Just a friendly remider that prostitution is paid rape
And if you consume prostitution you are a monster.
You mean "when" :-)
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MovieChat Forums > Last Night in Soho (2021) Discussion > Just a friendly remider that prostitutio...
Just a friendly reminder that you’re wrong. Prostitution is not rape, it’s sex for money, and entirely consensual.
No, it's not. Most women are not there willingly but coerced by circumstances, poverty and/or pimps.
Sex is really consensual when both parties want it, desire it and enjoy it, and when both of them are peers and are equally capable of establishing boundaries and are free, not when one of them is suffering physically and psychologically but don't have more options and the other one is in a complete position of power.
Nope, you’re adding a load of suppositions and attempting to rewrite the dictionary, much like when Wokists call anyone who doesn’t buy into the bullshit narrative of BLM, or accept mass illegal immigration, ‘racist’.
Prostitution is consensual and therefore not rape. The woman doesn’t have to sell her body, she’s choosing to, and she can stop at any time.
Most women there do not choose it and can't stop.
shareOf course they can ‘stop’, you’re insulting them by presuming they have no agency. They’re human beings, they have free will, clearly for them the benefits outweigh any negatives so they choose to continue.
A woman who gets jumped by some guys who force themselves on her has no choice, she is a rape victim. That’s entirely different to a sex worker and you know it.
He does not WANT to know it. I’ve had many friends who were sex workers, in various fields of sex work. None of them was impoverished or coerced. And, yes, all but 1 of them were women. The OP is an asshole.
shareHe’s regurgitating some bullshit woke/feminist propaganda and using an obnoxious ‘just a reminder’ framing.
It’d be like a flat earther blurting out ‘Just a reminder the earth is in fact flat’. It’s like, no, no it isn’t ya dildo.
It’d be like a flat earther blurting out ‘Just a reminder the earth is in fact flat’. It’s like, no, no it isn’t ya dildo.
😂 share
No, they can't. In various studies you find that >80% of the women want to leave that life but can't because they are trafficked/homeless/drug addicts/disabled/exploited by a "boyfriend", etc, etc. Every person has "agency" but that doesn't mean the context can't really force us into things.
Also, how does the "Jhon" know if a woman is a trafficking victim or not? Men usually don't care
So then if >80% of prostitutes are raped then your title is incorrect. You would need to have 100% to be able to state that prostitution = paid rape. So your voluntarily exaggerated title is nothing more than a sophism trying to manipulate opinion with a vulgar generalization. Big fail. 👏
shareWell put.
shareYes they can, they’re doing a job, voluntarily, and they can stop whenever they want. It’s possible that there might be some situations where a girl is being forced by some evil pimp but that’s what the law is for - go report them - it’s still a choice.
In any case it’s sex work, not ‘rape’. Rape is a serious matter and you’re undermining its seriousness by trying to crowbar all sex work into the category of rape. I suggest you free yourself from whatever perverse ideology has made you believe this obvious nonsense.
Most women can't stop whenever they want, even if they took the decision to be in the sex trade by themselves. Women in the sex trade are very discriminated against, many of them come from underprivileged backgrouds, are irregular immigrants, don't have enough education, don't have job experience, don't have connections. It is totally not easy to find other jobs.
The law is there but human trafficking still exists and is a business that generates millions of dollar in all the world, but no one cares because prostituted women are not considered human but things for men. Men think that's what some women are for.
And having a job, by your definition, is slavery ...
Do you think that I'm dying to wake up every morning at 6 and go to work???
Horseshit, it’s still a choice and you cannot escape that fact, and sex-work still isn’t ‘rape’.
And what are these ‘irregular (read: ILLEGAL) immigrants’ doing in our countries? They shouldn’t even be here.
Your sexist comments about men are also noted.
No, you have people telling the person asking question what they think the are supposed to say. It is a problem with any study where you are asking people about things that are taboo, you don't get the truth you get what the respondent thinks is the right answer. Unless you are some woman held in a sex traffic ring you are free to stop anytime you want. The vast majority of whores are doing it because they want the easy money.
shareMost women in prostitution are not free to stop anytime they want. They have many obstacles, like the risk of homelessness, drug addiction, lack of other job opportunities, irregular migration status, lack of job experience, etc.
shareBullshit.
Unless they are the victim of sex traffickers, any drug addiction is because of their own choices. You choose to start doing drugs their is a price you pay for that, same with when you decide to drop out of school or any other decision that puts you in the fast lane to nowhere. Those are choices made by the women and if the consequences are limited options to make money that isn't societies problem that is the woman and her parents that failed to teach her the correct path to go down. And even if the parents provided every bit of guidance the woman still could have made bad choices. Choices, like actions have consequences so stop trying to make excuses and put the blame on something beyond the woman. Women are just like men in their ability to make good or bad decisions. But to say that most women in prostitution are not free to stop is complete bullshit. The reality is there are lots of non-profits that provide ways for women to turn their life around, many more than you will find for men if you actually look at them. But you want to pretend women have no choice. Sorry but that just isn't true.
Ok, many women may be in that position because of bad decisions, but it still makes consent flawed when a person is forced to have sex with many men without having realistic options of not doing that. My point is that prostitution is (most of the times, almost all of the times) not fully consensual. Even women who once decided it (many of them while underage. Some studies show that near 50% of women in prostitution started while underage), get trapped in it and cannot exit.
Sure, you can pay a person to cut himself an arm and give it you, and if that person is desesperate enough they can accept so theoretically it would be a consensual transaction. Would that be ethical?
Actually I saw a guy cut off a finger on purpose because he wanted to collect the workers comp money that he knew would be paid to him if he had an accident on the job. He wasn't offered money to do it specifically, he simply knew that he would be paid X amount of money if he lost a finger and so he put his hand on the table where they were cutting wood for the pallets and wham. One press on the ripsaw and it was gone.
Now to me that wasn't ethical, but it was all on him. He decided to game the system. Some of these women decide to game the system by being hookers because they think it is easy money compared to working a low paying job 40 hours a week. Well, sometimes gaming the system isn't the best option long term, just ask the guy that has 1 less finger.
Is not ethical to pay a desesperate person do harm themselves. With ethical, I don't think it from the prostituted or mutilated person perspective, but from the buyer perspective. The buyer is taking advantage of the situation.
Again, many women do not have more options. They are not really choosing freely.
At some point they made. free choice, the fact that it might have been years before they started working as a prostitute doesn't negate that fact. You continually ignore the fact that the vast majority of women that in your words have no other option, at one time had an option to take advantage of the free public school system to get an education. They decided not to and often times dropped out of school... that was bad choice and if it is the reason they ended up with no options better than being a hooker, then sorry but unless someone put a gun to their head and forced them to drop out of school, it was their choice and whether they suffer from that poor choice for the rest of their life it was still on them not society.
shareYou truly have no idea how drug addiction gets started. Often times it is because someone has a medical issue or an injury that occurs. Then once they get on the medication it then starts from that. You can't assume that all drug addicts started by making a choice saying I want to start doing drugs today.
shareIt is always a choice. Just because a doctor gives you a prescription for painkillers doesn't mean you have to use them. I've had more prescriptions given to me for painkillers than I can count but I never filled them. No need to make excuses for poor choices, just be honest.
shareNot always that simple. What if you have a devastating injury that causes intolerable pain? Sometimes even though it may be a choice it isn't simple. Rather than lock people up for drug addiction they should be offered help. It should be treated as a mental problem not a legal one.
shareFYI, Miss “Expert,” women in The Life do not call their customers “Johns.” Only Squares—people NOT in The Life—use that word. Working girls call a mark a “Trick.” Squares think that “a trick” is what a working girl does. No. A trick is WHO a working girl does.
The girls also say, “There is nothing lower than a Trick.”
I’m so glad the OP has read a lot of studies. All my statements are based on primary source research, in other words, what I’ve learned in real fucking life.
While we’re on the subject, there’s a line that shows up in a lot of movies that have scumbags in them: “It’s impossible to rape a hooker/stripper.” That line makes my blood boil. No, motherfucker! It’s as possible to commit rape on an exotic dancer as it is on a nurse or a teacher! Almost no one understands the kind of heart and soul a sex worker has are the same heart and soul that you and I have.
I know that but if I use that language most of men here won't understand. I also have personally met women that exited the sex trade and say that for them it was violent and abusive. I choose to believe them.
shareMost of us would like better jobs but.have to.put up with what we can get.
shareYes, but your job and mine is not being penetrated in all our holes by hundreds of men you are not attracted to (or you are even disgusted by), some of them violent, dirty, three times your age, etc. Your job doesn't requerie your asshole to be used by men for their pleasure despite your discomfort/pain/dissasociation.
shareYou can't take the words from a study like that as being worth a shit. People that are engaged in something that they know is illegal or perceived as illegal have a very high likelihood of lying and saying what they think they are supposed to say. The fact that these women don't stop even though no one is holding a gun to their head is compelling evidence that they don't really want to stop.
shareThis is not found only in the US. Cross country studies find the same.
I'm from a country where prostitution is accepted and legal and we still find the same.
By that ridiculous logic everyone is a slave because their need for money to buy food is the only reason they work for an employer.
shareHaving sex you don't want to have is not the same as doing anything else. That's why rape is traumatic for women but being forced to serve in a McDonalds once isn't.
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I went to a small high school and there was a Beautiful Aremenian Women almost exactly like Ana Kasparian in every way from her exquisite beauty to her unhinged loudmouth liberal rants.
I caught up with her some time years after High School and she informed me she was a sex worker and she was riding around in a huge SUV, throwing money around like it was nothing and just living the life most of us can only dream of.
She quit the business and used the money she made in "Donations" to open up her own Boutique and was Heralded on the Local News in the early days of Covid as a "Covid Success Story" for saving all the money she made "Working as a Casino Teller" and opening up her own business.
A story to show all of us that you can save money from a "normal job" and start your own business in these Covidian Times. Of course to us that know her it just shows there is only really one way to "Get Ahead" so to speak.
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SJWs are disgusting, delusional monsters!
shareVery true, and because they’ve deluded themselves into thinking they’re the ‘good guys’ (no matter how viciously they attacks their targets) there’s no limit to how appallingly they treat others.
those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis
Proper feminists would have defended prostitution 10 years ago. Nonsense like OP has made it increasingly challenging for me to lean left these days.
shareThe Left have always been wrong but in the last decade they’ve gone totally batshit insane and are trying to destroy culture from the top down. I used to love movies until the Left sunk their poisonous fangs into Hollywood.
shareA have a very conservative friend who reaches out to me occasionally cause he'll be arguing with someone on the left, and he wants to know if he's misunderstanding since I'm not really conservative. And vast majority of the time now, I'm like...no, the other person's an idiot, just regurgitating talking points that he never thought about, and don't hold up to scrutiny. Seeing these attempts at faux-intellectualization combined with cinematic entertainment is the shit cherry on top.
shareI am not conservative or religious. I am a feminist and I can clearly see that prostitution is patriarchal violence against women. Sex is voluntary and free when both parties desire it, not when one party with economic privilege take advantage of the other party desesperation and poverty.
shareYou pulled the ‘desperation and poverty’ out of your ass. These women want easy money so they offer men what they helplessly crave - sex. It’s as simple as that.
shareShow your sources telling that all women in prostitution are free and just want easy money.
First of all, prostitution is never easy. That's why many of them have traumas and many experiences of violence from Johns and Pimps.
Here is a serious study: https://i4.cmsfiles.com/eaves/2012/11/Breaking-down-the-barriers-a37d80.pdf
Key findings:
1.The vast majority of women in the sample who wanted to exit were able to leave
prostitution relatively quickly when they received appropriate support.
2. Having a criminal conviction was identified as a major barrier to exiting. 49% of the women
had criminal convictions for prostitution related offences.
3. Women involved in indoor prostitution faced a range of barriers to exiting including,
problematic alcohol and drug use (61%), housing (55%), childhood violence (67%).
4. Violence from buyers was frequently reported as a motivating factor for women to exit
from prostitution. 61% of women in the sample reported experiences of violence from buyers
of sexual services.
So, you are the one getting assumptions from your ass.
You are probably a man so you don't know and can't tell what is proper feminism or not.
shareI disagree with you, but also with people who label your viewpoint as left wing. You are expressing Victorian morality; it is progressives who invented the nonjudgemental term “sex worker”.
Like many other kinds of labor, it can be coerced, or it can be chosen freely because someone prefers to earn money that way. It depends on circumstances, context.
Coerced sex is called rape.
shareIndeed. The coerced version is rape. But my contention is that not all sex work is coerced, just like not all diamond mining or shoe manufacturing jobs are.
shareIt's not only direct and physical coercion. People can be coerced by poverty or extreme conditions. Free choice is when you have other options, but many people in prositution don't have more options.
You can say not "all" but most of it is like that and clients cannot differenciate.
Don't forget that if you so much look in the direction of a woman without consent is rape.
Guess what: prostitutes are not just consensual, they are explicitely in the market providing a service.
Now I guess that simply working is rape and slavery: I'm coerced in working by mortgage, credit card payments and bills.
GTFO.
You may be coerced in work if you have no other options, are in extreme conditions (like having a risk of homelessness or deportation, or are being exploited by a third party
That's probably common, but other jobs are not undesired sex with many men, some of them violent/creepy/dirty, etc. Being coerced into cleaning floors is not the same as being coerced into sex.
The problems is that generally speaking in both situations is not coerced but consensual, it's a service exchanged for money.
They can (the ones that are not traffiked) do a different job, aven as you said cleaning floors. It's their choice to do a different job. Apparently around a third are coerced.
"More than a third of women interviewed post-decriminalization reported that they had been coerced (PLRC, 2008, p. 46). The highest rate of coercion by sex buyers was reported by pimp-con- trolled or “managed” women in massage parlor prostitution."
And btw, that IS ILLEGAL.
I believe Americans have this "freedom of choice" libertarian ideology so integrated, they are not even aware.
If a person is in extreme conditions of poverty, addiction, homelessness, is in a condition of vulnerability and therefore is not really free to choose. Additionally, if the person only has one choice, then that person is also not choosing at all.
To the third of women directly coerced by a pimp, you have to add the women that are not really free in choosing prostitution even though they are not being exploited by a third party.
But even you you decide not to do that, by your own logic, clients are never able to differenciate the pimped women so everytime they buy sex they may be victimizing a trafficked woman.
"If a person is in extreme conditions of poverty, addiction, homelessness, is in a condition of vulnerability and therefore is not really free to choose. Additionally, if the person only has one choice, then that person is also not choosing at all."
Again: that goes for ANY type of work. So are you arguing that work is slavery?
And AGAIN: that choice is still on the table between prostitution and cleaning floors. In this moment is HER choice which one she're doing. And it makes it consensual. WTF is that hard to understand??
"To the third of women directly coerced by a pimp, you have to add the women that are not really free in choosing prostitution even though they are not being exploited by a third party."
They ARE free. That's the point. They can choose anything else. Like, as you said, cleaning floors. They choose prostitution because they make more money.
"But even you you decide not to do that, by your own logic, clients are never able to differenciate the pimped women so everytime they buy sex they may be victimizing a trafficked woman."
With this I might agree. But I think that the more upscale the prostitute is it is less likely to be trafficked. I don't know because I don't use those services so my assumption might be wrong.
That may go for any work, but not all work is having undesired sex (forced by the circumstances). sex like that is often traumatic for women, and harmful both physically and mentally. Women in postitution always have a high risk of being murdered, beaten, tortured by men, even in countries where it is legal. Other risks include pregnancies, STD, genital infections, vaginal or anal tears, and so on. It's also mentally damaging for women to be used by selfish men as sex objects while having to pretend they like those men despite them literally feeling disgust for them. Survivors report having disassociated or kept themselves high all the time to mentally cope with this.
(Notice how there are literally 0 women who previosly worked cleaning floors calling themselves "survivors" like there are many with prostitution. Notice how is extremely rare to be kidnaped or completely tricket to get into cleaning floors)
About the other point. Not all of them have the choice of cleaning floors. For example, many women are trapped in addictions or in mental illnesses and cannot hold a job like that. Some women are irregular immigrants and won't be hired in regular jobs. Some cleaning jobs require experience or basic education or literacy. Many women will be discriminated and unable to find other jobs because they can't explain gaps in their resume. Many situations occur in prostitution and all of them point that only women who are desesperate and very vulnerable end up there.
What is hard for you to understand is that millions of women in the world are literally coerced in prostitution, therefore the sex they have there is coerced and coerced sex is rape. You want to believe that all women are free to leave, but that's a male fantasy.
"What is hard for you to understand is that millions of women in the world are literally coerced in prostitution, therefore the sex they have there is coerced and coerced sex is rape. You want to believe that all women are free to leave, but that's a male fantasy."
What is hard for you to understand that not all of them are coerced. And that in the end for a LOT of them it is a choice.
Period.
Ok, we can both agree that both cases exist. Then my argument is that the "coerced" case is a lot more common than the "free" case.
share"Then my argument is that the "coerced" case is a lot more common than the "free" case."
I would like to see a proper statistic on that claim. But there's none.
Anyway, even with the coerced ones ... what would be your realistic solution?
And I mean real solution. Just "if men wouldn't go for them they wouldn't be forced to do so" doesn't cut it, because yes they wouldn't but ... they would do what? As you said they might not be able to do anything else. So ... just die in the streets? Are you going to take them all home and feed them?
so is hourly wages paid slavery? and hourly car rental paid theft?
shareOther jobs are not sex and sex is not like any other thing, specially when it is undesired. If that was the case, being raped would be like being forced to clean floors or to be a waitress. That's not the case.
In other jobs you don't have to be penetrated and you don't have the risks of STDs, pregnancy, physical violence from "clients" and pimps, etc.
and everyone desires to clean floors and scrub toilets and serve burgers?
you are using words interchangeably. you are using undesirable with not consenting, then trying to claim paid sex is rape. you aren't being clever. you are called out on your nonsense.
Yes you have these risks because sex work is illegal in the US. the black market breeds these issues
You are not understanding. We may do many other things forced by the economy or the circumstances, like cleaning floors, but that wouldn't be traumatic and extremely stressfull like undesired sex is. That's why being forced into sex has a lot of meaning for women: it is degrading, humiliating and physically and psychologically damaging. The same happens with prostitution, women exits the sex trade with a lot of pychological problems. The PSTD levels of prostituted women are the same or higher than the ones of men in the military going to war.
And those risks are the same when prostitution is legalized like in Germany, Holland or New Zealand. Many survivors of prostitution have talked about that. Like this woman: https://huschkemau.de/en/2021/05/22/does-legal-make-it-safe/
From a Survivor:
“I’m still dealing with the aftermath of being in prostitution. I suffer nightmares, flashbacks and am triggered by numerous things. I find it difficult to trust people, particularly men, and still struggle massively around sex. I still dissociate, and feel like I split off from myself."
There are studies, like this one, that find high prevalence of PSTD in prostituted women: http://prostitutionresearch.com/prostitution-trafficking-in-nine-countries-an-update-on-violence-and-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/
yes illegal sex trade brings in bad factors. legalizing prostution fixes man issues. like with weed.
share"We may do many other things forced by the economy or the circumstances, like cleaning floors, but that wouldn't be traumatic and extremely stressfull like undesired sex is."
Actually no. for me it would be the opposite ... cleaning floors IS more traumatic and extremely stressful than undesired sex.
For you. Not for most women.
You are probably a man, so you can't understand.
I doubt it.
But again: why the ones that are choosing to do it don't chose something different? Like cleaning floors?
We established that NOT ALL are coerced (apparently in USA most of them are NOT coerced) so why blame the client for rape if it's their choice to have sex instead of cleaning floors??
Specially when the ones that choose that life usually can choose the clients as well (again, my assumption).
In the USA most women are coereced. These are stories about the only place in your country where it is legal: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender
The women are so free, they call those places "pussy penitentiaries".
The truth is prostitution is degrading, humiliating, painful and violent and that's why coercion tipically plays in this. The vast majority of women with choices would choose other thing.
Only if it's part of human trafficking. 🤷♀️🤷♀️
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