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sunshine62's Replies
by plainstyle:
... I don't know what Roddenberry would have thought of everything from DS9 onwards, but at the very least from prior to that, he doesn't seem to have disagreed with the idea that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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@Roddenberry had an utopic vision of our future where MANKIND has resolved issue like famine, disease, racism ,violence and war.
Humanity is unified and has reached a standard moral behaviour .
TOS is not about war ,it’s a compelling journey in space , it’s about exploring new worlds, seeking out new life , new civilizations…it’s about wanting to widen our knowledge , make new discoveries that will help us and other races preserve our planets and better our lives.
What makes a story interesting though is drama /conflict so there were still villains in TOS but they were mainly represented by other races ,like the Klingons or the Romulans ..if they were human they turn out to be mental ,had health issues (depression) or had experienced some horrifying trama (Decker) , so they were not accountable for their erratic/at times criminal behaviour. Seldom were humans depicted as straight out greedy/corrupted people in TOS.
Gene was okay with non Human characters fitting the “absolute power corrupts absolutely“ description (Parmen..). There were also all powerful beings that sat arrogantly in judgment (Arena, Who Mourns for Adonais...)
Roddenberry died in 1991 so DS9 , which aired in 1993, was the first spin-off of the franchise in which Gene was not involved in , hence the dark tone which he definitely would not have agreed on .
The values and morals of the Federation represent the core of Roddenberry’s vision : an enlightened humanity in the future.
ST:D has nothing to do with exploration.
The truth is that drama ,conflict sell more and ultimately the producers want their shows to be successful and make money.
@ Forced to live with a bunch of non-corporal beings wouldn't appeal to anyone...
Charlie was human and in normal circumstances should have stayed with his own kind.
Humans are social beings ,we crave physical contact ....a loving hug not only makes us feel good , it also make us healthier, mentally more balanced and reduces heart -rate, stress and anxiety.
@to Jesguy.
There is nothing wrong in you enjoying the film...there are parts I liked too....
nevertheless ,I don't see how a change of character has anything to do with why Rey and Snoke both sensed conflict still in Kylo (despite he had already murdered his father)and Luke ,somewhat 12 years prior, only sensed an overwhelming darkest in Ben...Luke stopped because he couldn't go thru with killing his nephew, his own flesh and blood , not because at the last moment he saw a sparke of light and he realised he had made a mistake.
by Ralph Macchiato:
Anything can happen as the show is still being written. So maybe your little bright spore is what will bring that storyline to fruition.
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@Thanks for considering my conjecture and making a comment...looks like the tiny bright spore was nothing more than an artistic close -up , after all..but it was fun just the same speculating.( biggrin)
I’m happy the Federation decided to listen to Michael and didn’t go through with the genocide of the Klingon race.
The Federation and its values and morals are an important aspect of Roddenberry’s vision of the future for humanity.
I’m happy the writers left this part pretty much untarnished ( depite having the federation using the expertise of a war criminal to win the war with the Klingons which would have had Gene cringe).
As I commented in a previous post : if there is truth in what the Federation states to believe and stand for, then even during war times it must be prepared, at all costs, to uphold those values and morals. (if we haven’t learnt that lesson within the next three hundred years , then I think there is no hope for us ).
So the USS Enterprise appears just before the end of the episode ...obviously Spock was not present at the ceremony but surely the crew of the Enterprise knows the war is over and is aware of Burnham's involment .
It is most likely that Spock never bothered to tell anyone that he even had a sister...Kirk and Bones had no idea that Ambassador Sarek and his wife, Amanda, were his parents.
Going by the looks Sarek and Michael exchange , it ‘s quiet probable that we will see Spock with Pike…unless HE IS an intergral part/has to do with Pike’s distress call. Maybe something happened to Spock .
One thing is for sure , it’s going to be harder for the writers to maintain continuity on track with Spock being now part of the show.
@ to vicky and century_hades.
Telling Tyler that her parents had been killed by the Klingons was unfair to him.
He had gone thru hell…tortured and rape (that’s what he experienced) while in a Klingon prison for months, suffered harrowing PTSD and then found out that he was a Klingon in the body of a human with two minds.
That’s a lot to deal and come to terms with , specially on your own seeing Michael made it clear she was done with him.
What I love about Tyler is his sensitivity and vulnerability…he didn’t see it as a weakness opening up and sharing his fears with the woman he loved .
He looked so lonely in his quarters trying to remember the significant moments of his past that ultimately formed , shaped and defined him as Ash…his human identity.
It’s said that our eyes are the mirror of our soul . Well in Tyler’s you could see not only his inner pain for all that had happened but also the pain he was experiencing because Michael chose to see Voq rather than Tyler in his eyes.
She made it clear that she didn’t want anything to do with him anymore but when vital intel about the Klingon home planet was needed , she came knocking on his door.
He was eager to help but when he said : “ not for you (M.Georgiou) but for you (Michael) “, she turned her head away and he ended saying . “ ..for the Federation “. She preferred to shut him off .
Her apathy and coldness in the end drove Tyler away and he chose to go live among the Klingons who will treat him at best as an amusement rather than seeing the person he loves ignore him.
She showed empathy for a war criminal that simply looked like her ex captain, she showed empathy for the Klingons that had killed her parents but she couldn’t reach out to Tyler the person that loves her and most of all needs her love.
Tyler is one of my top favourite characters on the show so , the season definitely ended on a very sad note for me.
by TomKi
Didn’t M.Georgiou develop the bio weapon that was used to kill her own troops.
How was M.Georgiou running from for political asylum, Discovery destroyed her ship, she still had a fleet of ships under her control.
I think she will use a bio weapon on the Klingons.
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Michael saving war criminal Georgiou didn't make sense and appealing to the Admiral that the Federation needed to grant her political asylum made even less sense.
The Empress explained to Sarek that in her universe the Klingons have been brought to their knees and Kronos is now merely a barren planet of dust.
Yes M.Lorca used M.Georgiou's bio weapon to kill her troops ...but I'm not so sure it was a tossic /bio weapon that caused the downfall of the Klingon Empire .. I'm incline to think that the Terran Empire found away to use some terrible mass weapon made by the Klingons themselves and used that to destroy their planet, turning it into a ....BLACKENED MASS OF DUST ... ( that's how the Empress describes Kronos).
For example an aggressive alien race could easily wipe out humanity by causing a nuclear chain reaction.
Also I don't see how Federation scientists would have the time to reproduce the Terran's bio weapon and why even go then on a secret mission to the bowels of Kronos ?
I really do think the means to destroy The Klingon Empire is actually already on Kronos ...some terrible death weapon manufactured by the Klingons themselves .
by maximmm:
Asylum is often granted to those who are running from a hostile (to yours) government - not necessarily an unjust one.
Thanks ,I 'll edit .
I just finished binge watching Lance Henrikson in the three season series "Millennium".
He is brilliant as Frank Black and the chemistry between the other main characters was palpable.
I can't get enough of watching this talented actor .. he has such a deep , sensual voice , it's mesmerising.
He is a very interesting person , he traveled a lot hitch- hiking in his teens .. he is very charming and well mannered when interviewed ..and he has a sweet, sincere smile and bright eyes..
I would love to watch more of his acting ..can anyone put me in the right direction?
@ to Frogarama
I was confused too so I googled it
marvellous movies and performances that appeal directly to a powerful audience -the 50-plus. We are delighted to celebrate another year of actors, directors and writers that brought the most compelling stories to life on the silver screen.
I smell a rat .. foul play...after the TLJ debacle the only way Disney can save face and KK her a$$ is by winning some awards.
This is the first step ,the first manoeuvre that will allow TLJ to win at least one of the 4 minor Oscar awards it receive a nominee for .
by stringey:
Lol the thing about Kylo and hux is that I could see that !!
@ Nice to know that at least one poster agrees that the match is not that far fetched after all!😑
by kuku:
First, it would fit very well in the story: Obi Wan takes Annakin as student for who he feels more than a friendship (being celibate means having no sex, it doesn't mean having no feelings). That blinds him when Annakin grows towards the dark side until it's too late. That would explain why Obi Wan has isolated himself in the desert, which feels to me like a kind of expiation. And that would explain too the scene where Obi Wan lets Darth Vader kill him, where he would be accepting the highest punishment from Annakin himself.
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@I read that during his training ,Obi Wan had had visions of what he thought was a brother .
Those visions were misinterpreted.
I think Ben saw in young Anakin a substitution of that wrongly dreamt brother .
What he felt was a strong bond like between siblings ..his last words to dying Anakin confirmed that : "I loved you like a brother."
Obi Wan felt he failed Anakin and he wanted to make things right...so he went in hiding until the time was ripe and Luke was ready to be trained in the ways of the force .
Obi Wan let Darth Vader kill him because he secretly was hoping that one day Luke would bring him back to the light side.
I guess sooner rather than later Ben was counting on Luke's good hearted nature to kick in and once he found out about their connection he felt that Luke would opt to save his father.
I believe that these are the motivations behind Obi Wan's actions.
by kuku:
So the thing here is: it seems that in the new morality risking your life and fighting for freedom is not what matters. What matters in the modern world is whether you like kittens or cucumbers.
@There is not much discussion on this board about TLJ except that it is crap so I decided to make a post on this topic ..I was curious if anyone would bite .
Your reply was unexpected ...I never thought to add a Wookiee , a Mon Calamari or ...what ever species Yoda belongs to...to the list of potential candidates .
I'm not sure if the gay community would even
appreciate being "represented" by a gay Bigfoot couple or a gay squid couple ..😑
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For example, I always thought that Obi Wan was likely gay in the OT, but who knows?
@ Really? Can you explain exactly what made you think that ?
I thought Jedis lived a celibate life .😬
by maximmm:
Voyager was very much in line with Gene's vision and it was the worst ST show __________________
@I am a Star Trekkie at heart but sadly I have only see a handful of Voyager episodes.
TOS is the only series I have finished recently seeing in its entirety despite I saw my first handful of episodes in the 70s.
With the exception of the last two season ,I saw TNG once 20 odd years ago on TV.
I have seen parts of the first two seasons of DS9 but I read that there is a lot of warfare at one stage.
ST.Enterprise : I watched some episodes of the first two seasons....
So yes there are huge gaps missing in regards to my knowledge of the franchise ... and this lack of knowledge, of course , at times for the better or worst, reflects in my comments .
That said I still am convinced that Roddenberry would be horrified to see what has become of HIS vision .
TOS (the essence of his vision) and STD are complete opposites.
Of course at the end of the day the producers are only interested in $$$$$ and a good script with descent dialogue set in war time with great CG I/battles and violence , sells more than Roddenberry 's optimistic vision of our future where humanity is focused on exploring space and seeking out new life, new civilisations ...a quest of knowledge that will help humanity find new ways to better life for everyone
Take away words like Federation , Klingons , Vulcans ,Andorians and we are just left with a well crafted science -fiction series .
At least that's my opinion.
continue..
I just saw episode 13 …a bleak and dark future…..the odds are against the Federation planets and their only hope in defeating the enemy leaves them no choice but to put aside their noble and just principals and accept the help of a war criminal.
Well this is far from the flourishing ,optimistic world Roddenberry wanted us to believe possible in our future.
This is a world where even peaceful Vulcans see no other option but to put aside , values and morals and make a pact with the devil.
Don’t get me wrong I am enjoying the dark tone in STD but this certainly is not the story Roddenberry wanted to tell….it resembles more Star Wars…where conflict, pain ,tragedy , horror and death are the main theme.
STAR TREK is suppose to be an adventure , the journey of a captain and his crew in search for life in space… for new discoveries, for new understandings , for knowledge that will help mankind understand better themselves and its place in the universe..
The Enterprise encounters peaceful aliens but also mean and cruel ones ,Kirk has to deal with “ the bad apples”: humans that have gone rogue, are sick , mental or are simply interested only in personal gain.
Kirk does his best to uphold the values and morals of the Federation trying to use words rather than force .
He’s a courageous captain ,an honest man, he tries to undo or fix situations created by others …most of the time he is successful, other times we get a bittersweet ending.
GENE’S VISION OF HUMANITY ‘S FUTURE is overall positive, encouraging, optimistic…STD instead is just all about warfare.
by Jamfo:
Sunshine... this is not directed at you, per se, but to everyone who continues to use this "this is not Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future" argument against this show. While Roddenberry did envision a future where humanity had learned to control our inner natures and, more often than not, made the morally correct decisions, he did not intend to take it so far that humanity became pacifistic to the point they would lose a war rather than utilize brutal tactics if necessary. ALL of Star Trek history makes this abundantly clear...
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@First off "STAR TREK" 1966 is the only series of the franchise that depicts Roddenberry's true vision .
Every series that followed was a step more towards the other direction.
Focusing on details , we tend to miss the bigger picture.
In Roddenberry’s vision mankind has learnt to put aside its egoism … there is no more famine, disease, racism and war .
In three hundred years time mankind , a united race, is focus on maintaining the wellbeing of its people and its planet.
The United Federation of Planets is an organization that represents all the noble values that mankind ,and another 150 planet members , have vowed to live by.
Obviously , there will still be corrupt people , " bad apples " ,but in GR future world they are a MINORITY , a very small portion of Earth’s population …(they’ll be the antagonists/villains in some episodes).
In my OP I said I hope the writers don’t go down a certain path ..that is :have the Federation accept the help of Georgiou , a war criminal , to win the war against the Klingons .
Roddenberry had at heart this idea of the United Planets of the Federation , where humans and other species coexist in peace. He called his “vision “ STAR TREK . THIS is the story he wanted to tell ….where mankind had eliminated war and WAS NOW UNITED IN A PEACFUL EXPLORATION OF SPACE.
continues.....
by Pesebrero:
In fact, she cannot be held responsible by any court of law. Even if they want to judge her for war crimes or "crimes against humanity" committed in the MU, there are no witnesses and no proof at all.
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@ Michael and her crew eyewitnessed the Empress' ship bombing heavily the planet the rebels were on ..M.Georgiou told Michael off and took matters in her own hands after Michael had failed to followed her orders to destroy immediately the rebel bases.
Michael saw her send a Keplian to his death and then had him cooked for supper.
Michael saw her kill at least 5/6 of her officers without hesitation in the thrown room
She saw the horrors of the torturing booths ...
Michael had quite a clear idea of how far M.Georgiou's cruelty extended...She knew she was a ruthless war criminal ..
And all these crimes were done just in a couple of days..
PS.And the biggest proof of the Empress' savagery and inhumanity will be in her own actions ...when she offers to use her military expertise to help the Federation win against the Klingons...they will soon see what she is capable of.
by Jamfo:
In this instance, Michael acted emotionally rather than logically. She could not bear to watch this person who, despite her ruthlessness, did share many traits with the Georgiou she knew, die once again. It is probably Michael's belief that if she could remove Georgiou from a universe of distrust and darkness that she could redeem and "save" her and, in doing so, redeem and save herself. Since Michael was led to believe that versions of herself had betrayed Georgiou in every universe, this was her chance to make it right and, for once, save her beloved mentor and captain.
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@Michael witnessed M.Georgiou put a sword thru Lorca’s back while he was verbally confronting her ..she candidly ate Kelpian , she personally murdered a bunch of her own officer in an eye’s blink not to talk about the rebels she exterminated on the planet....and all this bloodshed in a couple of days.
The truth is that Michael had no reason to save her , not even on an emotional base.
Her regime was one of terror and Michael CLEARLY knew that …how exactly did Michael imagine this journey of redemption would work out, anyways ?……going to a new universe doesn’t absolve M.Georgiou of her crimes…we do agree on that point, right?
Looks like the Federation will get Michael out of the uncomfortable situation she has got herself in.
Turns out that the Federation is going to use M.Georgiou's military knowledge …that same savagery that she used to subjugated not only Klingons but PEACEFUL races like Vulcans and Kelpians, to win the war…that’s ironic.
Lorca was right ..Michael made the right decision …unfortunately , her captain chose to follow Starfleet protocol and Georgiou fell right into the Klingons trap.
As I see it, Michael believes she made the right choice ….she is sorry though that she didn’t succeed in her intent because had she , most probably ,she would have avoided the war and her captain would be still alive now.That's is why she feels guilty towards her captain.
At least that's how I see it
@ to Jamfo.
I am aware of how leaders in power in the past and at present operate ..
I’m aware that M.Georgiou’s military experience against the M. Klingons would be vital to the Federation
And ( I ‘ll take your word that )Klingons and Romulans at one stage had joined forces (makes sense ..they don’t believe in what the Federation represents )
..BUT Gene Robbenberry’s Star Trek is set some three hundred years in the future …mankind has overcome problems like famine, disease, poverty , racism and war.
Mankind , together with over 150 other member planets, has form the Federation of Planets which stands for values of universal liberty, equality, justice and peace.
In Star Trek : Discovery , the Klingons “set a trap” and provoke intentionally a war with the Federation. The Federation has no choice but to defend itself but that doesn’t mean that Starfleet should put temporarily aside their principles just so they can win the war.
If there is truth in what they state to believe in , than even during war time the Federation must uphold those values and morals…In other words you don’t team up with the likes of the Empress , a war criminal .
The writers choice to go down this path is like giving the third finger to Gene Roddenberry ‘s vision of the future where humanity is morally good.
They could have easily had Stamats go back very close to the original time line and continue the story where they left off.. …the information they had against the Klingon cloaking device would ,as they had said before, give the Federation the upper hand with the Klingons.
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Also remember, in THIS universe, Georgiou hasn't killed a single person, so there isn't even any resentment or aggrieved survivors you'd have to appease in the process.
@The empress is a war criminal and even if she can’t be convicted as so in the Prime Universe her hands are still full of blood of all those people that she exterminated while in power/ during her regime.
@to Satan
Thank you for the weekly links you kindly provide .
spoiler alert...if you haven't seen episode 13 yet.....
So 1. Michael saves M.Georgiou and once back in the Prime Universe 2.the Federation will use M.Georgiou's savagery and military expertise to win the war.
1.why would Michael do that ? She is clearly aware that the only thing M. Georgiou has in common with Her deceased captain is their physical appearence. It's contrived writing ..the writers need the character for following plot.
2. It seems that The Federation is going to team up with the ruthless mass murdered to win the war with the Klingons.
I hope the writers don't go down that path...
By maximmm
I don't have quite as much faith in the writers of this show.
@I'm starting to have doubts too.
There were a couple of script choices that really annoyed me .
1. the writers choice to accentuate in every way possible the villain aspect in Lorca . I got the feeling that the writers wanted us to feel that Lorca was far more condemnable for his actions than M.Georgiou.
And why is this ?
For script purposes..they wanted to continue using Georgiou character..
2. The writer's choice to have Michael save Georgiou, just doesn't make sense to me.
Michael hated everything the Terran Empire and Empress Georgiou represented .
Michael and the crew of the Discovery freed the MU from the terror and the tyranny of the Terran Empire and the Empress .
The two teamed up to defeat Lorca ,then once Michael disactivated the shields she decided to save M.Georgiou and bring her back to her universe..
What plausible reason could justify such a choice ?
Should her crimes be "forgotten" because she did them in her universe? hardly.
There is no logic in Michael's action and emotions don't centre either because she is 100% aware that the two Georgious are different like day and night, white and black.
So why did the writers make that choice .. I think the trailer for episode 14 suggests why .
Despite being unrealistic, the writers have Michael save mass murderer M.Georgiou that way , once back home, the Federation can use the character 's savagery and military expertise to win the war against the Klingons.(Marcus and Khan/JJAbrams crap ️come to mind).
And where do the ethics and noble principals of the Federation stand then,if they are willing to make such a deal with the likes of M. Georgiou?
I don't particularly like how the story seems to be heading.