MovieChat Forums > Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion > Kinda shocked to see so many complaints,...

Kinda shocked to see so many complaints, especially surrounding gender or race :/

posted 6 years ago by BruceBanner (59)
48 replies | jump to latest

*SPOILERS (obviously)*

I don't think people fully realise that these are movies, and actors are real life people who have lives outside of the MCU. Tony is getting OLD, Jeremy Renner is looking old in this, and a lot of others have committed massively to this franchise. Endgame was the perfect way to provide honourable exits for these actors without overly ruining the MCU.

Personally I liked many aspects of this movie, my only complaint is it crammed too much in. It feels as though we could have had an Infinity Wars Pt2 and then Endgame, they had a lot of ground to cover in this movie which contributed to a lot of it feeling at times a tad messy.

I think Ironman dying was great tbh, because he is getting old and needs to leave that role, and the entire franchise started with Ironman, and arguably a lot of the success is owed to Robert for propping up the MCU, he was consistently great in his role as IM.
I would have been happy to see Chris Evans keep on being Cap USA for a bit longer, I have no issues with BW dying, she had a great death and clearly wanted out of the MCU.

I like how Thor is with GOTG, he and Chris Pratt seem to have a great dynamic that they obviously want to continue on with, so there's lots to still look forward too imo.

We have to let older heroes pass the mantel on to newer ones. So what if one is black and another a women... seems a really bizarre thing that so many people are bumhurt by this. I honestly don't get it. My only issue with Falcon getting the shield is that I have found that actor and character a little flat at times (but then so was CE as Cap USA to begin with), I hope they give Sam Falcon some serious attention for a good solo movie for him to really develop that character, he has big shoes to fill.
Same could be said for IM, will be interesting to see who steps in the armour and continues in his place in future flicks (and no I don't think it will be Potts, she was just stepping up for the big fight, I don't think Gwyneth really wants to take that role on seriously. I mean she might do a single film to then pass it on properly to someone else, but multiple flicks with her as IW? Nah... I don't see it.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I think Rhody could be Iron Man, he's familiar with the tech about as much as Tony Stark was.

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

But then that would be two new black heroes and you know everyone couldn't handle that... :/

[–] whynotwriteme (7720) 6 years ago

Pepper or Tony's daughter as Iron Woman.

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

Either Pepper or Rhoadie could continue with the Iron Man story if anyone was interested, each has their own flying superhero suit.

And Cheadle and Paltrow are both good actors who can carry a film, and they cost less than Downey.

[–] alienzen (1931) 6 years ago

I guess you completely missed the meaning of the phrase "I am Iron Man".

[–] movienchill31 (223) 6 years ago

Yeah i don't get it either. Sam was the obvious and best choice considering the fact that Bucky was missing for years and was compromised.

[–] alanparsons (559) 6 years ago

Sam is not a super soldier. Bucky is.

[–] movienchill31 (223) 6 years ago

Sam wasn't compromised. Bucky was and maybe still is.

[–] alanparsons (559) 6 years ago

Spoiler alert, Captain America is a Hydra agent in one timeline of the comics. Being "comprimised" means nothing. Being a super soldier is what we deserve in a Captain America. Bucky has come a long way in these movies. He's gone through hell and back. He should be the new Captain.

[–] movienchill31 (223) 6 years ago

Cap didn’t go around killing innocent people. Bucky did.

[–] FFNogoodnik (775) 6 years ago

Being a super soldier is what we deserve in a Captain America.

[–] kuku (3510) 6 years ago

No, a person who helps the people and puts their needs first is what we deserve in a Captain America. That is what made Steve Rogers Captain America and that is what will make Sam Wilson Captain America.

That's not Captain America, that's 90% of superheros. It's the genre main trope.

Captain America is a representation of traditional value of American society. Sam is a black guy, and it doesn't make any sense to pass the role to him.

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 6 years ago

These are all stupid comments.

Superheroes require a PERSONALITY to be the character.

Superman has a specific story which says that a person brought up by kind and ethical people will produce a wonderful person. His parents are the reason he's no some super overlord.

So, no one can "fill in" for Superman if he's gone.

Batman is an insanely driven person fighting crime because his parents were murdered in front of him. So, his passion cannot be duplicated by another person wearing his suit. No matter their physical abilities and stuff, they cannot be Batman.

Marvel frequently does the opposite, yet has the same kind of characters.

Only a very intense and semi-crazy person is going to build a super suit and use it. Another kind of person is not going to put themselves on the line like that.

You cannot have another Captain America due to his very unique story and motivation. You could use his shield as a tribute but you can't be "Black" Captain America or whatever.

People who love comics don't just love the uniform of these characters but love the personality. That's because you feel like you know the person even though they aren't real. Comics and movies that kill off beloved characters fail.

[–] jekporkins (1970) 6 years ago

I think mainstream America is very tired of identity and gender politics. It's been shoved into the consciousness and is being shoved into the pages of Marvel comics. I'm all for everyone and everything, but I am also exhausted of how it is perpetually trying to change my already lenient opinions.

I get it - woman power - I didn't need a scene where suddenly every single female character shows up at the same time behind Captain Marvel. It made me roll my eyes for the only time in the film. They already did this in Infinity War and it was lame then.

Sam as Cap is fine until you think about it. He has zero superpowers/special abilities, is not Mr. America Values from the 1940s, doesn't know what to do with that sheild, and has none of the other characteristics that make Captain America what he is. Without his wings, he's just a normal guy. As Falcon I loved him. He was great. They should have just retired the character or started a new movie where the US government was trying out different people in the role, sort of what they did in the comics.

The problem I see going forward is the same problem the Marvel Comics line has had in the last decade. They are changing beloved characters to push an agenda, and it's absolutely pissing off us fans that have been reading the comics for years. Create new characters if you want but don't change Thor's gender or Captain America's skin color to appease people who really aren't asking for it. Don't shove gender politics down our throats in a comic book movie, where really what people want to see is people beating each other up with laser beams coming out of their hands.

[–] movienchill31 (223) 6 years ago

Seriously does it matter that they change the color of Cap or the Gender of Captain Marvel? It's a movie loosely based on comics. Get over it people. Either watch it or don't. But don't make 4 page dissertations complaining about Marvel changing genders or skin color. I prefer Chris Evans as Johnny the Human torch over Michael B Jordan's human torch, and I'm African American. Skin and Gender shouldn't matter to a REAL Marvel fan.

[–] jekporkins (1970) 6 years ago

Yeah, man, it does.

I reckon you didn't even read what I wrote. Skin and gender does matter when you are changing characters that have been around for 50+ YEARS. You love a character like Thor so much and all of a sudden they turn him into a woman? But according to you I should be okay with it because I'm a REAL Marvel fan. Who are you to tell me what I should like and what makes me a fan?

[–] movienchill31 (223) 6 years ago

Things change. Like I said if you don't like it don't watch it. Simple as that. And where are people getting that they are turning Thor into a woman? Thor will still be around, he just won't be the king of Asgard. They aren't transferring the role to a woman. And as for Captain America, in the comics he gave the shield to Sam/Falcon. So you claim you are a fan of the comics, but you dislike that he gave his shield to the person he was supposed to give it to. Who cares if the character is black.

[–] sokar (2098) 6 years ago

In Marvel comics in 2014 they changed Thor (male) to Thor (female), a year after release it was shown that female Thor was in fact Jane Foster. Thor is his name taken from norse mythology it is not a mantle or costume that can be passed on.

Anyone who is worthy can wield Mjolnir but literally calling a woman Thor just so they can try and make her popular is lazy writing no matter how much cancer story they put in it. They even tried it again with Thor girl. As you can imagine that didn't last long.

The rumour mill is that the MCU will follow Marvel comics which means going completely woke which has almost put Marvel comics on the verge of going out of business.

Even Captain Marvel was a man before changing it and guess what it doesn't sell and needs to be rebooted constantly and again quite recently.

There are loads of examples which are just as bad. Hawkgirl, Lady Clayface, x-23, Miss Martian, She Thing, American Dream. They are not even trying.

These gender swapped characters never work because it is forced upon the reader. They basically say "you liked the male version so you must like the female version" , If you don't you are branded racist/sexist. Unlike original female charcaters that are enjoyed and loved, i wonder why that is. Female heroes that naturally evolve vs female heroes that are thrust upon you to fit whatever current agenda they are pushing.

Everything is being gender and race swapped for no other reason than to tick a box from a diversity checklist. It is lazy, condescending and if i was a black or female actor/actress i woud turn these parts down and be disgusted as they are just being used as virtue signalling moment to say hey look we have a black guy/woman.

[–] movienchill31 (223) 6 years ago

Well until they actually come out and say that Thor will be played by a woman, I will continue to enjoy Chris Hemsworth. Again I don't see a problem with it, but to each his own.

[–] jekporkins (1970) 6 years ago

You say to each their own after "Skin and Gender shouldn't matter to a REAL Marvel fan." Quite the contradiction.

[–] whynotwriteme (7720) 6 years ago

They know diverse new character just won't sell so they have to steal the identities of established white male heroes and ride the shredded coattails of their success until even that dies out.

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

Um maybe you're looking a bit too much into it? I don't mind a 'girl power' moment, it doesn't tick me off... why does it tick you off? Male superhero no one batters an eye, female superhero... "now wait just a minute here!"

I think they are changing stuff because actors want OUT, they want their lives back and focus on other movies where they can flex their acting skills differently without being constrained to precontractual agreements.

Sam is a weird choice for Cap A, not because he's black, but just because he's not supped up. Storywise I know very little about him, which is why I said they will need to work hard on giving us a good origins or better understanding of who Sam is.

All good things come to an end. We just can't have RD and CE as these hereoes indefinitely, I think you struggle with that concept, and because we need to get others to fill in the shoes/suit/shield all of a sudden it's because of gender and identity politics? Really?! :/

[–] horrorfan000 (2307) 6 years ago

Tend to agree.Their dumbing these characters worth down to the suits they wear.You can't just for instance pass off Batmans suit to another person and suddenly their Batman.Batman is much more than a suit.Batman is Bruce Waynes tragic backstory.It's Waynes dark motivation that drives him.Sam's a great character and i love him as Falcon but he isn't Captain America just because he wears Steve's suit.

[–] FFNogoodnik (775) 6 years ago

Sam as Cap is fine until you think about it. He has zero superpowers/special abilities, is not Mr. America Values from the 1940s, doesn't know what to do with that sheild, and has none of the other characteristics that make Captain America what he is. Without his wings, he's just a normal guy. As Falcon I loved him. He was great. They should have just retired the character or started a new movie where the US government was trying out different people in the role, sort of what they did in the comics.

I did think about it and Sam puts the interests of others before his own. Sam ran the group therapy sessions in Winter Soldier and when Steve, in Endgame, felt he the need to help HE ran therapy sessions. How can you say that Sam "has none of the other characteristics that make Captain America what he is" when Steve essentially does what Sam did. Steve looked at Sam as a role model.

[–] alanparsons (559) 6 years ago

"Kinda shocked to see people getting sick and tired of leftist agenda being forced into our movies"

[–] kuku (3510) 6 years ago

LOL

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

lol

[–] Galactus03 (4373) 6 years ago

But they did ruin the MCU....with flipping inconsistent time travel...

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

I had strong suspicions they would use TT as a way to fix all this, and that's a problem in itself. My main concern is it would be rushed, and it was kinda. If they split this movie into two parts and handles the TT stuff better, it could have been good. But we had a few loopholes that are a bit hard to ignore because 3hr runtime is enough basically.

[–] Galactus03 (4373) 6 years ago

It could have been a much easier fix than time travel but they chose not to go that way. There was no reason to say 5 years later after they killed Thanos. In fact leaving Thanos on that farm and killing him was big mistake. The comic was much better. They should have followed that story a bit more.

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

Ok, Thanos wins, 50% dead, how do they fix this without TT? Curious to know...

[–] Galactus03 (4373) 6 years ago

Are you a comic book reader??? First off they should never have made Thanos so weak after the use of the gauntlet. There were so many ways the story could have gone. The way they went pretty much ruined the whole universe they created. I now see why all the shows got canned...

[–] wickerman1271 (946) 6 years ago

Steve Rogers is Captain America as Bruce Wayne is Batman period , i have the right to complain if they change that , i would also complain if he passed the shield to Bucky ,it's not about the race or the gender , it's about the hero's alter ego.
People say "but they did that in the comics" , that's why i stopped reading Marvel comics a long time ago.

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

Well... so what... more reboots. CE wants to leave so now we have to find an alternative Steve Rogers?... ew... nah... I think they are doing the right thing, just not sure about Sam is all.

[–] wickerman1271 (946) 6 years ago

Why not ? What are they going to do when they run out of actors that play the MCU characters ? Shut it down? I really doubt it considering all the billions they are making with these movies.

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

Hence why ending a linage and starting new ones with a continuation is probably a better (financial) course of action rather than constant reboots .

[–] alienzen (1931) 6 years ago

For the last 19 movies not a single character in the MCU has been recast. Suddenly recasting all of the characters would be a horrilbe idea. Chris evens is Steve Rogers. Downey is Iron Man. end of story.

[–] BruceBanner (59) 6 years ago

Yup.