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What is something really dark from Star Wars, but gets ignored?

posted 5 years ago by TMC-4 (20489)
18 replies | jump to latest

https://www.quora.com/What-is-something-really-dark-from-Star-Wars-but-gets-ignored/answer/Jon-Mixon-1

The Jedi, the nominal heroes of the various stories, are religious fanatics - They are deeply religious and fanatical warriors who are almost never shown questioning their faith. They are certain of their “correctness”, and operate in that manner throughout the franchise’s narrative universe.

The Jedi are surprisingly blase about a variety of moral offenses despite being religious individuals - Slavery, exploitation, murder, even genocide barely seem to register with the Jedi even though they are morally wrong in the majority of faiths. Unless the matter directly concerns them or their interests, they usually just ignore it.

The Empire didn’t have to destroy Alderaan, but did it anyway - The Death Star could made the same point by destroying one of the other planets or moons in Alderaan’s solar system. It’s unclear that a number of world which can sustain life are present in the Star Wars universe , so destroying one simply to “test” a weapon of mass destruction was either insanely stupid or simply cartoonishly evil.

Lando Calrissian had no idea what was going to happen to Han Solo and the rest of them when he betrayed them to the Empire - There was no proof that they weren’t going to be killed immediately, nor that the Empire would have honored whatever “deal” they made with him. Frankly his decision was particularly shortsighted, and could resulted in the deaths of everyone, including himself.

It’s never made exactly clear how Rey survived from being a toddler to an adult woman - While the film seems to indicate that she scavenges parts from crashed spacecraft for a living, that really doesn’t seem to be too profitable of an occupation in a universe where large military space vessels are abandoned by their former owners. She doesn’t seem to have any friends or family on Jakku and no explanation is given as how she wasn’t/isn’t exploited by the various bad actors there. A number of inferences could be drawn from the narrative, and none of them are pleasant.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Were you for some time ignorant of those evident facts? You poor soul!

[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

I've been going on about how much I dislike the Jedi for decades now.

[–] CoriSCapnSkip (2755) 3 years ago

Besides the aspects you mention, the Jedi were incredibly anti-family. I didn't really think of this until after seeing The Phantom Menace for the second time. Anakin is dismissed as being "too old" for Jedi training. The Jedi wanted children who had little to no time to form attachments, which would mean snatching them from families incredibly young. I wonder if any families had the option of saying no or if removal of certain children was simply mandated by the Jedi. How powerful were they supposed to have been? Would they wave their hand and do the Jedi persuasion on reluctant parents? Once Anakin leaves it's implied he won't see his mother again, and as a matter of fact it seems he doesn't (if no meeting took place between episodes I and II). It also means the Jedi were programming the Padawans to never fall in love or have their own families--moreso as the Jedi order was at the time all male and the Padawans had little to no outside contact. Of course, when Anakin secretly married and started a family it proved disastrous.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 3 years ago

I don't think they're forcing people to be trained. If a child is identified as being force sensitive they probably offer and recommend training them but don't require it. They weren't interested in training Anakin at all and he had the high potential of any identified user. It seems if a force sensitive isn't trained they really can't do much with the power anyway. Maybe be really good at playing cards.

Luke/Leia before Obi Won couldn't do much of anything force related. Anakin before Qui-gon was only able to race with hyper fast reflexes that other non-humans could do without the force.

To me it seemed as if a force user still needed years of training before being able to correctly and effectively wield a lightsaber and use telekinetic abilities.

It wasn't until those garbage sequels that characters seemed to be magically blessed with powers and lightsaber wielding abilities.

Prequels-
Obi-Won: If you spent as much time practicing your saber skills as you do on speeders you'd rival Master Yoda.
Implying that time and effort spent practicing saber combat makes you better.

Sequels-
Rey is the best light saber duelist in history after picking one up.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

To disagree with a few of your points:

The Jedi take young children away from their families and start training them when they're far too young to understand what's going on or consent to become Jedi, and train them out of the normal human need for attachment to others. Anakin wouldn't be the only psychological mess in the Order, humans need attachments. So yes, that could be called "forcing people to be trained".

I think both Luke and Leia were unconsciously using the Force without realizing that before "ANH". Luke was using it to bullseye womp rats, and Leia was a diplomat who didn't realize she she wasn't just a good talker, she actually had power over weak minds (this is BTW why she kept her Jedi abilities quiet later).

I think a person can learn to Use The Force fairly quickly, but it does take years or decades of training to learn to use the Force wisely, ethically, and appropriately for the culture you're dealing with. I mean, Luke only had a few hours of training from Ben and a few days from Yoda, and he could lift spaceships and duel with a Sith Lord. Yes, he failed at both, but not by much, pretty good for a few days!

Regarding Rey's ability to fight: She was an young woman living independently on a lawless planet, to survive on her own she'd have to be able fight like a demon, before she ever picked up a light saber. I'm also okay with Finn picking up a light saber and using it to fight, he couldn't wield it like a Jedi and use it to block blaster bolts, but was a fit young man with plenty of weapons training, and there's no reason he couldn't use it to fight another regular human.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 3 years ago

1. Finn could use it to fight another regular no problem but he used it with success against Kylo which should have mopped the floor with both him and Rey as he'd been trained for years and was a powerful force user.

2. After a few hours with Ben Luke couldn't do much of anything. After a few days with Yoda could struggle with telekinesis and use the force to aid his physical movements(speed, agility, jumping, flips) and could use a sabre competently at best, but not even close to the level we see from Vader or Knights in the prequels.

Yoda warns Luke not to go because Yoda know he's going to get mopped by Vader and most likely captured by the Emperor. Yoda knew Luke needed far far more training to even have a chance at confronting Vader.

Yet Rey with no training uses force powers and has sabre combat ability better than Kylo.

4. As far as movie canon goes I didn't see the Jedi stripping kids from their parents. All we see is Qui-gon offering a better life to Anakin. Anakin had a choice, Qui-gon never forced him. Even then the council turns him away. They don't seem desperate to train or kill him before he can get dangerous. They don't seem interested in him at all and I'd say that's how they would treat most that were too old to be converted or refused to join them.

As far as brain washing the kids at a young age I guess that is a valid argument but I'd say the parents have a choice if they want to give their child to them. I'm assuming life as a Jedi was pretty good. They don't seem to need for much, have very high status, and grow to become some of the most powerful beings in the Galaxy.

3. Good points on Luke and Leia but it supports my claim that an untrained force sensitive isn't all that dangerous to the Jedi. Without training they might be better than most at debate, negotiation, pod racing, gambling, and skilled shooting.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Regarding the speed with which Rey and Luke learned the Force, well Luke some abilities that could fairly be called superpowers in a few days, so I maintain that it's possible for someone with serious Force abilities to learn Force skills very fast... but it will take them years and years to learn to use them wisely. Luke learned some Force skills fast, and immediately used them unwisely.

And if Rey learned faster than Luke, well, she was in a situation where she had to learn immediately or die, which Luke was not, and anyway she seemed brighter than Luke. And considering her background, she was probably used to fighting for her life, while he was not.

But the big thing is the Jedi, Anakin is given a choice and so is his mother, but they're both told that they wouldn't see her again, and anyway Anakin is much older than most of the kids taken into the Jedi order. Anakin is maybe 10 years old, old enough to understand that he's agreeing to become a Jedi and to abandon his mother, but not old enough to understand all the ramification. But Yoda's little pupils are much younger, like 5 years old, they didn't give informed consent to ditch their families to be part of an organization whose ends they don't understand! Maybe their families consented, I hope they thought that giving up a kid to the Jedi and never seeing them again was the right and honorable thing to do, but the fact is we have no idea whether the parents have the right to refuse the Jedi on their kid's behalf. I hope they do, I hope the galaxy is full of people who use the Force in other ways, and not Jedi order washouts who didn't make Knight and who wish they were still with their families. We don't know.

But really, the Jedi's insistent on no personal attachments is really horrible. Humans are social animals, we are meant to attach to friends and lovers and families and communities, and if we lose all attachments we get crazy and like I said Anakin probably isn't the only mess in the orders. I've always thought that the Jedi we see in the Prequels is a fading and failing order ripe to fall, the humans at least are psychologically wonked, they're heavily politicized, rule-bound, unpopular, and I'd bet they're a shadow of what they once were.

Edit: Where does the idea that an untrained Force Sensitive being a threat to the Jedi come from? I mean a Force prodigy like Anakin, Luke, or Rey might be, but they have unusual power levels.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 3 years ago

I'd say Luke was fighting for his life against Vader. And again Rey had no training and had more power than Luke after working with 2 Masters.

The equivalency would be Luke taking down Vader at first Death Star. Actually less cause he actually was being trained before they arrived.

I'd say the Jedi in the prequels are at the top of their power. Mace and Yoda are both strong enough to nearly defeat Palps and he was the top of the long line of Rule of Two. Also consider Obi-Won and Anakin were both incredibility powerful for their age.

One of the key purposes of the clone wars was to thin out and drastically weaken the Jedi. Palps knew taking over the senate would be a chess match, but toppling the Jedi was a much more combative campaign.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

I really, really think the Jedi in the prequels are at the end of their power, they've strayed so far from the path of righteousness that they're happy to use clone slaves as cannon fodder, and the Sith Lord plays them all for a bunch of fools. Could a Sith have clouded the perceptions of the entire Jedi Council when they were at their height? I say no, I say that when they were at their peak, their connection with the Force was so pure and true that they would have let the Force itself guide their actions... not politics and rules and freezing themselves out of any emotional connection with the people they're supposed to protect.

Anyway, you've left one thing out of your consideration of whether Rey could beat Darth Emo: The fact that he's a goddamn weenie.

Palpatine and Vader's firmness of purpose gave them a strong connection with the Dark Side, while Darth Whiner was only strong with the Dark Side in fits, before he went back to whining and feeling sorry for himself and trying to act tough, so Broom Boy from "The Last Jedi" could probably have beaten him seven times out of ten. So I have no idea if you're one of the Disney-haters that's driven everyone sane away from the Disney Trilogy boards, but if you are, please be aware that I'm no Disney film fan. I just think the Hater guys are bashing the wrong main character.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

In addition to the Jedi wanting to rip tiny children away from their families and training the basic human need for psychological attachment out of them, there's also the vast economic inequalities in the Star Wars universe. AND institutionalized slavery.

I mean look at the first half hour of the first film, we go from a universe of shiny spaceships and soldiers and Lords and Princesses, to a dirtwater farm where the farmer has to buy broken down crap off the Jawas, and beg his nephew to give up on his education so he can provide free labor and keep the intergenerational poverty going. And then in the prequels, we find out that Tattooine has or had slavery, and nobody in the Galactic center is ever seen anything to do about it, not even to the point of freeing a woman who's given birth to a fatherless Force prodigy. It continued in "Clone Wars" and beyond, even during the Republican days, Coruscant had a literal underworld where crime thrives and nobody ever sees the sun. And it continues in "The Mandalorian", which is largely set in the lawless underworld that stretches across most of the Outer Rim.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

How about the ethics of having a Clone Army? Human beings who are perfectly sentient, but who are created to serve as cannon fodder, who don't have the legal right to leave the army or disobey orders, who are essentially slaves? And the Jedi are totally okay with using a slave army?

One of the more interesting thing about "Clone Wars" was that we got to see the subculture the clones developed, with the "brothers" relationship between them all, and their attempts to form individual identities with their nicknames and haircuts and tattoos. But if anyone in the Jedi order ever mentioned granting them some human rights when the war was over, I missed it.

[–] moviechatterer (16326) 3 years ago

good one. sounds worse than the other examples
was this the 2nd prequel?
i think ive seen that once and remember zero about it.
might be time to watch again

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

We saw the origin of the clone armies during "Attack of the Clones", and how they were used against the Jedi during "Revenge of the Sith", and they were supporting characters in the "Clone Wars" TV show, which I regard as totally canonical, and now the "Bad Batch" series on Disney Plus. I've been watching "Clone Wars" on Disney Plus, I missed a lot of episodes when it was shown on cable, and it's great!

A few episodes of "Clone Wars" centered on clone the clone characters who worked closely with Anakin, and in one, our clone soldiers run across a fellow clone who's left the army, married, had a farm of his own, and had children. They're horrified, they regard him as a deserter at first, because they've had loyalty to the military and obedience built into their very personalities. But the episode shows that the clones not just sentient, but capable of complete independence, same as any other human... but they have no legal or human rights, and nobody in power ever tries to free them or get them legal freedoms. Even the do-gooding Jedi use them as canon fodder, they fight alongside their clones and are nice enough personally, but they never consider the ethics of using sentient slaves.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

The aspects of the Jedi that are being discussed here are from the prequels, and don't really have anything to do with Star Wars (1977). But, if we take all the movies as an over-arching story arc, then I think it's pretty clear that the Jedi Order's arrogance and hubris in the prequel trilogy played a big part in their own downfall and 'fall from grace.' The few remaining Jedi would have needed to do some serious soul-searching.

[–] thingmakersback (1444) 3 years ago

After the first of the sequel trilogy - nothing original but watchable - I was hoping I saw where it might be going. Luke, as we saw him at the end had clearly withdrawn and I hoped he was going to intervene only to the extent of making sure that there were no more Jedi. I figured it made as much sense as anything in the Star Wars universe that without Jedi there would be no Sith and the sentient races of the galaxy would be better off without either.

All other points made about dark elements are also perfectly reasonable if not particularly surprising.

[–] ProgsReturn (2232) 3 years ago

I thought of Ben in the cantina, he could have used a Jedi mind trick to stop the 2 pirates harassing Luke,just like he did to the stormtroopers a bit earlier. Instead he takes an arm off.