that led to this debacle. After what happened, Billy was at least torn up over situation, he even tried to chase her down, and made an effort to call her. This tells me that there was obviously an attraction between the two that unfortunately was ruined by his judgement due to drunkeness. The look they gave each other after the fight outside the frat house said it all. He even defended her to some extent after all the frat brothers gave him accolades for his "conquest", admitting that he was torn up over what he did and that he probably had no intentions to do it. Again, I might be looking into it too much, but in conclusion there was obviously an attraction between the two that was consensual to some extent, and was screwed up over one drunken night just because he wouldn't use a condom. Would one consider this rape? To some extent yes, but mostly not, it depends on your definition of rape. The writers should have shined a little bit more light on this situation and put closure on it; what would have billy and kristin said to each other if her roomate gave her the phone? If there was a deeper attraction with him and her, what would have happened if kristin was a little bit more open, talked it out about what happened and go on from there and learn from the mistake? I feel that both of them should have been a little bit more receptive and mature about this incident. He obviously didn't want to let her go after that night, even though he was drunk and horny as hell and she was so torn up that she had to shut him and the whole incident out completely escaping from the problem. But that is freshmen for you at this so called "Columbia University"

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[–] 16 years ago

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