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caste system / wealth / intelligence / weight / parallels

posted 3 years ago by 123Guy (7846)
66 replies | jump to latest

Personal local observations about the above. its interesting to me to see repeated classifications within our world that are what they are because, well, that's just how it works. Birds fly, fish swim sort of deal.
This is sure to trigger people in every place in life, but hear me out as REAL WORLD OBSERVABLE catagorizations you could easily do/see yourself.

For reference, I am in the middle. middle class, probably the lower end of that, income barely above what I have seen listed as a poverty level, yet I save well, think, plan, so I am doing okay financially. Not brag, just wanted the reader to know I am not on either end of this spectrum. Wealthy would call me poor, lower waged would call me well off. So, I'm not pushing any side of agenda, just observing.

EVERYONE KNOWS (so I am not biasing here) that WALMART is kinda looked at as dirty, cheap, and not the first place the rich would go to shop.
Opposite side of that, WHOLE FOODS is more pricey, (this has changed a lot since Amazon took over FYI) not a place people making less money would go too often. Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions, lets focus on the majority section for discussion, and not nit pick the side tracks, please.

I can and do shop at both and could create statistical counts, verifiable by living FACTS in reality, and not bias or subjective perspective.
These are not judgements, simply facts, and everyone is on their own walk in life, I'm not bragging up or punching down anyone for anything. Even though some will post here, after being offended, that I am running people down. Can't please everyone. Ever.

What I am trying to do is ask and point out some obvious things.
With all that disclaimer out of the way... let's proceed...

I postulate a CASTE SYSTEM will always exist simply because we are not all born with the same mental capacity, and education, although effective, can not correct this.

This leads to varieties in wealth and health, and perhaps other parallels I have not noticed.
Back to those stores...

At Whole Foods, I will notice nicer(expensive)/cleaner vehicles in the parking lot, mercedes, range rovers, porsches, etc, much less beat up, rusting pickups, or tiny cars. Inside, the majority of shoppers (not ALL, obviously) are of a healthy weight, and MOST are masked up, and well kempt, respectful.

At Walmart, the expected opposite. This is what I observe every time I visit these places, so, my observations are not "wrong", just reality. Walmart has dirtier cars, beat up, crashed and dented. Inside the majority of shoppers, say maybe 75% in my area, are obviously overweight to an unhealthy level, and most not wearing masks*. The people are less kempt, more rude.
* I'm aware mask mandates are dropping... hmmm... yet the "intelligent/wealthy/healthy" set are still masking? something to think about... who do you follow? :)

Back to the intelligence/caste connection...

Everyone knows we are not all born equal intelligence, and can never actually be equal. For the spectrum, some are born with mental handicaps where they can barely function normally, others are born with brains on levels that sometimes it seems hard from them to dumb things down for the rest of us. Probably Einstein, maybe Musk, you can find them by their outlandish achievements.

Knowing we will never be equal in intelligence, I postulate that intelligence sets up a standard path of wealth, health and related weight, and less intelligence parallels the opposite of that: less wealth, less health probably due to weight (yes, otter, that again).
A mentally challenged person USUALLY doesn't become a brain surgeon, and a super smart person rarely excepts a job cleaning toilets. I think all that should be obvious to everyone.

Can one change these paths? Of course, and we see it all the time... someone switching lanes.

Bottom line is, there are things related to the class or caste we are in, that urge us in a direction: I make less money, THEREFORE I should choose CHEAPER foods, probably less healthy options, making me heavier. Or am I smart enough to notice this, and work to do it differently?
On paper, I shouldn't afford to go to whole foods, yet when I did - to eat healthier - I discovered the cost was not as bad as I expected.... so, bananas are a few cents more... am I not PAYING for better health, as opposed to paying cheaper for worse health?? What cost my health if I can affect it myself for a few extra pennies? (dont go off on bananas, twas just an example and not a discussion about organic etc)

So, CASTE will always exist because we are not all born with equal intelligence which usually leads to wealth which allows better health.
The less intelligent don't make as much money leading to less healthy purchase choices, and worse health, sometimes even obesity.

Born intelligence levels can not be adjusted. Therefore caste will always exist.
In my observations and opinions.

[–] Quasimodo (16388) 3 years ago

Are you sure you aren't Theman18 ?

[–] actionkamen (23176) 3 years ago

TheMan123.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

Hahahaa ok it was a little long, thanks to all the disclaimers one must do now, but at least I stay on point

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Do you realize that a lot of the point you make hear back up my point, the one you refused to listen to in the other thread?

Yes, money correlates with good health. Money doesn't buy you good health directly, but it does buy you medical care, gym memberships and yoga classes, free time in which to exercise and release stress, good nourishing food instead of the crap they sell at Wal-Mart, plus education, travel, and the resulting level of sophistication. And that's why I said that if you want to get people healthier en masse, support "Living Wage" laws. In the real world, money correlates with health, and the poor are dying by inches and are old by fifty, and that includes a diet stuffed with high-fructose corn syrup and other deadly additives... because they don't have the time and money for anything else.

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

^^ This.

Also, poorer neighborhoods tend to lack stores with healthy food, gyms, good heathcare facilities, well-funded quality schools, etc..

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

Pure Nonsense…
I work in one of the poorest, most transient and overrun by homeless US Congressional Districts in The States, I’m in ‘the hood’ every day

There are gyms, good schools with fine teachers, fruit and vegetable stands, clinics, supermarkets full of meat and dairy and hospitals within minutes

Where do you live and earn?

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

And that means that every single poor neighborhood has all these services and that the people who live there can afford to use them. Of course.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

We’re not dealing in ‘absolutes’ here, but people with low expectations usually wind up with nothing and that’s on them, not on the rest of us

As to affording services you can rest assured that even the poverty stricken areas I’ve seen here in New York receive a constant flow of free food, educational programs, camps and clubs for kids, free eyeglasses, mental and physical health clinics, rent assistance, substance counseling, child care and so on…

NYC spends hundreds of millions a year supporting the needy

Don’t encourage the ‘Poor me, I’m a victim’ mindset, it’s foolish and defeatist.

[–] sslssg (35205) 3 years ago

I usually can see where you are coming from, but not here.

60% of Americans are one paycheque away from homelessness. Sure, some of that is from buying things they can't afford, but a lot of that is also from a system that doesn't work. Why are there so many homeless in these neighbourhood? Gyms, and fruit stands are great if you can afford them. I would not call myself poor at all, but the cost of groceries lately has gone up so much, it really hurts the wallet. Imagine you're on food stamps. Millions of Americans work full time hours and still need government assistance. No one. Not even someone working at McDonalds should have to rely on help if they are working 35 hours a week. Yet the system encourages us to think that these people deserve to be in poverty because they don't have an education. It's not a victim mindset, it's how do you go to school when you are working one full time job to afford rent and another to pay for food and clothing, possibly a bus pass, and on top of that pay for the school that you are trying to attend? The average cost of a secondary education in the US is 10k a year. Even trying to learn a trade can cost up to 14k a year.

I'm ranting a little here but income inequality is real, it's a problem, and it's not going anywhere. https://time.com/5888024/50-trillion-income-inequality-america/

I just have seen how quickly people can lose everything, and it can happen to almost anyone.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

Who deserves your money?

[–] sslssg (35205) 3 years ago

That's a really loaded question. I mean what is my money?

We could say that my money is the money that I earn for the job I do. Great. But who decides what my job is worth? This is where is gets tricky. I can dictate that I am worth x amount, but if no one is willing to pay it, then I'm not really worth that amount. Minimum wage has been eroding for years. Minimum wage is worth less now than it was in 1968. The push for $15 is still below the poverty line. So are CEOs entitled to a share of my money? Shareholders? CEO compensation has grown 1,322% since 1978, while typical worker compensation has risen just 18%. In 2020, CEOs of the top 350 firms in the U.S. made $24.2 million, on average — 351 times more than a typical worker. How is one person worth 351 times more than the people who keep the business going? I'm not against CEOs and Executives making more, they should, but what's wrong with double? Maybe 10 times more?

I don't mind higher taxes if I'm getting something from them. Income tax rates are pretty similar between Canada and the US, but my taxes include health care. Sure that means that my taxes might be paying for someone else's wheelchair, but that's how it works, and someone else might have contributed to my chemo therapy. It keeps it affordable for everyone.

I'm also not against the idea of a UBI. We live in a community. If people in my community are struggling to survive, they are going to do what they can to. Crime rates go up, health decreases, addictions, I mean there are so many issues with poverty and the programs to help with them cost billions more than UBI would.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

Those are all good points and I am not opposed to taxes and the benefits they provide to the needy. However, as you pointed out, there are many programs existing already doing just that. No matter how many new taxes that "help the poor/needy" get created, there will always always be yet another tier of additional taxes that we simply MUST support because they "help the poor/needy." It does not end. The reason it does not end is because it isn't a direct transfer of money. Every tax inflates bureaucracy. New ways to siphon off funds in the guise of philanthropy.

My point is that there should be a line but there never is. If universal health care were to be instituted here, they would move on to the next big tax demand push that will be characterized as obviously humane and moral.

I have a problem with our elected officials using their power to get more money. While the numbers seem absurd, I cannot fault the CEOs for their income. They are not stealing it from tax funds. Someone at some point had to choose to pay them and that is freedom. It isn't a measure of worth as much as it is a free market symptom of competition and what the market will bear.

tl;dr I am fine with taxes and the use of taxes for taking care of our own but dislike the corruption behind those endless tax ideas. Also: No one has the right to decide how much above the minimum I want to pay an employee.

[–] sslssg (35205) 3 years ago

I'm not American, so I can't imagine the shit show that would happen trying to get to universal health care because the system is for profit.

UBI would replace a lot of the programs to help the poor, so the one program would replace a lot of the bureaucracy and red tape. Yes there will be kinks to iron out, but I think it will be a good possibility when automation takes over most industries.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

Again, and with respect to you as I genuinely like you, most people struggle with the bills, this is a struggle that’s been going on forever and it will likely never change…hard work pays off, I know plenty of people who have proved this

[–] sslssg (35205) 3 years ago

Yes, hard work can pay off.

It's a little disingenuous to say that that is the only reason that people get ahead. People can work hard at 3 jobs and still not be able to pay rent. Just because someone else was able to go to school, or get a job that gives a promotion doesn't mean that it will work for everyone.

There will always be those who don't want to work. I am not arguing that, I'm saying that not everyone who winds up homeless is there because they are lazy, didn't work hard, or have substance abuse issues. I'm saying that most people these days don't have 3 months wage saved up. I'm saying that the system is different today than it was 30 years ago, and how things were when I entered the work force don't apply to today. I'm saying that with the rise of automation no matter how hard a human works, a machine will work harder, and we could all find ourselves in a pretty crappy place.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

I never stated that all homeless are lazy or deserve their predicament

Degrees and certificates greatly multiply a person’s chances to earn a good living and education is available through grants, scholarships and loans

Anyone working three jobs and still not making it should sit down and come up with a new plan

[–] Mrmojo4700 (21724) 3 years ago

“good schools with fine teachers”

Baton Rouge Louisiana has some of the most notoriously poor performing schools in this area, and I worked within most of them in the 2000’s. I can tell you those schools had excellent educators and were pumped full of money and resources. The areas in question also have all of the same community resources as other parts of town.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

In my experience it’s the people who choose their path, not the surroundings that dictate it

Nurses and School Teachers do God’s work, they perform under rough conditions to help as best they can, often with miraculous results

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

Schools in poor neighborhoods receive less funding than wealthier areas.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

That’s stated frequently, without sources

Based on what I see in the city all of those schools spend a tremendous amount every year

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

School revenue is based mainly on property taxes. Big difference between Appalachia and Beverly Hills.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

I’m aware

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

Did you not watch "Trading Places" re: nature vs nurture bet? Big difference between coming from poverty vs. a family worth millions or billions. The more money you have, the more opportunities. And nobody talks about the steep learning curve (aka: skills and values) needed to move between social-economic groups as well as networking opportunities.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

I never saw it but I’m aware of the concept

Your compassion is appreciated and admirable but when dealing with cases of poverty or broken families it’s best to give them some optimism and guidance, not throw them away as predestined failures

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

My entire point is that there are not equal opportunities. The OP appears to be blaming the poor for their circumstances and assuming it's easy to escape poverty when it isn't. Presently, most people are not doing better than their parents because of government policy changes since the 1970s. Change the policies to create opportunities for people to move up, again.

"predestined failures"
That's your term. I don't consider poor people to be failures.

I can't believe you never watched "Trading Places". Great film! Very funny.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

Oh, I saw Trading Places, good comedy, the way you phrased that made it seem like a documentary

Let’s figure we won’t agree on this matter, no harm just a vast void between our opinions

Good evening to you👍

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

Agree to disagree. That's fine.

Good evening!

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

I hope you're not talking about the Bronx. LOL! Pants on fire if you are.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

No lie
You’ll find decent people in all sorts of places

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

Bronx = few libraries, few health food stores, salads with pesticides and bugs, unhealthy greasy fast food, little organic healthy fresh food, few gyms, few museums or culture sites, few book stores. I'm sure the schools are crappy, too.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

You’d be surprised Keelai
The public schools stay open ‘til 11 pm so the community can use the gym and exercise equipment, the grocery stores have plenty of veg, meat, dairy and bread, Edgar Allen Poe’s house, The Botanical Gardens and Van Cortlandt Park are not cultural sites?

Subways and busses can deliver you all over the 5 Burroughs in an hour

People that wish to wallow in self-induced misery are free to do so. I see plenty of good families as part of my job and some of them do struggle, but it’s fair to say most people do

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

No, I wouldn't.

Schools stay open because there are few gyms.

Bread with chemicals and preservatives, vegetables and fruit sprayed with pesticides little to none holistic, unhealthy junk and fast food everywhere.

Subways and buses ... an hour? LOL! Pants on fire!!!

Yes, the Bronx has a few cultural sites - some nice, but it's no Manhattan or even Brooklyn. The Bronx Zoo, Yankee Stadium, The Cloisters. But, it's not a good sign if I can name most of them so quickly.

I said zip about the people. I'm specifically talking about what's in most poor areas. The Bronx is no exception! Jennifer Lopez left and appears to hate the place.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

You wouldn’t?
You seem pretty sheltered, but as I previously stated your compassion is noted and appreciated

Food in general can be dicey health-wise wherever you live

This is the second time Today that you’ve insinuated that I’m a liar…I will remember this, you will not but this will be answered for👌

Poor people are in poor areas, this point is moot and you now seem desperate but I am enjoying your flailing about like a Perch
On the line

What would you know about ‘poor areas’ you post like an elitist that would be a stain on the sidewalk 10 minutes after entering the City Limits

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

"dicey health-wise wherever you live"

The food in the Bronx is barely edible unless you like creepy crawlies slithering on your plate, Frankenfood, pesticides or grease. That's not the norm everywhere. You need to head to more upscale places to know what you're missing.

Poor people live in areas with crappier stores, housing, schools, healthcare, food, entertainment and more street crime. I already posted this, but your memory is slipping. Dementia?

You can travel from Van Cortlandt Park to Coney Island within an hour on the broken-down subway trains? You're pulling my leg, right?

You're stereotyping all "City Limits" as poor which isn't true.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

Coney Island is pretty remote, that’s fair to point out

You don’t seem to know a lot about The Bronx though

Have a good night, good discussion👍

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

NYC subway is notorious for being a mess. You must drive everywhere not to know that.

I know enough. Even Parkchester doesn't want to be associated with Da Bronx. New Jersey laughs at the Da Bronx!

Good night? Don't you want to know my thoughts about Yonkers? OK, fine. Good night.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

The subways are a mess, what do you expect? they always have been.

Good for you for knowing something about something

Why does Jersey ‘laugh at Da Bronx’ as you say?

More classist stuff from you smarty pants Lady or Guy👎

You know very little of this area if you think it deserves a painting with a broad brush

What’s your favorite restaurant, cultural site and park in Yonkers?

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

You're back! I thought you wished me a bonnie farewell in regard to this topic.

Your posts:
"The subways are a mess, what do you expect? they always have been."

"Subways and busses can deliver you all over the 5 Burroughs in an hour"

LOL! You're arguing with yourself.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (78638) 3 years ago

Nope, you can get around quite well in The 5 Burroughs if you know where you’re going, but it’s nice to hear that you care because you ‘heard things’

No info on Great Bronx historical sites?
Figured…You are a great story-teller and always seemed so

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

so, doesn't intelligence level equate to access to money, to access to better food and health?
that's the caste system point i'm making here.

in MY personal experience, relearning to shop better, the cost of eating health foods is not much more than crappy foods. I haven't done an accouting balance sheet comparing, but just notice it. broccoli for a couple bucks and a bag of lettuce make 2 to 4 full meals for me for just a couple bucks over all, and is very healthy compared to other options: hot pockets, frozen pizza, something "cheap" at mcdonalds-that I notice is no longer cheap.

Financially, I don't see living wage optimism as working out. companys raise paychecks, raise cost of goods, people stop buying, company closes - guess who is now jobless with NO wages? money has to come from a balance, and minimal paying jobs are generally starter jobs for high schoolers, not a job to depend upon for life income. it's been like that for many many decades. only diference I notice is the crying and whining from enabled entitlers. "Waaah! I can't buy a house equal to what my parents worked for, for 50 years, right out of college" "waaah! I have to work two jobs!" --- yeah, we ALL did. suck it up, and improve. almost no one is handed silver spoons. many of us work very hard for it. and the working staff I see out there right now is fucking pathetic, unmotivated, entitled garbage (thanks to their shitty parents) that I would never want them to continue working for me, living wage or not.

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

There are certainly class divisions in the US but there is no longer a formal caste system. There probably was a caste system of sorts in the US with Jim Crow laws that discriminated against blacks or signs that turned away the Irish, Italians or other immigrants. The British had an official class system for a while and India had a similar caste system. In the US, a lot of State U grads find that some exclusive doors are closed to them since they don't have an Ivy league degree.

Don't judge people by the car they drive. Many of the people driving luxury cars are not making an honest living. Walmart has EVERYTHING so you can choose to buy strawberry pop tarts or you can buy fresh/frozen strawberries. People born in crappy neighborhoods can MOVE if the schools stink and there are shootouts in the neighborhood.

There isn't always a correlation between intellect and wealth/health. A person could do everything right BUT they could get cancer from polluted drinking water. Life is not fair but there should be an opportunity for all to improve their standing through hard work. Some people learn the right skills and can make a ton of money even if they are not as smart. People making big bucks can also be destroyed by harmful vices like whores, drugs, booze, etc.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

may 3 paragraph disclaimer failed to impress I am not judging anything, like cars, simply REPORTING exactly what I am observing in the parking lots. I could put the numbers on a spreadsheet to prove I am telling the truth, but aint nobody got time for that.

this is MY specific observations, in MY particular area. not judging anything or anyone, just observing provable facts

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

I probably should have said not to judge a person's wealth by the car they drive. A lot of these luxury cars are monthly leases while the junk cars are probably paid off. I also would say that a lot of people driving luxury cars are fraudsters since they tend to live above their means. Many people have the trappings of wealth BUT they have massive credit card debts.

I would say your whole essay is full of judgments about people and that's fine by me. You're calling people rude, unkempt, less intelligent, etc.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

That's fair.
By definition of terms like unkempt, I feel I am not judging, but reporting using proper descriptions. Offensive as they could sound.

Heck, I go out unkempt at least half the time, so it is me as well :D

[–] BeaSouth (3567) 3 years ago

Joe J the voice of reason on this thread. I will start reading more of your posts. You make sense and don’t devolve into hysterics to make a point

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

Thanks! It's nice to get some props on here since I have been accused of being a conservative, liberal, commie, nazi, white supremacist and many others. My posts are quite reasonable when compared to the insanity of KeeLIE.

[–] AmeriGirl26 (15141) 3 years ago

The trouble with caste systems is that they are extremely inflexible. They put in ridiculous laws that state that you can never rise above your station if you worked hard enough and had a goal. That's one reason modern societies do better than old, ingrown ones like in India; they allow for upward mobility, and there are no rules against it. To be fair, the only thing that defines what class you are in America (leaving manners and upbringing aside) is money.

One thing that's great about America's system is, while many people will never rise above whatever class they started at (such as the poor or lower-middle-class), the door is always open to them if they choose to take that route. Even if they are not successful, that option is always there.

You don't have that in a caste system like what India had. No matter how hard you worked, no matter how much money you earned, both society and the law say that you will never be better than your fellow Caste members. You are not allowed to marry up, you're not allowed to get a job in a different caste, you can't wear the same clothes as the other castes, you can't live in a better home or move to certain neighborhoods, and nobody's gonna change their mind in how they treat you, based on your Caste.

One defining feature I noticed between the older generations and the younger ones in India is that the older generations (most notably the rich Brahmin) adhere to the old caste system, even though there are no official laws that support it anymore. It's purely cultural now. The younger Indians who grew up with modern influences left the old caste system behind and happily embrace the modern system that has blurred class lines and upward mobility available. Many will happily move to America if they're having issues with the old caste system ways creating an obstacle in getting a job. Sadly, some Indians brought that BS with them. I read about several small computer companies run by Indian CEO's that exclusively hire Indian employees, and implement the old caste system there, making life hell for anyone whose ancestors were in the lower castes. I remember one guy who was the best in this one (American-based, Indian-run) company, and yet the owner and employees treated him like shit because his family was originally from the Untouchables Caste in India. He eventually sued the company because of it.

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

Cool observations. I do believe that the US has provided opportunities for all since the seventies. There is certainly an opportunity for all US citizens to achieve the American dream of a middle-class lifestyle of a white picket fence, a yard and a garage. Making it to the upper-class presents more challenges BUT it's still possible. I'm just mad that a lot of middle-class/union manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas to totalitarian governments that manipulate their currencies.

An example of the flexibility in the US to rise up above one's class would be Donald Trump's appropriation of a heraldric symbol. The husband of the lady who owned Mar-a-Lago had a heraldric symbol posted on various structures of Mar-a-Lago and Donald Trump decided to use it for his family crest. He didn't have problems in the US but Scotland forbade the use of the unauthorized heraldric symbol.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40097665

[–] AmeriGirl26 (15141) 3 years ago

What does President Trump have anything to do with caste systems? This is a general discussion about whether America has a caste system or not, not a chance to dump on a guy who isn't even in the White House anymore. Or did you forget that this is not a political board?

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

My post about Trump was not political. I was just pointing out that the US does not have a formal governing body over coats of arms but Scotland requires the registration of coats of arms. Trump was able to freely use the coat of arms in the US without problems but the use of that coat of arms in Scotland was a violation of Scottish heraldric law. I also believe coats of arms are generally associated with wealthy/distinguished families.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

good stuff!

what I am looking at here as an unofficial "caste" type system, autonomously existing because of birth intelligence. not something created on purpose by people or government.

if you are smart, you make more money. because we need smart people in those smart jobs. thus, the worth/salary is higher... leading to eating better, being healthier, less obese potential.

no one wants a guy with 37 IQ to be their brain surgeon or do their taxes. everyone got handed different genes from birth, not by choice or wish.

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

Most Americans were moving up financially from FDRs New Deal policies until the late 1970s when those policies were reversed. Now, the rich are becoming richer and everyone else has lost ground. No coincidence. Government policy has a lot to do with what happens. I know someone who fled Russia when their currency suffered hyperinflation and government insiders stole all the money including pensions. Solidly middle-class and well-educated, this person had to start from scratch in a new country and never regained financially what was lost in Russia.

Governments provide obstacles or opportunities for their citizens. The Pilgrims left Europe where 95% of land was owned by 2% of the people. Don't underestimate influence by government and class.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

absolutely government does help sway peoples' directions yes, but, can we also make food decisions on our own, each person? I feel that freedom isn't removeable. unless somehow healthy foods pricing sky rockets while the rest doesn't, thereby FORCING the masses to only afford garbage foods. but, I feel like I still have a choice - as do lesser fortunate people, regardless of government urging.

IE someone in drive trough at mcdonalds, could sped that $45 dollars on healthy food made at home for her 4 kids, instead of quick, sold as "cheaper" fast food. i know kids don't LIKE healthy, but it is up to the parents to keep things in check. maybe they haven't been doing that for a while... thus the obesisty rate rising... that, and 1 million TV channels, really cool seated video games, sedementary lifestyle...

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

I meant government affects the quality of your life related to how much money you take home. Taxes, inflation, healthcare, services, school funding, etc.. Government also affects food choices through programs like food stamps, school lunches and their meal choices, food quality, etc..

But, you're talking about something different: food choices. Part of the reason has to do with limited healthy choices in poorer areas. Some of it is financial since healthier food can be more expensive. Some of it is cultural or regional. For instance, Southerners tend to be more obese than other regions. There could be social pressure to eat a certain way which is not healthy. There's also stress eating and the poor tend to be more stressed. Finally, people with higher incomes tend to be more health-conscious by exercising and eating healthier. That may have to do with the ability to delay gratification? Not sure.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

your last line.... "people with higher incomes tend to be more health-conscious by exercising and eating healthier" is one of my main points, yes.

i was trying to trace it back to brain level/smarts you are born with... more brains, better job, more money for healthy food.... yet I see natural foods are pretty cheap when you really start going there.

So, higher income choices.... maybe they are smarter... can't we watch and make those same choices also without being rich or smarter? Not talking caviar fish here, just the basic natural food groups.
a $8 bag of plain chicken strips feeds gives me 4 or five meals, verses $4 McNuggets you eat for one meal,
but I have to make that choice

[–] Keelai (36182) 3 years ago

People in foreign countries eat much healthier than Americans. There are cultures in which food is still made from scratch and processed food is rare. And they are very poor.

The problem is within American culture. Huge shift from home-cooked meals to processed when women joined the workforce. We're fatter, too.

[–] Wint3rFir3 (7400) 3 years ago

I don't think your postulation is wrong: to phrase it more correctly, intelligence often sets up a standard path of wealth, health and related weight, and sometimes less intelligence parallels the opposite of that: less wealth, less health possibly pertaining to weight. However, I think you actually proved how greatly wealth contributes to that intelligence and to choices relating to health and weight.

We're all born knowing nothing, so how is it that we learn about health and weight, etc, and how do we go about improving our intelligence? Easy, through education, and that education is often better the more money you have.

The food you eat is also often better because of money - like you yourself pointed out, you can actually afford to eat better food. You called the cost not that bad, meaning not that good either. Many others cannot afford food that's "not that expensive" and wouldn't even bother to venture into Whole Foods on the off chance that they maybe will be able to afford something there that's healthier.

It's not even about a lack of intelligence, it's about the freedom of choice money affords you. Why isn't healthy food simply available to everyone already - that's a much more pertinent question than why aren't people just smarter in their food purchases.

A mentally challenged person may never become a brain surgeon, but many super smart people work in jobs they're overqualified for. That should be even more obvious to everyone. I mean, look at women of colour. They're the highest educated people in the U.S and have been for at least a decade, yet they are probably the most underpaid. This is because intelligence doesn't trump historical prejudice or familial connections, etc. In other words, money opens doors that intelligence can't build a key for.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

excellent points, thanks for replying.

I've been trying to track down our weight issues here in USA where it has reach like 33% now in 2022, what the DEEP root cause is, and how it can be fixed. I'm not a doctor or nutritionalist, just a guy thinking out loud, trying to help.

I feel healthy food prices has been higher because it is not in as great demand as the majority trash foods: trashy, cheap, delicious! who would pick a vegetable over a sugar thing? processing and storage of vegetable is more expensive, sugar thing is produced in mass and cheaper because of that tooling, to meet demand.
I look around my local grocery store at the shelves and see like 80% is garbage, but it sells out and gets replenished weekly.
One reason I try to shop at whole foods more is to increase demand, show the need, and drive down prices as they work up mass producing better food. It's little, but I am trying.

I guess now, I need to sort intelligence into two catagories: 1 stuck level per handicap, 2 level changeable with education.

So, sounds like education COULD help with the obesity crisis... and that can be free to everyone... learning how to eat healthier. If that is the issue, how can we freely educate people to not be addicted to something that taste good, like sugar?

Just pondering options toward resolutions here.

So, I back tracked weight issues from money to intellegence backwards.... how can we educate the mases to make better food purchase choices, when SOMETIMES the healthier foods, are slightly more expensive?

[–] Wint3rFir3 (7400) 3 years ago

I'm not sure if it's supply and demand or if it's simply availability and cost that makes junk food sell out. But I don't
know that education alone can fix the obesity problem. I think there's more to it, that it's much more complicated.
I think everyone inherently believes that beauty is a kind of currency, and wealthier people benefit much more from that currency than non wealthy people do and therefore have a lot more motivation to eat well and care about their appearance, but they also have the resources and staff to cater to improving their diet and maintaining that diet and their overall appearance. I don't think most truly wealthy people shop at regular stores for food, whether it's Whole Foods or Walmart, unless it's for a laugh.

Think of it this way. If all your clothes were individually priced at thousands of dollars each, you would take better care not only of what you did while wearing them, but how you looked in them and of each specific item. This would affect the way you lived your entire life, what you ate, where you went, etc. Now think of a person whose entire outfit is valued at under $30, including underwear, socks, shoes, the whole fit. Think of that person as only having maybe two or three changes of clothes entirely. You see how the way they live life and how they think, how they eat, even how they view themselves as a person, would be very different.

What I'm getting at is, education alone can't undo something this intricate. People need resources to actually make and maintain changes, and strong motivation to keep going. It's not enough to simply say, you'll be healthy. It has to be more, and if there's no promise that you'll inherit any of the kind of currency that beauty offers, then there's not enough motivation for people to unlearn what they've learned from birth or change their behaviour because people usually do what's easier rather than what's better for them.

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

Interesting conversation. My family has also been into healthy eating so I was always given funny looks when eating with people. I would get ridiculed for eating a bowl of salad from my elementary school years through my college years. I was eating pumpkin soup with co-workers and the whole table of people eating french fries couldn't believe that people would actually eat pumpkin, a very nutritious food by the way. Just don't eat too much pumpkin since you will turn ORANGE. A life of pizza, chips, ice cream and chocolate is way more FUN!

You are also ignoring the pernicious effects of various drug addictions. A junkie doesn't care about food. They just want more drugs. Chris Farley and John Belushi were both RICH FAT guys who died young from drugs. They and many others may have had self-control issues.

There is also a philosophy of not worrying about the golden years because the golden years are often fool's gold. Does it make sense to live an extra twenty years confined to a wheelchair wearing depends and eating apple sauce?
Some people would rather opt out before dealing with the aches and pains of being a senior.

Heredity and even medical conditions will cause people to gain weight. Some people with high metabolisms can eat three plates at the buffet without gaining weight while others have to be more careful.

https://www.webmd.com/diet/obesity/ss/slideshow-weight-gain-conditions

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

absolutely not discounting those natural weight problems, but I doubt those are the cause of American obesity hitting one third. ONE THIRD!! My god!
A whole third of our population is over weight. We used to play outside all day, ride bikes, exercise kind of naturally. Now we have too many sit around hobbies like I am doing right now...

Anyway, yes there are natural problems too, but my focus is not the smaller uncontrollable parts, but the larger majority segment, and whether it is related to intelligence/smarts/thinking or being able to earn more money and eat better.

I really suspect you don't have to earn more money to eat healthy, just change many personal life choices.

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

The only problem with these obesity stats is their reliance on the outdated BMI measurement. The BMI doesn't account for athletic body types, big bones and big boobs. An athlete who runs and lifts weights everyday will be considered overweight by the BMI chart.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439 * Outdated BMI *

Many people have a sweet tooth so they will keep eating the sweet stuff. I've actually met people don't like chocolate, ice cream or potato chips.... I kinda wonder what they do like.

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

I may have quoted some online stuff, but mostly, I just look outside. In my area, heavier set people used to be very much the minority (I'm kinda old - many years observations). And now, I'm sure I see a majority is heavier now... in my area.
And the obesity curve is known to be climbing. Sadly.

[–] Wint3rFir3 (7400) 3 years ago

I mostly agree. I wasn't ignoring any of the aspects you discussed, I was just trying to keep my word count as small and palatable as possible.

Your paragraph about healthy eating versus social ridicule is part of a really weird societal catch 22, where you're always supposed to appear like you're eating well, "cheating" on meals and partake in social eating events to the point of eating foods you don't enjoy, but somehow maintain the appearance of someone who works out constantly and rarely eats - and you're supposed to somehow make this look easy and natural, or else be judged harshly. It's weird and even just questioning it will leave you ridiculed or questioned about your weight.

I'm not ignoring substance abuse or addictive personalities - again, it's just a really long discussion that falls even outside of the OP. The fact that Farley and Belushi were both overweight has a lot to do with the fact they took drugs; junkies often overeat so they technically care about food - or it's more appropriate to say their relationship with food is complicated by drug use and they abuse food the way they abuse drugs. Not to mention that eating and drug use for celebrities ties very strongly into self-esteem and beauty/image. Taking drugs to stay slim versus quitting drugs and turning to food to replace an addiction, or even gaining weight due to no longer having drugs support your slimmer body - all these kinds of things are what I mean by it's a complex issue.

I totally agree with the golden years thing. I think it's even simpler - why give up short term pleasures for possible long term positive results, which aren't even close to guaranteed? We all know that young people who've never smoked die of lung cancer, while people who abuse drugs their whole lives live long. It's that short term mutual gratification thing over the distant and unpromised possibility of a better life later.

Yeah, genetics are also a thing, and so are medical conditions, agree.

[–] joej2923 (3149) 3 years ago

Acceptance of healthy eating depends on one's social circle. Most of the people who gave me crap about my salad weren't very sophisticated. There is also a lot of peer pressure from associates to engage in various vices.

A drug addict's relationship to food might vary depending on the type of drug. I believe meth speeds up one's metabolism while opioids slow down one's metabolism. Marijuana people get the munchies while I thought the meth folks didn't need food. The opioid epidemic might explain some of the weight gain.

Some people have really good genes so they'll be in good health despite their bad habits. Keith Richards is a guy who is somehow alive and thriving. Jack Lalanne's older brother died a year older than him and Jack Lalanne dedicated his life to fitness.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10614241/Keith-Richards-78-reveals-hes-fitter-finally-quitting-smoking.html

[–] 123Guy (7846) 3 years ago

good points.

i notice in walmart, and any cheap grocery stores, there is always an area with fresh fruits and veggies... and then the usual ton of processed foods, some better most worse for you than we admit. the availability is there, its just not purchased as much. so, rich or poor, the option exists. one group makes a healthier decision than the other.

i'm as guilty as the next, with a gut to prove it, that its more fun buying TASTEY food over healthy - even though when I have good full healthy, I saved a bunch of money, eating VERY healthy at home - like 50% cost savings eating healthy over NOT eating healthy in my personal experience.

good looks or not, I'm looking at facts of over weight always having health problems along with it. with obesity on the rise, there must me a cause that we can recognize and reverse.

Now, I have noticed the younger people making much better choices, and as a result, all of the convenience stores around here have pushed soda pop into a smaller side cooler, replaced with larger coolers filled with waters, teas, juice drinks, and some other healthier stuff. Maybe this transition to better foods is already happening?