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07-26-19. Watching Little Bighorn again yesterday and today I found it very hard to see any details on the upper half of the guidon carried by the patrol, just a "C" on the lower part. In a couple of scenes I got a really good look at the upper half of the guidon and it seemed completely bare. The only time I thought I saw markings on the upper part of the guidon was after it fell to the ground in the last fight. This is not the first black and white western movie I have seen where the upper half of a guidon looks bare and unmarked.
1. Possibly the guidon props used in some movies were bare and unmarked in the upper part which might have the regimental number.
2. Possibly the colors used for the guidon props used in black and white westerns were made with colors that didn't contrast very well. Thus there could be markings on the upper parts of those guidons which just don't show up. On the other hand, other black and white movies do have clearly visible markings on the upper parts of guidons, and markings on the lower parts of the guidons usually show up fine in black and white movies.
3. Possibly some markings were painted on the upper part of the guidon used in Little Big Horn but quickly faded or washed away in the weather and so didn't show up in any close shots of the guidon.
But even though I couldn't see any marks on the top part of the guidon during scenes in the movie proper, close ups of a fluttering guidon were seen under the opening and closing title cards. Those clearly show a dark upper half with lighter colored crossed sabers and above them a number "7", and a lighter lower half with a dark letter "C". So the guidon seen in the opening credits is clearly supposed to be that of Company C of the 7th Cavalry.
Private David Mason said his father was Sergeant Mason of D troop. And the others are probably all members of the 7th cavalry. If They were all from company C they would be about 0.25 to 0.33 of its normal strength.
The story is dubious on the face of it.
The end title card says that nine graves of the last nine members of the 15 man patrol were found months later, six miles from Last Stand hill - and thus about 3 to 9 miles from Reno Hill where the survivors of the 7th cavalry fought off attacks on the 25th and 26th.
So who dug the graves for the last nine men? The Sioux and Cheyenne buried their own dead on raised scaffolds, and didn't bury dead enemies at all. If the last nine men were found on the 27th by 7th cavalry members some of them should have been recognized by some of the 7th cavalrymen who buried them and so would not be listed as "unknown".
So a theory could be that they were found and buried on the 27th of June by some of Terry's men from the 7th Infantry and 2nd Cavalry and were not recognized, and so their graves were marked "unknown" and for some reason these burials were not recorded. Then months later other visitors to the battlefield "discovered" those graves and didn't know who they were either.
Or maybe the proverbial "alien space bats" buried them.
But since the whole story is fictional there is no need to explain who would have buried those nine men.
In this post [url] https://moviechat.org/tt0047935/Chief-Crazy-Horse/5d118f04545b030d3b66e863/The-Fictional-Date[/url] in the page for Chief Crazy Horse (1955) somewhat similar problems with the chronology of Chief Crazy Horse are discussed.
Chief Crazy Horse (1955) condenses events happening over 11 years in history into two fictional years, creating chronological problems. And the age of Victor Mature indicates the mature Crazy Horse should be active in the 1880s, much like the age of Charlton Heston does for War Bonnet in the Savage (1952).
Possible theories about Chief Crazy Horse are:
1) Events happen in 1866-68 and then after a time skip in 1876-77.
2) All events happen in 1866-68 including duplicate Rosebud and Little Bighorn.
3) All events happen in 1876-77 including duplicate Fetterman Massacre.
4) All events happen in 1880s including duplicate Fetterman Massacre, Battle of the Rosebud, & Little Bighorn.
And if somehow the battles in Chief Crazy Horse (1955) happen in the 1880s as duplicates of the Fetterman Massacre, the Battle of the Rosebud, and Custer's Last Stand, that could be the same non historical Wild West war as the war in The Savage (1952).
"A Destiny Which Made US Brothers" (23 January 1966).
In "A Destiny Which Made Us Brothers" Jason McCord is delivered a letter which must be delivered at 3:00 AM on May 16, 1873. The lettering includes the phrase : "Ten years ago tonight", which was May 16, 1863.
[url]https://www.riflemanconnors.com/Branded/a_destiny_which_made_us_brothers.htm[/url]
So the present time in "A Destiny Which Made Us Brothers" should be May 16, 1873, even though much or most of the episode may be a flashback to May 16, 1863.
If Branded episodes happen in the order they were produced or broadcast, "Seward's Folly" should also happen in 1873, and maybe a few weeks or months before May 16. That would be a little bit earlier than indicated by Seward's "seven years" remark, but not too much. Of course if Branded episodes weren't produced or broadcast in the order they happen, "Seward's Folly" could happen in 1874 after "A Destiny Which Made Us Brothers" in 1873.
Added dec. 23, 2019. When the soldiers wake up Jason at the beginning of "A Destiny Which Made Us Brothers" Jason says the army has been hounding him for two years. Thus Jason might have been convicted and discharged from the army about May, 1871, or maybe arrested for cowardice at Bitter Creek about May, 1871, or maybe even the Battle of Bitter Creek happened about May, 1871.
"Seward's Folly" (17 October 1965) is apparently about 7 years after the Purchase of Alaska. When Jason says it will take him another week to finish his report on Alaska, Seward says: "I've waited seven years...I can wait another seven days." So the possible date range depends on how precise Seward was s when he said 'seven years".
[url]https://www.riflemanconnors.com/Branded/sewards_folly.htm[/url]
"Seven years" after March 30, 1867 - 1867.2438 - might be 7.000 to 7.999 years, making the date of "Seward's Folly" sometime between 1874.2438 and 1875.2428.
Or "seven years" might be 6.5 to 7.5 years, making the date of "Seward's Folly" sometime between 1873.7438 and 1874.7438.
Or "seven years" might be 6.000 to 8.999 years, making the date of "Seward's Folly" sometime between 1873.2438 and 1876.2428.
No matter how loosely Seward might have spoken, the date of "Seward's Folly" should be sometime in 1873 to 1876.
I watched it again on 06-19-19 and that's what Melinda said.
But the opening title card says: “1843 Louisiana”. So Melinda must be very bad at math when saying her husband was killed 4 years ago at the Battle of San Jacinto (April 21, 1836), or else The Comancheros (1961) happens in an alternate universe where the Texas War of Independence happened in 1839, not 1836.
Melinda has another problem; she's bad at simple arithmatic, making it hard for her to run her ranch/farm.
The opening title card says: “1843 Louisiana”. So Melinda must be very bad at math when saying her husband was killed four years ago at the Battle of San Jacinto (April 21, 1836), or else The Comancheros (1961) happens in an alternate universe where the Texas War of Independence happened in 1839, not 1836.
On June 16 2019 I saw part of the episode "The First Kill" April 4, 1965.
Jason meets the family of the first man he ever killed, Tad Manning. Tad Manning was a Rebel soldier at the Battle of Fredericksburg, which happened in 1862 in real life. So if there was any mention of how long Tad was dead in the part of the episode I didn't see, that would indicate the date of "The First Kill".
Chad Everett portrayed both Tad Manning and Adam Manning. Chad Everett was born June 11, 1937 and was 27 years, 9 months & 24 days old when "The First Kill" was first broadcast, and younger when it was filmed. Assuming that Tad was 17 to 27 years old at the Battle of Fredericksburg in 1862, and that Adam was 17 to 27 years old in "The First Kill", "the First Kill" should have been sometime between 1862 and 1872.
If "The Mission Part 1" must happen sometime between March 4, 1869 and March 4, 1877, and "The First Kill" should have been sometime between 1862 and 1872, and if they happen close together in time, they should happen sometime between March 4, 1869 and the end of 1872.
06-14-2019: Here is a link to a discussion of the ages of Achilles and Paris at the end of the Trojan War: [url] https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1995/how-old-were-paris-and-achilles-at-the-time-of-the-trojan-war [/url].
Of course Paris was often described as effeminate and wimpy in ancient Greek literature.
That could be the reason why Paris killed "only" 11 Greek warriors during the Trojan War according to the list here:
[url] http://www.maicar.com/GML/Paris.html [/url]
And one of those victims was Achilles, the greatest of the Greek warriors at Troy.
Yes, I know that they are not exactly the mythical characters but characters in one specific movie based on the myths.
And no, the Paris in the movie is not supposed to still be a teenager.
But what I said was the mythical Paris is not depicted as still a teenager at the end of the Trojan War. But since he is usually depicted in visual representations as a young man maybe 20 to 30 years old at the end of the Trojan War, and since in the myths the end of the Trojan War was at least a decade or two after Paris ran away with Helen, and since the myths seem to indicate that the Judgement of Paris might have been two generations in the family of Achilles before the end of the Trojan War, Paris should have been a lot younger when he ran off with Helen and during the Judgement of Paris than he was at the end of the Trojan War.
So any movie where Paris & Helen are supposed to be sympathetic and not villains should excuse their conduct by using the old "Aphrodite made us do it and told us it was right" excuse and so make a goddess responsible as in the myths, instead of ignoring the divine involvement that the myths depicted.
And any movie that seeks to make Paris & Helen sympathetic should make them as young & naive as possible at the time they ran off together, so they can be excused as much as possible for not realizing the dire consequences that were likely to happen. Such a movie could use several sets of actors at various ages to depict Paris & Helen growing up at Troy from children to teenagers to adults during the 10 or 20 years of the Trojan war.
And since Paris & Helen are always depicted as looking young at the end of the Trojan War, the chronology of the myths indicates that if they aged at the same rate as normal people, they probably wouldn't even have been alive yet at the time of the Judgement of Paris and maybe when Paris and Helen ran off to troy, so a movie can depict Paris & Helen as children when first introduced without any fear of contradicting the myths.
Before the French revolution it was common for officers to serve in foreign armies and even in several different armies during their careers. Even after the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars it was still common to have foreign officers in various armies.
Here are a few foreign born US officers of the era that I could remember.
John Basil Turchin, brigadier general of US Volunteers in the Civil War, was born Ivan Vassilyevich Turchaninov in Russia.
Franz Sigel (1824-1902) was German born, a Lt. in the Baden army, a colonel in the revolutionary forces of Baden, and a Major General of US Volunteers and corps commander in the Civil War. Sigel commanded the Union forces at the Battle of New Market in 1864.
At the Little Bighorn foreign officers of the 7th cavalry included:
Lt. Charles Camillo DeRudio (1832-1910), commander of Company E, an Italian who had narrowly escaped execution for trying to assassinate Napoleon III.
Captain Myles Keogh, commander of Company I, killed in Custer's last stand, an Irish born (thus born a British subject) veteran of the Papal army.
The Canadian born (and thus born a British subject) Lt. Donald McIntosh (1838-1876), Commander of Company G, killed in Reno's valley fight, was the most exotic, since he was half or three quarters Indian. His mother was said to be descended from Red Jacket (c.1750-1830). His brother Archie married an Apache woman and some of their Apache descendants were named Donald McIntosh.
Philippe Régis Denis de Keredern de Trobriand (1816-1897) was a french aristocrat who became brigadier general of US Volunteers during the Civil War. After the war he became a colonel in the regular army and commanded several forts such as Fort Stevenson, Dakota 1867-69, Fort Shaw in Montana, and Fort Steele in Wyoming. So he is an example of a French born officer in command of several forts and military units in the US west.
Patrick Edward Connor (1820-91) was born in Ireland and thus was born a British subject. He became a brigadier general of US Volunteers during the Civil War, commanding in Utah and later in the District of the Plains containing Utah, Colorado, Nebraska, and Idaho territories. He commanded in the Battle or Massacre of Bear River, January 29, 1863, and in 1865 commanded the Powder River Expedition with 2,600 men in three columns against the Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho. So he certainly counts.
Of course the fictional Fort Clenendin is overrun on November 17 to 18, 1876, according to the narration at the beginning, and the Little Bighorn was on June 25-26, 1876.
Note the in the 19th century the Cheyenne and Arapaho tribes were allies. About 1840 if I remember the Cheyenne and Arapaho divided into northern and southern groups. The northern Cheyenne & northern Arapaho became allies of the Teton Sioux tribes, forming what I call the northern plains hostile alliance, while the southern Cheyenne and southern Arapaho were first enemies of the Comanche, Kiowa, and Kiowa Apache, and later became their allies, forming what I call the southern plains hostile alliance.
Many of the northern Cheyenne fought with the Sioux at the Little Bighorn, but allegedly there were only five Arapaho warriors in the great Sioux camp at the Little Bighorn, who had been mistaken for Indian scouts at first and almost killed. It is said that one of those Arapahos then mistook Cheyenne chief Lame White Man for a scout at the Little Bighorn and killed and scalped him. With allies like that Arapaho, who needs enemies?
So in the fictional story of Chuka news of the Little Bighorn may have encouraged Hanu and the rest of the Arapaho to attack Fort Clenendin.
Actually the cavalry loses a lot more often, and more badly, in movies than in history. For example, Pillars of the Sky (1956) set in 1868, is based on a real army defeat in 1858, but vastly exaggerates the casualties. Fort Apache (1948) and The Glory Guys (1965) have fictional disasters based on the little Bighorn. And so on.
Hanu did not patch up Chuka. Hanu saw Chuka put his pistol to Helena's head and then turned and went out of the fort, leaving them alive.
Chuka obviously didn't die in the fort or stay there to welcome the soldiers days later, but there is no way to guess how many hours or decades Chuka lived after leaving the fort with Helena.
The question was about the other stagecoach man, who is identified in the credits as "Stage Driver" (Lucky Carson). You told what happened to stagecoach driver or shotgun rider Jake Baldwin (Joseph Sirola).
The fate of the stage drive (Lucky Carson) character was not seen. Possibly he managed to get out of the fort early enough to escape and alert the cavalry to come and capture Hanu after the fall of the fort.
Continued
So my "time computation" indicates that Paris should have looked like he was minus 16 to minus 6 years old when he doomed Troy by making the Judgement of Paris, where Aphrodite promised to give him the most beautiful women in the world as his wife, and he gave her the Golden Apple, and gained the hatred of Hera and Athena. Thus I have always imagined that Paris was just an innocent, naive little boy when the gods persuaded him to rush in where they feared to thread - it is hard enough to figure out a way for Paris to even be born yet at the time of the Judgement, let alone be a teenager or the adult he is usually depicted as in art.
So in Greek myths Paris could have been a child at the Judgement of Paris and been a mere teenager years later when he ran away with Helen.
And it seems to me that Paris should always be depicted as a cute and adorable looking little boy at the time of the judgement of Paris, in movies and television shows about the Trojan War, and quite possibly as a teenager when he ran off with Helen. Or else characters can mention that Paris and other Trojan princes age much slower than other men and look young and handsome for decades longer, because of their divine ancestry.
added 06-14-2019: Here is a link to a discussion of the ages of Achilles and Paris at the end of the Trojan War: [url] https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1995/how-old-were-paris-and-achilles-at-the-time-of-the-trojan-war [/url].
If you look at statues and paintings of Paris in ancient and modern art, Paris usually looks very young, possibly 20 to 30, and sometimes looks like a teenager.
Those images of a young looking Paris often depict events in the last year of the Trojan War, the last year of a war that lasted 10 years and began after Paris ran away with Helen according to Greek myths. Subtracting 10 years from Paris's apparent 20 to 30 years, he should have looked like he was only 10 to 20 in the first year of the Trojan War.
But there's more! After Paris killed Achilles, the Greeks sent for Neoptolemus or Pyrrhus, son of Achilles, to fight against Troy. Achilles's mother Thetis disguised him as a princess's maid to keep him from going to Troy, and Achilles got the princess pregnant with Neoptolemus.
So if Neoptolemus was at least 18 when he went to Troy, Thetis should have hidden Achilles at least 18 years before the end of the Trojan War, and thus 18 years before Paris looked about 20 to 30. Thus Paris should have looked about 2 to 12 years old when Achilles fathered Neoptolemus sometime after Paris ran away with Helen.
But there's more! Achilles looked like a girl when when he spawned Neoptolemus and should have been young, but old enough to fight, so should have been at least 18. So Achilles should have been born 36 years before the end of the Trojan War, and his parents, King Peleus and the minor goddess Thetis, should have been married even earlier.
All the gods attended the marriage of Peleus and Thetis, and Eris, goddess of discord, appeared with a Golden Apple for "the fairest of all", and Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite each claimed it and threatened vengeance if they didn't get it. Almighty Zeus feared to touch that hot potato, and found a mortal to sucker into doing it for him and face the vengeance of the two spurned goddesses - Paris, fairest of mortals. Continued
All those deaths were mostly on the heads of the Greeks who sailed to Troy with the purpose of capturing the city and committing a lot of atrocities and war crimes against the Trojans.
Also, the leaders of Troy could have decided to send Helen back and maybe punish Paris and that might have been enough to save Troy from invasion and eventual destruction. So the destruction of Troy is also on their heads.
And in Greek myths, Helen didn't escape with Paris. Instead, in the fall of Troy, her third husband Deiphobus battled Menelaus and Odysseus and was killed and mutilated, and then Helen returned to Sparta with Menelaus.
There are two different ancient stories about the fate of Paris. Both say that after Paris killed Achilles. the Greeks called on Philoctetes, former companion of Hercules, with the poisoned arrows of Hercules. In an archery fight with Philoctetes, Paris was struck by several poisoned arrows.
One ancient story says that Paris escaped and sent for his first wife Oenome, daughter of a river god, to heal his terrible pain caused by the blood of the Hydra poisoning the arrows. Oenome refused at first, but later changed her mind and set off to heal Paris with her supernatural skills. But she was too late, and when she reached the funeral pyre of Paris she threw herself into it to burn with his corpse.
A synopsis of the Greek epic cycle about the Trojan war says that Philoctetes killed Paris, and then Menelaus came and mutilated the corpse of Paris.
Those versions may have been the revenge fantasies of storytellers whose wives had run away with other men.
And remember that if Paris didn't choose Aphrodite and run away with Helen as Aphrodite promised him and pushed him into doing, but had chosen Athena or Hera instead, the two spurned goddesses would have raised up enemies to invade and destroy Troy and kill Paris. Troy was doomed by the decision to have Paris judge the goddesses. And my understanding of mythical chronology makes me think Paris must have been a child when the gods made him doom Troy by making the choice that mighty Zeus himself didn't dare make.
Woodrow and Gus believe that stealing from them is wrong, but are not so opposed to themselves stealing for other people.
Actually many people believe that something is always wrong, but have a set of one or more types of persons that rule doesn't apply to, even though it should. Robbery is wrong, unless you steal from ______. Murder is wrong, unless you kill ______. and so on.
So apparently Woodrow and Gus, as Texians, hate Mexicans and believe that robbing Mexicans and possibly killing some in the process is right. Or maybe they only believe it is right to steal from one particular Mexican, the one whose livestock they rustled.
Making exceptions to rules that should protect everyone is a common ethical flaw among humans.
in the 90 minute "The Fort Pierce Story" Chris Hale says there are 300 people, 2 thirds women and children, in his wagon train facing possible attack by Cheyenne.