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Amy Wax suspended from U of Penn - for probably telling the truth about black law students

posted 2 months ago by pumpspunk (170)
28 replies | jump to latest

https://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-imposes-major-sanctions-controversial-law-professor-amy/story?id=113955753

law professor amy wax has been suspended by the university of pennsylvania for a year for stating a few unpleasantries. she's said more than a few things that proper people aren't meant to mention over the years, but the primary thing that seems to have done her in is this statement on glenn loury's podcast:

[quote}"I don't think I've ever seen a Black student graduate in the top quarter of the class, and rarely, rarely in the top half," calling this a "very inconvenient fact."[/quote]

my question would then be 'is she wrong?' people may not like hearing something like that, but facts are facts. i wouldn't suspend someone for simply stating what is true.

as far as i can tell, u of penn have not published anything refuting wax's statement. they've said it's not true, but if it's not true, then they should be able to present the black students who have appeared at or near the top of their graduating law classes.

there are ways of finding out some things, though. some intrepid fellow with time on his hands has done a little digging:

https://www.stevesailer.net/p/as-amy-wax-predicted-no-blacks-made

But, I now realize, it’s simply not true that Penn Law “does not permit the public disclosure of grades or class rankings.” In fact, Penn Law discloses the approximately top quarter of its graduating class annually when it publishes its Honor’s List (summa, magna, and cum laude) as part of its graduation ceremony. Here’s the 2023 list, for example.

In turn, that discloses that the individuals in the others 75% of the class were not in the top ~25%.

A tenured college professor who has some time on his hands after being fired for doing politically incorrect research took the 75 names on Penn’s 2023 Honors List and looked up their pictures online. (Only a few ambitious young Ivy League lawyers don’t get their pictures online.) He found 60 whites, 10 Asians, 3 MENAs, and 2 whites who might be a little Asian. One white with an Eastern European surname looks conceivably, say, 1/8th black, but none of his relatives look at all black, so he’s probably not black at all.

Keep in mind that its’ probably easier to make the top quarter of the class on overall GPA than in a mandatory first year contract law class, because Ivy League law school students get to take a lot of optional classes their third year with fluffier grading. So, it would hardly be surprising if black affirmative action admits did slightly better overall on average, by prudently picking easy optional courses, than in the meat-and-potatoes first year contract course.

But, this quick and dirty analysis suggests that the burden of proof in this 7 year old controversy is now on the Penn Law School administration. After all, they have the data and they’ve been keeping it secret all these years, even now when sanctioning Professor Wax.

as steve sailer notes elsewhere in the article i linked to above, it would be very surprising if there were a significant number of black students in the top of the upenn graduating law class.

"For example, Penn, which ranks somewhere between 4th and 10th most exclusive among US law schools, has a median LSAT score of 172 for its class of 250. But only about 19 blacks in the U.S. score 172 or higher on the LSAT each year, and most of them no doubt go to the top 3 law schools, Yale, Harvard, or Stanford, due to affirmative action. So, very few of the blacks at Penn scored in the upper half of Penn’s class on the LSAT, much less in the top quarter of the class (only 10 blacks in the country equaled or bettered Penn’s 75th percentile score of 174)."

so it seems pretty likely that wax is being punished not for being wrong, but for simply noticing things that you're not meant to notice. seems very unfair to me.

[–] B1cKsurN (17405) 2 months ago

I notice a lot of things....that must make me a RAY SCIST and an AUNTY SAMEEDIC!!!

[–] AmeriGirl26 (14381) 2 months ago

The fact that Affirmative Action is causing more harm than good, and isn't actually helping as many African Americans as it claims to be when getting a degree, is just a really ugly truth that a lot of elites in power don't want to admit. She's not being racist, she's telling the truth.

I've heard similar stuff from other people going to prestigious colleges. The most interesting one was a guy who had three different roommates at his dorm. Keep in mind, that the story-teller was a good student, kept his side of the room clean, worked very hard on his homework, and didn't cause trouble. It was very different with his roommates.

Roommate #1: Black student on a scholarship. Was a lazy slob and dicked around with girls and drugs, and hardly did any homework for the first two semesters he was there. He eventually dropped out due to being unable to pay the rent on his dorm lease (he spent all that free money on himself), and "got fed up" with what few classes he attended.

Roommate #2: Native American student on a scholarship. He was similar, but was nicer than the first roommate, but also did more drugs than sleeping around, and he too only lasted for a few semesters before dropping out.

Roommate #3: Student directly from Africa who was working a full-time job in addition to going to college. He was very nice, neat and tidy, was a very hard-working student, was courteous to the story-teller, did not sleep around, didn't do drugs, funded his own way through college, and actually graduated!

What the story-teller found was, people are more likely to graduate because they want to, and because they care more when it's their money on the line and not someone else's.

[–] pumpspunk (170) 2 months ago

"Roommate #3: Student directly from Africa who was working a full-time job in addition to going to college. He was very nice, neat and tidy, was a very hard-working student, was courteous to the story-teller, did not sleep around, didn't do drugs, funded his own way through college, and actually graduated!"

roommate #3 is a very common & important detail in the affirmative action story. the policies that are meant to give a boost to the native born black population more often benefit recent immigrants & international students, the elite from their country in america to get the best education.

when you see a high achieving black student in a program, there is a non-trivial chance it wil be a nigerian.

[–] AmeriGirl26 (14381) 2 months ago

Doesn't sound like Affirmative Action is helping where the Ivory Tower types thought it would work.

[–] Tam87 (1173) 2 months ago

Yeah, no shit. Do people ever wonder why poc's are incapable of building and maintaining prosperous societies for themselves? Intelligence is a key factor in that.

All this controversy will do is force elite universities to start doctoring test scores/papers in order to place more poc's into the top quarter, which is what I assumed they were already doing.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaunharper/2023/07/03/graduation-rates-higher-for-black-collegians-than-for-students-overall-at-harvard-and-princeton-equal-at-yale/

Do people ever wonder why poc's are incapable of building and maintaining prosperous societies for themselves? Intelligence is a key factor in that.

Stereotype much?

[–] maixiu (2216) 2 months ago

Explain Haiti, Rhodesia, and South Africa.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

The claim that 'intelligence is a key factor' for the lack of such 'prosperous societies' is all yours, so is the onus on you to prove it. Or 'explain' Indonesia, India and Saudi Arabia.

[–] maixiu (2216) 2 months ago

The onus is on me? OK, by every measure of progress and quality of life, the three nations I cited declined precipitously once white rule was replaced by black rule.

And what exactly is there to explain about Indonesia, India or Saudi Arabia? Are they supposed to make your case? Indonesia is still a fairly poor nation in not only the grand scheme of things but even with respect to its nearest neighbors. Ever been to Medan? Peckenbaru? Jakarta? I have. I wouldn't hold them up as exemplars of prosperous societies. India? Another country that remains largely a shit hole. There's a good reason why the talented portion of that nation escapes to the U.K., Canada, and the U.S. Saudi Arabia? It would be as backward and depressing as Gaza were it not for petroleum, for the white man's engineering that enabled them to extract it from the earth, and for the oodles of money that have flooded into the country because of it. Hitting the lottery doesn't make one a genius.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

what exactly is there to explain about Indonesia, India or Saudi Arabia? Are they supposed to make your case?

Yes i.e. in that they are all 3 prosperous societies:

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%2C%20China%2C%20Germany%2C,gross%20domestic%20product%20(GDP).

All you have by way of comeback are your subjective impressions and

every measure of progress and quality of life, the three nations I cited declined precipitously once white rule was replaced by black rule.

opinions too, it would seem.

"Colonialism encouraged this development in some areas, but in many others severely retarded the normal progress of the continent. Had colonialism never been imposed on Africa, its development would be significantly different and many of the problems which plague it today would not exist." https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1182&context=utk_chanhonoproj#:~:text=The%20policies%20of%20colonialism%20forced,economic%20and%20technological%20position%20today.

Feel free to ignore this. Or this:

"The immense economic inequality we observe in the world today didn’t happen overnight, or even in the past century. It is the path-dependent outcome of a multitude of historical processes, one of the most important of which has been European colonialism."

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/economic-impact-colonialism

or this:

https://carnegieendowment.org/carnegie-africa-program-newsletter/9-of-the-20-fastest-growing-economies-worldwide-in-2024-will-be-in-africa?lang=en

It is certainly true that even Africa's richest nations pale in comparison to those on most other continents, although for historical reasons (see above) we may not be comparing like with like today. But there is no proven link between intelligence and prosperity.

There's a good reason why the talented portion of that nation escapes to the U.K., Canada, and the U.S.

Where they get such a welcome on this board, too..

India? Another country that remains largely a shit hole.

Yes or no but at least its a prosperous one. Which is the the point. (One notes too that you here tellingly use the same insult as Amy Wax did about Mexico.) Asians, btw typically do better on supposed intelligence scorings than do whites, so the correlation between intelligence and prosperity is tenuous to say the least while ,even if there is a correlation, that's not the same as a cause.

Unfortunately your white superiority complex is showing.

[–] tvfan (12729) 2 months ago

You do realize that others on this board have access to the same internet scriptures and propaganda as you.

Your wall is a confirmation of what you are trying to convince yourself of.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

You do realize that others on this board have access to the same internet scriptures and propaganda as you.

Yes. But there are none so blind as will not see.

[–] tvfan (12729) 2 months ago

And you have eyes to see but do not see; except what you want to see.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

None of the links I have provided in this thread have been questioned. I can certainly see that.

[–] tvfan (12729) 2 months ago

Internet scriptures and propaganda. 🤣

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

Internet scriptures and propaganda

What makes you say that? Apart from just disagreeing with them, of course..

[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 2 months ago

Source mine much? Typing a few words into a search engine to pull up an article like that, before acting like your low effort search result validates your perspective, seems to be your go to tactic in these forums.

Maybe your second most after throwing out the currently trendy term strawman, actually.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

If it is a reputable source (which I know means something inconvenient and so likely to condemned by the fingers-in-the-ears brigade) then it is appropriate.

after throwing out the currently trendy term strawman

Ironic this, since I have not claimed for a 'strawman' in this thread lol

[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 2 months ago

"If it is a reputable source (which I know means something inconvenient and so likely to condemned by the fingers-in-the-ears brigade) then it is appropriate."

So you don't deny your habit of source mining to provide your "proof." Your low effort key word searches, where you pick something out of the top 10 results that suits your conception of a reliable source, is apparent.

"after throwing out the currently trendy term strawman"

"Ironic this, since I have not claimed for a 'strawman' in this thread lol"

You also have a habit of cutting out statements to suit your narrative. It fits right in with your propensity for source mining. That you didn't do it here out of your nearly 500 posts doesn't refute your habit of using that trendy term as a rhetorical device.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

your habit of source mining to provide your "proof."

The sourcing of authorities, the extraction of salient quotes, to substantiate or prove a point is quite legitimate. It is common in the academic world for instance, while Christians and the legal profession do it all the time. The fact that some on this thread (including you) do not provide any support for your views, but merely attack best practice, is telling. 'Quote mining' incidentally implies taking things out of context, of which you unfortunately provide no examples.

It would look better if you actually looked at and contested my authorities rather than simply arguing about how I discovered them. In fact now you seem to focussing on me rather than on what I say, and there is a term for that too.

You also have a habit of cutting out statements to suit your narrative.

It was not 'cutting out statements' to say that I had not claimed a strawman on this thread.

your habit of using that trendy term as a rhetorical device.

If people did not call me out for things I have not said, which has happened a handful of times since I started on this board, then it would not need it pointing out to them. But it is flattering you have trawled through all my posts, I thank you for the interest.

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

Here's a bit of context for

law professor amy wax has been suspended by the university of pennsylvania for a year for stating a few unpleasantries. she's said more than a few things that proper people aren't meant to mention over the years

... the 'few unpleasanties' making homophobic and sexist remarks,such as commenting in class that "gay couples are not fit to raise children" and telling students that "women, on average, are less knowledgeable than men." Wax in an April 2022 Fox News interview also disparaged Indian Americans and said "on some level, their country is a s--thole." Then we also have her notions that "“Mexican men are more likely to assault women.” Wax also told a Black faculty member that it’s “rational to be afraid of Black men in elevators.”

Wax told Brown University professor Glenn Loury on his podcast "The Glenn Show" that "as long as most Asians support Democrats and help to advance their positions, I think the United States is better off with fewer Asians and less Asian immigration." Note: in intelligence tests, in so far as one can give them any weight, Asians and Chinese come out scoring higher than whites.

“Academic freedom is and should be very broad,” wrote Provost John L. Jackson, Jr. “Teachers, however, must conduct themselves in a manner that conveys a willingness to assess all students fairly.” The dean accused Wax of “incessant racist, sexist, xenophobic and homophobic actions and statements” and added that “Wax’s pervasive and derogatory racism and sexism expressed in public statements, taken together with her behavior in the classroom, leads reasonable students to conclude that they will be judged and evaluated based on their race, ethnicity, gender, national status or sexual orientation rather than on their academic performance and ‘true merit.’”

The University of Pennsylvania will suspend Penn Carey Law Professor Amy Wax for conduct including making derogatory comments about groups by race, ethnicity, and gender. Wax’s conduct it is alleged “creates an unequal educational environment”. “Academic freedom is and should be very broad,” wrote Provost John L. Jackson, Jr. “Teachers, however, must conduct themselves in a manner that conveys a willingness to assess all students fairly.”

If she had been talking about whites, I imagine, the usual suspects would be screaming for her Woke head. If I was a minorities student in her classes would I feel comfortable and assured of equal treatment? Suspension of course does not affect her rights to offer personal opinions, just not in her professional capacity or as a representative of the institution.

[–] maixiu (2216) 2 months ago

Including making homophobic and sexist remarks,such as commenting in class that "gay couples are not fit to raise children" and telling students that "women, on average, are less knowledgeable than men." Wax in an April 2022 Fox News interview also disparaged Indian Americans and said "on some level, their country is a s--thole." Then we also have her notions that "“Mexican men are more likely to assault women.” Wax also told a Black faculty member that it’s “rational to be afraid of Black men in elevators.”

Some facts are scary and should remain unsaid, eh?

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

"women, on average, are less knowledgeable than men."

She said it, and the results in her case are certainly scary.

[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 2 months ago

But is her treatment here justified?

[–] filmflaneur (1086) 2 months ago

The institution gave its reasoning, that teachers must "conduct themselves in a manner that conveys a willingness to assess all students fairly" while "incessant racist, sexist, xenophobic and homophobic actions and statements" are not usually considered professional conduct. I can't think of any employer which these days would permit such by someone at work. Since her right to freedom of speech generally, away from work is not effected, and she has not even been dismissed, I would say yes.

[–] HarlemEagle42 (17735) 2 months ago

Citing a racist to defend another racist. Ah, the internet.

[–] pumpspunk (170) 2 months ago

i don't believe wax or sailer are racist.
but that's not the thing to focus on, & it's not very interesting.
what should matter is whether they're right.

you can find race summaries of people who wrote the lsat here. https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummary.aspx

this page shows that there were 133 blacks in all of the us who scored 170 or higher on the lsat.

there were 3320 whites who scored 170 or higher.

so the number of black law students who are able to perform at a level to be in the top 25% of graduating classes are hard to come by, & as sailer points out, they are going to be snapped up by the top schools.

sailer posts the following on his substack:

https://www.stevesailer.net/p/penn-law-school-cant-fire-wax-so

"The Law School Admission Council publishes detailed information on LSAT scores nationally (but not by law school). In "heir most recent report on 2022-2023, Table 4A, the median national LSAT score (all races, but only U.S. students) was 151.73 on a 120-180 scale, with a standard deviation of 10.62. (It’s much like the SAT, where the midpoint is supposed to be around 500 with a standard deviation of 100.)

The competition for the smartest African-American-identifying LSAT takers, however, is much fiercer. In the entire U.S. last year, only 129 black applicant scored at least 170 or higher (about Penn’s 38th percentile). Just 21 scored 175 or higher.

Penn is a very prestigious law school, but it’s not Yale, Stanford, or Harvard. So it’s likely most of the 129 African Americans in the country who scored at 170 or higher (compared to Penn’s median of 172) were snatched up by the Big 3. Why go to Penn when everybody who is anybody in Big Law knows the very best black students go to Yale, Stanford, or Harvard, not Penn?

How many of the top 129 black test-takers in the country (170 or above, Penn’s 38th percentile) went to Penn?

I don’t know. Penn keeps this data very secret.

But Penn knows, and they’re not saying."

it's almost surely the case that blacks made up almost none of the top 25% of penn law graduates, & that almost all black students are in the bottom half of the class, with many of them clustered at the bottom.

penn has these stats. if this isn't true, they could prove them wrong.

until then, we have to go with things like people going through pics online of the graduates, which seems to confirm that which only makes sense - that there are no blacks graduating in the top 25% of penn law.

[–] Zarkoff (1853) 2 months ago

Testing is just as racist as the admissions were, historically.

Something must be done.