MovieChat Forums > Politics > Jews = privileged whites?

Jews = privileged whites?


I often hear (left-leaning) commentators gripe about a film cast, board of directors or whatever, being "too white" even though there are Jews on it. For example, people are saying the Friends cast was too white, even thought half of them were Jewish.

Wasn't there a death order on Jews across an entire continent less than 80 years ago? Somehow this seems to have been forgotten and pales in comparison to the age-old Atlantic slave trade (started by blacks, of course). There's also "systemic racism" or some shit affecting blacks in the US, which oddly doesn't seem to affect American Asians (wealthiest group in the country, per capita).

So, are Jews just privileged whites?

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If Jews are white then Jesus was white. Checkmate Libs!!!

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"Hello, fellow white people!"

Nah. They're mighty gifted at playing the chameleon game, but they're not white. Which is something they'll freely admit when they're in front of the right audience.

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They're mighty gifted at playing the chameleon game

Yup, just like their Mossad Motto - "By way of deception, we shall do war."

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Have you ever seen the movie Blade? It's a similar situation that, like Blade himself, involves having all of the strengths and none of the weaknesses. In other words, daywalker minus the day and whitewalker minus Game of Thrones.

Jews Rock!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgNDA_Z2H0U

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I love this analogy.

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Great post by BlackMass !

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I often hear (left-leaning) commentators gripe about a film cast, board of directors or whatever, being "too white" even though there are Jews on it. For example, people are saying the Friends cast was too white, even thought half of them were Jewish.


It is true that, in the US at least, the majority of Jewish people identify as white. But then, many here regularly take exception to biological men identifying as women (ie reassigning their own gender) ...

Wasn't there a death order on Jews across an entire continent less than 80 years ago? Somehow this seems to have been forgotten


The Holocaust and its lessons, is never forgotten. Not on my side of the fence anyway. Out of the respect for those millions I will make no further comment on it.

to the age-old Atlantic slave trade (started by blacks, of course).

... started yes, but whites were heavily involved in the rest of it.

There's also "systemic racism" or some shit affecting blacks in the US, which oddly doesn't seem to affect American Asians

https://ftm.aamft.org/systemic-racism-and-the-asian-american-community/
https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2023/11/30/discrimination-experiences-shape-most-asian-americans-lives/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8607736/

If one says that Jews are 'privileged whites', then one will have to accept that white privilege exists for them to be part of. This is not a popular view on this board, at least when suggested in other contexts. Just sayin'.

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"If one says that Jews are 'privileged whites', then one will have to accept that white privilege exists for them to be part of."

There is no such necessary requirement based on the phrase "privileged whites" in this context, beyond the insinuation that Jews represent the functional equivalent of whites with privileges. On the contrary, the implication that can be derived from this assertion is that there are whites without equivalent privilege, else such a distinction would be redundant.

Just sayin'.

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That must have been difficult for you to explain away lol It sounds it.

the implication that can be derived from this assertion is that there are whites without equivalent privilege, else such a distinction would be redundant.


And if we can identify whites without privilege, then this is only possible because....

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It was easy, though perhaps not so much as your cheap response, or this one for that matter.

We can identify blacks without privilege, that does not necessarily imply that there are blacks with privilege.

If I am not being nice to you, does that specify I'm being mean to you? Of course not.

For someone who does this regularly on these forums, your grasp of semantics is lacking and shallow.

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We can identify blacks without privilege, that does not necessarily imply that there are blacks with privilege.


1. If out of all blacks some have privileges, and some do not.
2. Then out of all blacks, those who lack privileges are not the same as those who have them.
3 So if there are blacks out of all who have privileges they are not those who do not.

(This is not the same as saying that some blacks are neither privileged or not.)


If I am not being nice to you, does that specify I'm being mean to you?


LOL

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"1. If out of all blacks some have privileges, and some do not."

Nothing about the statement "blacks without privilege" implies the necessity of the above statement. The three points presented amount to a reductive tautology.

Thank you for the effort.

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If out of all blacks some have privileges, and some do not."

Nothing about the statement "blacks without privilege" implies the necessity of the above statement.


Good try; but unless all blacks are privileged, it is logical to conclude that the group 'blacks' necessarily includes those which are, and which are not, privileged. In the same way unless all Americans are drivers then some are not. duh. Have a nice day.

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It is as logical as not being nice not being equivalent to being mean, as I might express the concept in simple terms to students.

Have a good day.

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""Not being nice" means to act in a way that is unkind, rude, disrespectful, or inconsiderate towards others, often involving behaviors like being harsh, sarcastic, or deliberately causing discomfort or harm." [Google] Sounds like being mean to me.

Have a nice one yourself. You will need it.

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The absence of something does not necessarily imply the presence of its opposite.

You learn something new every day.

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The existence of a group does not imply its homogeneity. May your days be long.

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Nor does it refute it.

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Societies are rarely wholly homogenous. Good evening.

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We've switched to inductive reasoning now. How exciting.

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" inductive reasoning"

its amazing what new flowery language I learn on this board.
I shall go away and google that one rather than ask what it means

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This is wrong. When Semi says 'not being nice,' it is not a positive assertion about behavior, such as being unkind, rude, or disrespectful. Instead, it is a purely negative statement, indicating the absence of 'nice.' For example, consider the statement 'This object is not red.' The 'not' doesn’t tell us what color the object is — it simply excludes 'red' from the possibilities. Similarly, 'not being nice' doesn’t mean one is unkind or rude; it only denies the presence of 'nice.' You could be "not nice" because you're dead or don't exist and not because you're rude or unkind. I recommend reading Bertrand Russell’s 'On Denoting', which provides a philosophical foundation for understanding such negations and their implications.

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I love this post.

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Thank you. Your exchange with FilmFlaneur reminds me of debates I used to have with atheists and non-theists. Many of them would conflate the two terms, largely because they followed figures like Dawkins and Krauss — popular atheists who, frankly, lack a deep understanding of analytic philosophy. When asked about their beliefs, they would often say, ‘I don’t believe in God.’ I’d point out that this isn’t a belief — it’s simply the absence of one and tells us nothing meaningful about their stance.

I’d explain that the term ‘non-theist’ is essentially meaningless in this context. A rock or a chair could also be described as a non-theist because they, too, lack belief in God. However, atheism is not synonymous with non-theism. A non-theist simply doesn’t hold a belief in God or, as they often phrase it, ‘lacks a belief.’ In contrast, an atheist makes a positive claim: the belief that God does not exist.

Many would reject this distinction or become confused, insisting the terms mean the same thing. I’d attempt to clarify by explaining that ‘not X’ doesn’t affirm anything about X — it only negates it. This failure to grasp the concept of negation in language often proved to be a stumbling block in these discussions.

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I can't respond to the grandness of what you said right now. It took me like 3 minutes to post this.

You are cool as shit my friend.

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When asked about their beliefs, they would often say, ‘I don’t believe in God.’ I’d point out that this isn’t a belief


Indeed; but see below.

A non-theist simply doesn’t hold a belief in God or, as they often phrase it, ‘lacks a belief.’ In contrast, an atheist makes a positive claim: the belief that God does not exist.


Not quite right. There is now a common distinction made between atheists who assert that there is no God, and so do not believe in one. and those who make no such assertion but nevertheless still share a lack of belief. i.e. A lack of belief in a deity is not contingent on saying one does not exist. These states are called 'strong' and 'weak', or 'hard' and 'soft' atheism respectively. I for instance am a soft atheist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

'Soft' atheism, as I am sure you know, can strictly be distinguished from agnosticism since the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that God exists, or the belief that God does not exist, means that any belief or lack of is necessarily is at best suspended, or a final decision is seen impossible.

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That was the debate I’m referring to. I reject that bullshit that is written in Wikipedia. My position is that there is no such thing as "weak" and "hard" atheism. This is a distinction invented by non-theists who call themselves atheists because they wanted to adopt the label — when it was cool and trendy — but didn’t want to take on the philosophical baggage of defending the position that God does not exist.

A non-theist means "not a theist," a negation of theism, which simply describes someone who does not believe in a god.
An atheist, a real atheist, is someone who believes that God does not exist. In this case, they aren’t negating "God" but rather God’s existence. All atheists are non-theists, but not all non-theists are atheists. Non-theists don’t have to make any arguments or defend their position; they can "lack a belief" for any reason — including being too retarded to think about it.

An atheist, however, has to engage intellectually and make an argument, such as the Problem of Evil, and based on that reasoning, they can conclude that God does not exist. Notice that this isn’t a proof — you don’t need proof. Proof requires knowledge. An atheist isn’t claiming they know God doesn’t exist; they are simply asserting their belief that God does not exist.

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I reject that bullshit that is written in Wikipedia

That is your privilege, but with such dismissals you sound like tvfan who rejects outright every source offered that he does not agree with.

that there is no such thing as "weak" and "hard" atheism. This is a distinction invented by non-theists who call themselves atheists because they wanted to adopt the label — when it was cool and trendy — but didn’t want to take on the philosophical baggage of defending the position that God does not exist.


It was a logical coherent position actually refined and brought into common usage by Antony Flew, an atheist some decades ago. (I studied with Flew at Reading in the 80's and can assure you he was a rigorous atheist, a pretty famous one too and no flake)

An atheist, a real[my emphasis] atheist..


Unfortunately this is a Scotsman.

.. is someone who believes that God does not exist.

As already said it is not contingent on making an assertion about whether a god exists to merely lack belief in one.

An atheist, however, has to engage intellectually and make an argument


But didn't you say that "Non-theists (which include atheists) don’t have to make any arguments or defend their position"?


Again, unfortunately, we are in Scotsman territory. All that is required to be an atheist is to lack belief in God. Although it is quite possible to make arguments against a god without saying one must not exist. Indeed I do it all the time. I have my strong suspicions, to be sure, but that is not a belief.

But don't take my word for it:

"Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Where one would think they would best know what they lack belief in.

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Comparing me to TVfan, who often dismisses arguments out of hand without providing one themselves, is a low blow. Of course, it is my privilege to disagree with Flew, and I’m not taking anything away from him. I’m simply presenting the argument that he’s wrong on this point. The same critique applies to Wikipedia and the atheist.org website. These sources fail to use language precisely, leading to erroneous interpretations of these terms and creating unnecessary confusion. I’m attempting to clean up that mess.

But didn't you say that "Non-theists (which include atheists) don’t have to make any arguments or defend their position"?

Non-theists don’t have to make any arguments to defend their non-theism, but non-theists who are atheists do have to defend their atheism. This distinction is clear and does not represent a contradiction.
Unfortunately this is a Scotsman.

No, it’s not. When I say a "real atheist," I’m referring to someone who actively believes that God does not exist. I’m precisely defining what a real atheist is and drawing a clear distinction from a non-theist who falsely claims to be an atheist. This is not a fallacy. You’re far too quick to call something a fallacy without fully engaging with the arguments I’m making.

It would be refreshing if you extended me the benefit of the doubt — considered that I might actually know what I’m talking about — instead of assuming I’m making baseless assertions like some others on this board that you frequently spar with.

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Comparing me to TVfan, who often dismisses arguments out of hand without providing one themselves, is a low blow.


I only compared you to him in this one instance,

I’m simply presenting the argument that he’s wrong on this point.

Your argument, such as it is appears to be, was only that the distinction was 'invented by non-theists who call themselves atheists because they wanted to adopt the label — when it was cool and trendy — but didn’t want to take on the philosophical baggage of defending the position that God does not exist.' which unfortunately attacks the people, not the positions they hold.

These sources fail to use language precisely

Saying that atheism is just a lack of belief in God seems pretty precise to me

non-theists who are atheists do have to defend their atheism.

This would only be true if they assert God does not exist. If they do not assert, no onus is on them. The point here is that the default, and best practice, is not believe in things unless they are proven, or strongly suggested. Otherwise the result is endless credulity since the number of things which do not exist is infinite.

When I say a "real atheist, I’m referring to someone who actively believes that God does not exist. .. I’m precisely defining what a real atheist is

Whatever; you are still defining what constitutes a 'real' atheist while denying all others, to suit an argument - right down to disregarding American Atheists, who are clear in what they stand for and how it can be defined, as apparently 'not precise' enough.

It would be refreshing if you extended me the benefit of the doubt — considered that I might actually know what I’m talking about

I don't doubt that, but in dismissing a common distinction between the two different types of atheism out of hand before telling me what 'real' atheism is, in the face of what atheists them themselves say, etc you do yourself no favours.

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Saying that atheism is just a lack of belief in God seems pretty precise to me

It may seem precise, but it's unnecessary. We already have a term for that, and it's "Non-theist." A non-theist is simply someone who does not believe in God, which is the negation of "theist." This is logically consistent.

In contrast, an atheist is someone who actively believes that God does not exist. This elevates the term to something more than mere absence of belief — it implies that the person is making a positive claim about God's nonexistence. An intelligent atheist, then, is one who is capable of taking on the burden of proof and defending their position.

A non-theist, or a "weak atheist," as some might call them, could be an idiot, who is barely conscious, yet still classified as an "atheist" according to the loose definition you've provided. I'm simply arguing that such individuals should not be considered atheists in the meaningful sense. We want the word "atheist" to carry weight, to be a positive and intentional claim. For the absence of belief, we already have the term "non-theist."

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It may seem precise, but it's unnecessary.

Not if it distinguishes between two sorts of atheism.

We already have a term for that, and it's "Non-theist." A non-theist is simply someone who does not believe in God,


Indeed, but that still does not mean that one cannot make a useful distinction as Flew did. He found it so and so do I. I have no problem in being called a non-theist btw, it is hardly a insult - although you seem to forget that as a term, it is necessarily inexact since it does not include non-deism too - when you have insisted things have to be precise. So it is not an exact word for atheism after all. Having said that, that you prefer one term over another is fine; I would rather hope you would extend the same luxury to me - and the many others I have indicated, rather than just suggesting that atheists don't know what we are saying or that everyone is necessarily intellectually dishonest.

an atheist is someone who actively believes that God does not exist.


Please see above and my comments about identifying 'real atheists'.


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I'm not saying Anthony Flew is wrong in the sense that he's an idiot — I'm simply arguing that his approach was misguided, and his distinction was unnecessary, ultimately muddying the waters. This confusion snowballed in the mid-2000s when figures like Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and Krauss were discussing these terms. Their audiences often identified as atheists, but because they held fundamentally different beliefs or lacked belief for different reasons, they ended up talking past each other.

The term non-theist is the correct one for anyone who lacks belief in a god for any reason — whether they're a chair, unconscious, undecided, or agnostic. However, if you affirmatively believe that there is no god, then you are an atheist. This term already encompasses the rejection of theism, deism, pantheism, and similar concepts.

My argument is that using these terms correctly is a better, more logically consistent, and elegant approach. You're under no obligation to adopt this terminology — but it'd be a lot cooler if you did.

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The term non-theist is the correct one for anyone who lacks belief in a god for any reason This term already encompasses the rejection of theism, deism, pantheism, and similar concepts.


As already noted, for one obvious reason (that atheists are also 'anti-deists') alone, we cannot comfortably prefer 'anti-theist' over atheist. It does not bring the precision of language you have insisted upon earlier,

Their audiences often identified as atheists, but because they held fundamentally different beliefs or lacked belief for different reasons


It is those 'different positions' that prompted Flew to initiate the two terms in the first place, offering a clear and logical dividing line based on a simple test: after all is said and done, does someone ultimately make a negative assertion re: God's existence?

The term non-theist is the correct one for anyone who lacks belief in a god for any reason — whether they're a chair...


Another category mistake you keep making, since a chair is not a person. i.e. it is not that it lacks belief in God, so might as well be deemed an atheist, but that it cannot have any cognition at all.

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You're still not getting it. It’s not a category mistake. A category mistake happens when you assign a property to something that doesn’t belong to its category — like saying, "a chair is thinking about God." That would be absurd because chairs don’t belong to the category of beings capable of thought or belief.

What I’m doing, however, is describing the absence of belief in an inanimate object, which is logically coherent. Here's the reasoning:

1. A chair is not a theist.
2. A non-theist is, by definition, "not a theist."
3. Therefore, a chair is a non-theist.

I’m not claiming the chair holds beliefs or engages in the discussion about God. I’m simply pointing out that it isn't a theist, which logically places it in the "non-theist" category. There’s no category confusion here because I’m not saying the chair belongs to the category of conscious beings — just that it fits the definition of "not a theist."

The key distinction is between logical consistency and linguistic convention. In formal logic, "non-theist" means "not a theist," and by that strict definition, a chair qualifies as a non-theist. The confusion comes because "non-theist" is usually used to describe conscious beings who lack belief in God. But that’s a linguistic issue, not a logical one.

Earlier when you were talking to Semi he was making a logical argument. And that is what I was trying to explain to you. He wasn't making a category error and neither am I.

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Thank you for this conversation, CM. The forums haven't had anything comparable to this level of discussion since Skavau left.

Flimflam, that gratitude extends to you as well. Though I assure you that the moniker is a term of endearment, if you'd like I'll stop referring to you as such.

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Thank you, Semi. As I mentioned earlier, coming from you, it really means a lot. I’m glad I could contribute something a bit more intellectually stimulating to the Movie Chat forum and show that it’s not all about flexing on the Dindus — though, I’ll admit, that’s still my favorite pastime. I wouldn't be much of a racist if it wasn't. :-)

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Flimflam, that gratitude extends to you as well. Though I assure you that the moniker is a term of endearment,


On balance I see it as a negative which, rightly or wrongly, gives me an impression of negativity (probably because it has been presented that way in the past). But either way it's not a big deal - especially in the light of some of the insults received here lol

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You're still not getting it. It’s not a category mistake. A category mistake happens when you assign a property to something that doesn’t belong to its category — like saying, "a chair is thinking about God." That would be absurd because chairs don’t belong to the category of beings capable of thought or belief.


First off, you have above said that by your own reckoning, an atheist is someone who actively believes that God does not exist. So, by your own reckoning, a chair cannot be atheist, which rules out one sort of anti-theist at least.

Second, you are employing an anthropomorphic fallacy, attributing human characteristics i.e. of 'lacking belief' or being 'not-theist' to things inanimate. When you say "A non-theist is, by definition, "not a theist." the 'definition' here is of opposite theological positions. But you are attributing a chair a position in human theological discourse which it does not, and cannot, 'hold'. It merely echoes a human negative in being mute. A subtle but crucial difference. Is 'not-theist' a natural and reasonable attribute of a chair, in the same way as polish or the number of legs is? It's daft and sounds a little desperate your logic, no matter how strictly correct; rather like saying' rocks don't appreciate art'. That doesn't mean it is is useful or sensible to call rocks 'philistines' - or even that it tells us anything more that is meaningful about them. Rocks don't 'appreciate' anything and aesthetics, like theology, is a human trait.

or there is this to which things can be boiled, since we all like logic

1. If a chair does not hold theological positions
2 and anti-theism is defined as a "theological position"
3 then a chair does not hold to be anti theist.


In formal logic, "non-theist" means "not a theist,"

And yet, just above you expand the meaning to include "anyone who lacks belief in a god for any reason" which brings, as already said, nothing of the precision you prize. As you say I might be anti-deist, agnostic or, er, a chair. So why specifically 'anti-theist'? . A reason why Flew's two-fold distinction is so useful and I will stick with it.

He wasn't making a category error and neither am I.

The theological position of this chair is non-theist' is a category mistake, just like 'the number of blue is 7' is.

My point, still, is that while one can be an anti-theist not believing in a (theistic) God it is useful to distinguish between those atheists who go on to assert that God does not exist, and those others who do not - something which the bald 'anti-theist' label does not. Hence, once again, Flew's widely accepted and useful distinction plays best as a tool.


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"...you sound like tvfan..."

Not only was that not nice, but it was outright mean. You should be nicer, flimflam.

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I thought it a fair comparison, in this one example. tv often rejects things out of hand which are not convenient to his argument.

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You thought wrong, because it was unfair. And also not very nice. ;-)

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also not very nice
That thing which doesn't necessarily imply an alternative?

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I included the winky face for a reason. I was using the term colloquially, just as you were, while also acknowledging that it has a more precise meaning in reference to our discussion. In other words, I was employing the term in both senses simultaneously, which I thought was amusing. I was attempting to make an inside joke, but it seems you weren’t in on it. My apologies.

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Apologies accepted.

But for reasons already given 'not very nice' is not a precise term. Besides issues of context and perspective, what would would be the objective measurement for 'not very nice' and 'quite a bit nice' 'nice' and 'very nice'? And I still haven't been told of what constitutes 'not nice'.

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Speaking of Scotsmen, we're coming dangerously close to Hume's Fork, Sophie. Proceed with caution!

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I'm a admirer of Hume, I must admit.

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You will observe that I compared CM's way of arguing to tv, not himself personally. I did not belittle him.

"Flimflam"

Is that 'very nice' of you?

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Some things just are.

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And some things not.

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Would you mind sharing what your area of study was at Reading?

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Sorry but I would. I don't and wouldn't want to claim any superiority or be accused of claiming it. I just thought it relevant to mention relevant face to face experience with a very prominent atheist and originator of the distinctions, Flew, on this specific topic. CM knows his stuff, but here is being too proscriptive in his epistemology. He also seems to be making a category mistake in comparing the objective quality of red to some thing being 'nice' or not - a moral or subjective measure and not at all scientific.

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'This object is not red.' The 'not' doesn’t tell us what color the object is — it simply excludes 'red' from the possibilities.


But necessarily, all shades of red are still 'red'.

Similarly, 'not being nice' doesn’t mean one is unkind or rude; it only denies the presence of 'nice.'


'Not being nice' is just another way of describing 'mean, unkind or rude' which, common sense and usage tells us, are different shades or sorts, of 'not being nice'. You are applying sound logic to the wrong issue

You could be "not nice" because you're dead or don't exist and not because you're rude or unkind.
.

If only we were discussing the dead which is a bit of a diversion. However all these things can be roughly equated to each other, and are, in common understanding,

But, good try.

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Flimflam you had lost this debate already, but CM sealed it with the unassailable contention that dead people cannot be nice, nor mean.

You tried so hard and got so far but in the end it doesn't even matter.

Sorry, something about your post made me want to start quoting Linkin Park. Please forgive me.

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CM sealed it with the unassailable contention that dead people cannot be nice.


Hardly a devastating reveal lol The dead, however can still be privileged, either in esteem or just a push burial plot. So not strictly germane.

Which diversion brings us neatly back to the privilege and lack of privilege in society, widely noted, measured and explained by individuals, academics and governments? A distinction one can discern, as implied by the OP and which prompted all this.

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"not X’ doesn’t affirm anything about X — it only negates it."

May your love never end and if you need a friend there's a seat here alongside me.

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X’ doesn’t affirm anything about X — it only negates it

You post here. So that means you do not post here. Got it. Well, that makes sense. LOL

Some people post here a lot. What does that logically imply to you?

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You forgot a word.

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No, sorry I don't insult people.

'Some in society have privileges'. What does that logically imply to you?

"are Jews just privileged whites?"

what does that imply to anyone else?

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It means that while some must endure a semantic fling with flimflam, others have the privilege of being dead.

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You said it yourself: "the implication that can be derived from this assertion is that there are whites without equivalent privilege,"

.. which we can extend to blacks and Jews. And if we derive the implication of there being non-privileged whites then, to distinguish them....



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I said privilege equals death. Are you advocating to extend such privilege to blacks?

I'm not, to be clear.

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I said privilege equals death. Are you advocating to extend such privilege to blacks?


What on earth are you talking about?

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“dead people cannot be nice”

Unless you’re a necrophiliac.

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If I had a Wookiee penis for every time I've heard that one.

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Time for the lipstick emoji 💄

Btw, George Lucas still won’t answer my emails.

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If all shades of red are red (they are all a subset of Red), then 'not red' necessarily excludes all shades of red.

I agree that, in colloquial terms, 'not being nice' is often used as shorthand for being rude or unkind. However, when making a philosophical argument, the term is used with precision — and this is how Semi was using it. He is well versed in philosophy and is knowledgeable about these concepts. In this context, 'not nice' is the negation of being nice. It doesn’t imply being rude or unkind but simply the absence of being nice, which can occur for various reasons, including nonexistence. For example, I might not even be conscious, and therefore I’m necessarily Not nice, but that doesn’t mean I’m rude or unkind. I’m simply 'not nice' — the negation of nice.

I understand that this might be confusing. Please know I’m not saying this to insult you or call your intelligence into question. This concept is something that almost everyone struggles with because it’s a subtle point about how language works. That’s why I recommended 'On Denoting'. Reading it will help clarify how language handles negation, and everything will make much more sense after that.

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If all shades of red are red (they are all a subset of Red)

Which they are and is what I mean when I include all sorts of nasty things under the heading of 'not nice', which was the point. As welll as you using good logic in the wrong circumstances.

In this context, 'not nice' is the negation of being nice. It doesn’t imply being rude or unkind


In which case, I am sure you can define what constitutes 'not nice'. If you cannot identify what things commonly or can make up the term, then how can it or its absence be properly recognised? After all as you say when making a philosophical argument, the term is used with precision - although ultimately I do not think 'not being nice' is capable of being that, since it can necessarily depend on context, perspective and motive.


Thank you for your advice.

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The definition of Not nice is anything that excludes niceness. Inanimate objects are not nice (not in an aesthetic sense, but with respect to being kind). A non-existent being is also not nice because how can it be anything if it doesn’t exist?

Once again, I’m making a philosophical argument here. Or, to put it another way, it’s almost a mathematical argument. Analytical philosophy often employs logical structures akin to those found in set theory and number theory.

What you are attempting to do is argue using colloquial language, where Not nice meaning unkind is perfectly acceptable. However, that is not how Semi was using it. If you don’t recognize this distinction, it inevitably leads to talking past one another. The reason I inserted myself into this conversation was to assist and clarify what he was saying so you wouldn’t be confused.

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The definition of Not nice is anything that excludes niceness.

I didn't ask for a tautology, but thank you anyway.

Analytical philosophy often employs logical structures akin to those found in set theory and number theory.

Thank you for the information,

However, that is not how Semi was using it.

'Not nice' is a woolly and subjective phrase which as I already said is subject to a number of variables. I don't think mathematics and number theory can help either of you here.

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You would get an actual bow if we were in the same room right now.

Fuck, you can teach the next lesson.

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Damn, coming from you that means a lot. Thank you Semi.

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started yes, but whites were heavily involved in the rest of it.


And were heavily involved in ending it to, at least within their own territories, something a lot of people love to forget.

Just like they love to ignore that to this day, countries mostly populated by non-whites still practice slavery and inequality, even against women. But they're not ready to talk about that, and/or they don't have the balls to say it out loud.

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whites were heavily involved in ending it to, at least within their own territories, something a lot of people love to forget.


This is true, but it took a war in America to end things - and reparations are still being avoided generally by previously slave owning countries. The UK for instance compensated the slave owners, not their slaves. Also, although not today on the same scale, modern slavery is not extinct in the west and laws have been introduced in recent years to address things.

countries mostly populated by non-whites still practice slavery and inequality, even against women. But they're not ready to talk about that, and/or they don't have the balls to say it out loud.


Again this is true, but it is best not to stereotype. Inequality is also not just the preserve of the third world, although one can argue that conditions can be aggravated and more egregious there for various reasons, including the legacy of colonialism.

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It took a war because the slave owners didn't wanna give up their slaves. Reparations were already paid when the slaves were freed, given equal rights, and allowed to stay instead of being automatically shipped back home.

Stating facts isn't stereotyping, and we are so far removed from colonialism that it can no longer be used as an excuse to explain the poor conditions of third-world countries.

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Reparations were already paid when the slaves were freed, given equal rights

Those familiar with the history of reconstruction, when the post-Lincoln administration dragged its feet or failed to live to earlier ideals are more sanguine. Also 'equal rights' was still being fought for through the sixties.

and allowed to stay instead of being automatically shipped back home.
that is a good deal? Was it even discussed as an option?

we are so far removed from colonialism that it can no longer be used as an excuse to explain the poor conditions of third-world countries.


https://www.bisa.ac.uk/articles/how-do-colonial-legacies-shape-contemporary-global-political-economy

https://theconversation.com/how-colonialisms-legacy-makes-it-harder-for-countries-to-escape-poverty-and-fossil-fuels-today-159807

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My point stands, reparations have already been paid, regardless of how long it took. They would've gone much faster had people stopped voting for those who fought against equality.

Those articles perpetuate a false narrative that colonialism is somehow still negatively affecting the world to this day, all for people to blame the consequences of their own actions on others.

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My point stands, reparations have already been paid, regardless of how long it took


The first recorded case of reparations for slavery in the United States was to former slave Belinda Royall in 1783, in the form of a pension, and since then reparations continue to be proposed. To the present day, no federal reparations bills have been passed.The 1865 Special Field Orders No. 15 ("Forty acres and a mule") is the most well known attempt to help newly freed slaves integrate into society and accumulate wealth. However, as I intimated above, President Andrew Johnson reversed this order, giving the land back to its former Confederate owners. In 1867, Thaddeus Stevens sponsored a bill for the redistribution of land to African Americans, but it did not pass. And so on.
Those articles perpetuate a false narrative

Or is it that you just believe your own?

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None of that refutes anything I've said.

And I repeat, those articles are spreading a false narrative to avoid accountability.

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None of that refutes anything I've said.

"reparations have already been paid,"

As I said above the first recorded case of reparations for slavery in the United States was to former slave Belinda Royall in 1783, in the form of a pension, and since then reparations continue to be proposed.. i.e. not made.

and I repeat, those articles are spreading a false narrative to avoid accountability.

The rejection of reliable sources as invariably false, if not agreed with, is an unfortunate right wing trope. In the case of reparations in the US, I am not suggesting that none has ever been paid, more that the path has been difficult and not helped by the failures of Reconstruction administration to act promptly and fairly. It is certainly not the case that 'it's all been paid'.

Here is another source of info for you to dismiss out of hand:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery_in_the_United_States

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What does it matter what bills were proposed or passed? Reparations have already been paid, I don't know how many more times it needs to be said. Any attempts beyond freedom and equality laws are redundant and unnecessary, and even harmful. Nobody alive in America today was a slave, nor has owned a slave. Nobody owes anyone anything.

I have yet to see any "reliable" sources that prove people are still feeling the negative effects of colonialism. Actually think for yourself instead of mindlessly parroting what you see on the internet. If having the common sense to reject faulty biased claims makes one "rightwing", so bet it. It seems rightwingers aren't so bad after all.

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What does it matter what bills were proposed or passed?

It matters if reparations are to be made from a state or at Federal level, and as such is a good way to judge how matters progressed.

Reparations have already been paid, I don't know how many more times it needs to be said.


You can say things all you like but that does not make it true and you offer no evidence.

I have yet to see any "reliable" sources that prove people are still feeling the negative effects of colonialism.


The aim of colonialism is to exploit the physical, human, and economic resources of an
area to benefit the colonizing nation. European powers pursued this goal by
encouraging the development of a commodity based trading system, a cash
crop agriculture system, and by building a trade network linking the total
economic output of a region to the demands of the colonizing state. The
developlnent of colonialisln and the partition of Africa by the European
colonial powers arrested the natural development of the African economic
system.

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1182&context=utk_chanhonoproj

Of course I accept that slavery and colonialism are not the same, but their histories are interconnected.

As said already the denial of inconvenient sources is just a right wing trope, seen all the time on this board. The refusal to offer others by way of contrast or rebuttal is another. Thank you for playing anyway - and that is all from me.

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You can say things all you like but that does not make it true and you offer no evidence.


What more evidence do you need? Slavery is abolished, and minority groups and women not only have equal rights, but preferential treatment thanks to unconstitutional laws and programs like affirmative action and diversity quotas. If anything, the pendulum has swung the other way, and people not deemed "minorities" are being punished for things they didn't do.

As said already the denial of inconvenient sources is just a right wing trope


Being called "right wing" doesn't mean anything anymore when far-leftists like JK Rowling are labelled as such over the smallest disagreements. I might as well take it as a compliment since it inadvertently confirms I have common sense.

You have yet to post any inconvenient truths, and saying you have doesn't make it so. There is no evidence that colonialism has arrested the growth of under-developed countries. The inconvenient truth is that those countries were worse off before the colonists arrived, they were barely growing, if at all. They have no one to blame but themselves for their stagnation.

Better luck next time.

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You have yet to post any inconvenient truths


Oh dear.

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1. You're mistakenly identifying all Jews as being Ashkenazi who are white European Jews. There are Mizrahi, Sephardic, Ethiopian etc Jews who are not white.

Many European Jews can pass for nonJews which can help shield them from discrimination although orthodox Jews can become targeted because of their religious clothing. Blacks and most Asians cannot pass for white which explains how they are easily targeted for systemic discrimination.

Your belief that discrimination doesn't exist is very racist and antisemitic. What irony!

Not all Jews are rich. That's an antisemitic stereotype.

2. In the early days of Hollywood, Jews were drawn to show business because there was less discrimination in that new industry. Antisemitism and discrimination still exists.

3. You're mistakenly confusing discrimination with earnings. Jews were doing generally well before the Spanish Inquisition and Nazis gained power which is one of the main reasons they were targeted. Modern day racism began 500 years ago in Spain by targeting successful Jewish businessmen. Christians asked the king to make it illegal for non-Christians to run businesses. They basically didn't want the competition.

4. The "wealthy Asian" is a stereotype. There are plenty of poor Asians. You're also assuming all Asians are a homogeneous group when there are many different ethnic groups with different histories. For instance, India's middle-class tend to leave for better opportunities so they arrive in the U.S with money and degrees which explains why they earn more. Laotians tend to arrive poor and are earning less than most Americans.

Asians face a great deal of discrimination in the U.S.. East Asians in my area were wearing dark sunglasses to hide their eyes and avoid attacks after Trump incited violence against them.

5. Friends was too white. They lived in New York City, but the crowd scenes and people they interacted were 99% white. Seinfeld was much more realistic with plenty of diversity.

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The existing responses were enough. Nobody needs to hear from a leftoid caricature. Call me "racist" all you like... that term has been rendered meaningless by people like you.

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Keeliar is in favor of Holocaust 2.0, just giving you a heads up.

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Holocaust 2 is happening now in Gaza. You favor that atrocity.

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Israel defending themselves against radical Islamic terrorists who want to blow them off the map is not Holocaust 2.0 you dishonest idiot. Hamas is the one who took cover behind his own people, Hamas is responsible for every single Israeli and Palestinian death. You are a Nazi, just like those freaks last semester on college campuses you want to “gas the Jews” all because their skin isn’t dark enough. You are one sick demented freak.

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Your entire rant against "rich white Jews" controlling Hollywood and "rich Asians" is racist, anti-Semitic and ignorant.

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You don’t like Jewish people because their skin typically isnt dark enough for you. You’re a filthy racist.

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Most Jews are brown or black especially historically. Jesus, real name Isho, was brown. You've been watching too many bad Biblical flicks.

You're too ignorant to know the difference between Judaism and Zionism. You're completely clueless.

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You hate Jews because of their skin color. Quit lying to yourself .

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"Modern day racism began 500 years ago"

what was classic racism like?

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Basically, it allowed for adaption to the dominant culture for acceptance. For instance, if you were a foreigner in Ancient Greece, you'd be considered inferior. But, if you adapted to Greek language and culture, then you would be considered equal and accepted.

Modern day racism says there is nothing you can do to be equal and acceptable.

You can see the change when Spain created laws excluding non-Christians from work and government so many Jews became Christian. Then Spain rewrote laws stating they needed to be Christian at least three(?) prior generations called limpieza de sangre (blood purity) which was the beginning of modern day racism. Basically, nothing you do will make you acceptable.

Racism is created to empower one group over another. It started with Spanish merchants not wanting competition from Jewish merchants so they asked the king to change laws.

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Are you saying Classic Racism is better than Modern Racism?

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She is just saying she is okay with her brand of racism.

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All racism is bad. But, classic racism will accept a person whereas the extremist modern racism won't.

Spaniards, French and British practiced different forms of racism when you look at colonization.

Spaniards believed improvement of minority comes by miscegenation. Interracial marriages are much more accepted in Spanish-speaking cultures in the Americas. A "mixed" person considered better than not mixed black or indigenous.

French believe improvement of minority comes by adapting French culture. They'll accept a black Catholic person speaking French over a white Muslim speaking Arabic. aka classic racism

British (aka Anglo-Saxon aka U.S.) believe improvement of minority is impossible. The U.S. created laws against miscegenation and had strict Jim Crow laws of separation. When the minority excelled, it meant nothing and could be destroyed or ended like Tulsa and Reconstruction were. aka modern racism

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You're mixing up Jews and Punjab Indians. Neither are white but both are always on my fucking TV nowadays.

Difference being there are maybe 10 million Jews on this planet, and a thousand million dotheads.

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I see what you're doing here. May I ask, what is your ethnicity?

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