Steven Spielberg's 'West Side Story' reimagined a key character as transgender - West Side Story (2021) Discussion

[–] Ranb (9616) 3 years ago

Why would it not fit? Transgendered people were not unknown back then.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

One must bear in mind, however, that, back in the 1950's and the 1960's, as well as most of the 1970's and 1980's, transgendered people had to hide who they really were. Otherwise, they would've been beaten to a bloody pulp, especially in poorer, rougher and tougher inner city neighborhoods.

reply

[–] Ranb (9616) 3 years ago

They were not all hiding. Some of them were brave enough to expose themselves which is why society has slowly decided to emerge from the dark ages. It is much less fashionable to just kill people for being gay or transgendered today.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

I bet plenty of them got harassed, badly beat up, or worse, to boot.

reply

[–] CupidDeLocke (277) 2 years ago

It’s now fashionable to be transgender to the point that there’s been a 5000% increase in self-identifying trans individuals, over 90% of them being girls aged 12-22. Nothing progressive about a social contagion based on rigid beliefs about what constitutes male and female behavior.

reply

[–] Ranb (9616) 2 years ago

Where do you get your numbers from? Are you suggesting that self-identifying should be prohibited?

reply

[–] christomacin (4656) 3 years ago

"Nothing wrong with actual Spanish language and casting actual Puetro Ricans, it fits the story. blah blah blah"

Why would there be anything wrong with that... if it fits the story (and if the actors are up to it, of course)? In what context does the foreign language appear in West Side Story Redux and could there perhaps be some artistic reason for not supplying a translation? If Spielberg went out of his way to make the film incompressible by not translating something then that would be woke. If the actors were chosen solely for their ethnicity and were shitty actors that would possibly qualify as woke.

Question: Have you seen the film to know whether if fits the story or not or if the acting was incompetent? Although Spielberg is far from my favorite director, he is technically a skilled and savvy film-maker who generally gets good performances from his actors, so I find these claims dubious without proof. There were was at least one scenes in Schindler's List were the German language was not translated. It may have been manipulative and inconsistent to do so (one of the reasons I'm wary of Spielberg) but it was done for a reason and was quite effective and heightening intensity of the Warsaw Uprising sequence. I suspect he had a reason for leaving the Spanish untranslated here.

Problem: I can think of numerous films, some of them quite famous, which didn't provide translation from a foreign language to English in some scenes. This approach has worked dramatically in some films but not others. You have to judge them on a case by case basis... but this requires actually viewing the film.

reply

[–] ReelReviews14 (1220) 3 years ago

No, I haven't seen Woke Side Story. Why would I want to watch a remake of a iconic musical from Hollywood's golden age?

The remake uses the same time period as the original movie anyway, so what is the point?

The nicest thing I can say about Woke Side Story is that it doesn't look AS BAD as the dreadful Annie remake from a few years ago (where they race swapped all the characters but of course left the villain of the story white anyway) Harold Gray is probably STILL spinning in his grave over that one. I wish they'd "reboot" that entire franchise just so they can go back to the original comic strip source material and ignore decades of increasingly inferior retreads of the Broadway musical.

reply

[–] christomacin (4656) 3 years ago

I am not really particularly interested in seeing it either, but being woke and being unnecessary aren't the same reason. I'm not claiming I know what the flaws of the film are before hand, I just have no burning desire to pay to see it. For me it's more Why Side Story than Woke Side Story. It could have the most unwoke movie ever made it still would probably be unnecessary. I think the Spanish thing sounds more like a political football people are kicking about - but then I'd have to see the film to be sure of that either way. It's just that I can think of too many examples of foreign languages not being translated for this to suddenly be a convincing argument against this particular film. The two Godfather films were a lot more Italian than this film sounds Spanish if we're going to go this route.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

Yes, but they should have made a more unlikely character transgender.

This is not a good message to tell girls that merely because they don't match the gender stereotype for females, that they are automatically transgender.

What's wrong with a "tomboy" who knows she's a girl, is disgusted by genital mutilation, but just prefers to be butch and aggressive, not like a girly girl?

The liberal establishment is confusing the hell out of kids. Why can't a tomboy say "I am who I am, and I don't want some mad doctor messing with my body and my genitals! F**k off. I'm a tomboy! I'm a girl!"

reply

[–] marktayloruk (2502) 3 years ago

It was said in the original that Anybodys was a girl.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

That's one of the reasons that I prefer the old, original 1961 film version of West Side Story--because Anybodys was a tough girl who proved that she was able to take care of herself.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

Tomboy and transgender are two different things. They have a clear agenda here.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

Imho, anybody who's so uptight about his/her gender that they're willing to have their body mutilated obviously has severe emotional problems.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

Self mutilation implies extreme self hate. I cannot help but believe that a male or female who wants their body disfigured has a deep seated mental illness which sex change surgery cannot heal.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

That's exactly the point, OnantheBarbarian. It's rather sad, too.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

There are transgender people who do not undergo genital mutilation. I'd say if a man wants to wear a dress and lives as a woman because he feels more comfortable in that gender role, oh well, that's his choice. There is probably nothing mentally ill about that. It's just individual choice. We are all different.

I'd say the severe dysfunction comes into play when healthy working organs are cut up my mad doctors and turned into nonworking replicas of something else. Healthy people learn to live with their healthy bodies, not mutilate them.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

I beg to differ with you here, ConanTheBarbarian. A man who does not undergo genital mutation/operation(s) but merely dresses in womens' clothing is what's called a transvestite, not a transgender. There's a very important difference there. I'll also add that the vast majority of transvestites are straight men, who are married, have regular sex lives, and, for some reason(s), just get their kicks out of cross-dressig.

Transgenders, or transsexuals, do undergo the genital-altering operations, and have to also take various medications, as well.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

Not true:

The 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey found 61 percent of trans and gender nonconforming respondents reported having medically transitioned, and 33 percent said they had surgically transitioned. About 14 percent of trans women and 72 percent of trans men said they don’t ever want full genital construction surgery.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/5/13/17938114/transgender-people-transitioning-surgery-medical

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

There's a difference between a transsexual/transgender and a transvestite.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

I realize that. Transvestites just want to play dress up.

Transgender folks want to be the opposite sex. But most of them never have surgery on their genitals. You have to remember that sex change surgery has only been around about 50 years and it only creates nonworking facsimiles of vaginas or penises. Transgender folks have been around for thousands of years and most of them make do with what they have.

I'm queer myself. I know many trannies. Most of them do not let the doctors touch their genitalia. Most take hormones and have facile plastic surgery. But the complete physical sex change is still not universal.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

Well, I was under the impression that transgenders have to do both--take certain medicines and to have the operation(s) on their genitals, because that's where a person's hormones originate.

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

I'm addressing this concern and question to all who have posted on this thread.

The actor/actress who plays Anybodys in the Spielberg film is confusing to me.

Was Iris Menas, the actor who plays Anybodys, born female or male? The actor goes by two different names......Ezra Menas and Iris Menas. That is confusing to me. Maybe after the transition, the actor's name is Iris.

Is the Anybody's character supposed to be born a girl but transitioned to a male in the Spielberg film? There is one line in the film during the "Gee, Officer Krupke" number that Arab delivers......he calls Anybodys a "dickless wonder".

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

I do know that in the original 1961 film version, that Anybodys is still a girl, but is also a tomboy. It's also more obvious when, after Ice says to Anybody, "Hey! Ya done good, buddy-boy!", that she gets all dreamy-eyed. I think Anybody's may have fallen in love with Ice.

I tend to think that while Anybody was born a female, but became a transgender in the Spielberg film version of West Side Story is possible, but maybe she was a lesbian. Who knows?

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

@ mplo......the reason I bought up those questions is because, after reading countless comments from people on YouTube and reading comments from posters on two different movie sites, is that someone said the Anybodys character in the 2021 film is played by an actor who transitioned the other way than the character in the film. I'm just trying to wrap my head around that.

reply

[–] Geiri (862) 3 years ago

Well thats basically what the whole gender ideology and transgenderism is about. Gender stereotypes.

In the 1950s a girl having typical masculine characteristics meant she was a tomboy. Now it means she's really a boy and needs to be "fixed" with hormones and surgeries.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

I Agree. If gender is a social construct as they argue, then why have genital surgery to conform to a social construct?

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

What's wrong with being a straight tough girl who can take care of herself, who can say,
"I am who I am." ? Nothing, as far as I'm concerned, because there are girls and women like that in real life. I've known afew.

reply

[–] AviAAksenazi (669) 3 years ago

I hated the film.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

I hear you, and feel you, AviAAksenazi! I tried watching Spielberg's film version of West
side Story myself not too long ago, and I could not bring myself to watch the whole thing. Remakes very seldom, if ever, come out well, and the 2021 film version of West Side Story, imho, is no exception.

reply

[–] Galactus03 (4373) 2 years ago

Bullshit. I just watched it and it's every bit as good as the 1961 version. You are too stuck on the anybody character.....

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 2 years ago

Frankly, Galactus03, I could not care less what you think of my opinions. I stand by everything that I've said on here.

reply

[–] Galactus03 (4373) 2 years ago

Good toy don't have to care any less. It's good enough to that we all know your opinion is stupid...😃

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 2 years ago

You're calling my opinion stupid just because it differs from yours, eh?!? Speak for yourself, Galactus03.

reply

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

I watched the original a few months ago and when it got to the character of Anybodys (actually, until now I didn't realize that was the character's name), I remarked at the time "This character will probably be transgender in the new one." I suppose that might have been what was presented in Spielberg's film,but it's not like any great statement is being made on the subject. Tony Kushner didn't give her some speech to say defending transgendered people. Some people might actually be confused and think Anybodys is male the Jets didn't want around because he was too girlie. People are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

reply

[–] ReelReviews14 (1220) 3 years ago

The fact the character is explicitly stated on screen as transgender (even if it's a "blink and you'll miss it" moment easily thrown-away, so Spielberg can appease the communist Chinese censors overseas), is proof the film is made to appeal to SJWs and is CORRECTLY mocked as "Woke Side Story". There's zero sense to include an "openly transgender" character for a film set in the mid 1950s. If he wanted a transgender character so badly, Spielberg could have at least have the screenwriter think creatively and update the setting so it takes place in present-day NYC. There's other silly crap too, like apparently they added numerous black characters that weren't in the original, like some Jets gang member named "Abe". Sure, there WERE plenty of black people in 1950s NYC, and probably numerous gang members were black, but the WHOLE point of West Side Story is that it was an ETHNIC CONFLICT between an ALL-WHITE GANG and an ALL-PUERTO RICAN GANG. These gangs didn't tolerant members that weren't their own ethnic group. If they did so, it would have defeated the whole purpose of the conflict in the story when the white gang members gets a Puetro Rican girlfriend. Spielberg was just trying to virtue signal the hell of this film and prove his woke cred with the SJWs. I can imagine him telling the casting director "we need more queer people of color in the Jets... and hey, can we have an openly Muslim character too? I don't want them going after me for being Jewish again"

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

The conflict was not strictly ethnic or "racial" as you call it. It was nationalist, American-born versus Puerto Rican immigrant.

The Jets were not a white supremacist gang. Lol. It was a neighborhood gang and could have very easily had a black member or two if they were from the 'hood. The Sharks being Puerto Rican could have included black Puerto Ricans as well.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

The conflict between the Jets and Sharks, however, was about race, ethnicity, and territory.

reply

[–] Boricanator (1440) 3 years ago

No one is saying the Jets were white supremacist. But back then gangs stuck to their own. It was the same with the Irish and Italians.

And there is a difference between American Blacks and Puerto Rican blacks. The former would be less likely to join a white European gang than the latter joining a Puerto Rican gang.

If anything, American Blacks are more likely to be hanging around Puerto Ricans in New York.

West Side Story was all about race. Puerto Ricans were seen as people of color.

reply

[–] Crapshoot (150) 3 years ago

For the record, transgender people did exist back in the 1950s.

reply

[–] ReelReviews14 (1220) 3 years ago

For the record, they didn't exist back in the original 1950s Broadway musical version of West Side Story.

reply

[–] Crapshoot (150) 3 years ago

You used the 50s setting to try and make a point about how it doesn’t make sense for there to be a trans character in the story. I’m just pointing out that transgender people weren’t unheard of back then.

reply

[–] ReelReviews14 (1220) 3 years ago

If they remade Rebel without a Cause and rewrote the main character to be vegan and Buddhist, I'm sure you'd justify it by pointing out that vegans and Buddhists both existed in the 1950s.

reply

[–] Crapshoot (150) 3 years ago

Unless the main character of this movie is transgender, your comparison falls flat.

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

Christine Jorgensen was a very famous transgender, male to female back in the early 50s.

reply

[–] Jennie_Portrait (804) 3 years ago

Yes, they did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen

reply

[–] Jennie_Portrait (804) 3 years ago

[deleted]

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

In the original 1961 film version of West Side Story, Anybodys was just a tomboy, but she was a real girl, just the same. Even in real life, there are plenty of straight girls who are tough and are able to take care of themselves.

reply

[–] Jimmyt11111 (137) 3 years ago

There were no transgender people in the 50s. The medical procedure wasnt possible. Any girl "Tranny" was a woman dressing up as a man. That's all.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

Hold on a minute. A girl or a guy who simply dresses up like the opposite gender just for kicks, or whatever reason(s), is a transvestite, not a transgender, or a transsexual.

Transgender is when a person undergoes a sex change operation in order to change their gender. That's an important difference here.

reply

[–] Jimmyt11111 (137) 3 years ago

Tranny=transvestite

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

That's exactly my point, and a transvestite is somebody (either a guy or a gal, although many more guys are transvestites), for whatever reason(s) gets their kicks out of cross-dressing (i. e. dressing like the opposite gender.).

The vast majority of transvestites are straight, and many, if not most of them are married, with families and regular sex lives, but for whatever reasons, get their kicks out of cross-dressing.

The vast majority of transvestites are men. Sure, there are female transvestites, but not nearly so many.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

There are pre-op transgender folks as well. In fact most are pre-op. The sex change operation is not what makes them transgender. It makes them post-op.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

That I didn't know, but I strongly believe that, in the original 1961 film version of West Side Story, Anybodys was a tomboy. She proved to be a tough girl who could take care of herself, which is how she finally got accepted as an equal by the Jets. The only thing about Anybodys, which indicated a betraying turn-around of Anita was when she said to the Jets "But she wants to help get Tony!" That, imho, was the straw that broke the camel's back, if one gets the drift, and provided the opportunity for the Jets to insult, rough up and assault Anita.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12006) 3 years ago

Well, I believe it's wrong to conflate "tomboy", or a girl who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes, as transgender.

I really do believe that this whole transgender movement relies too much on gender stereotypes, the same stereotypes they deride as "social constructs".

This is a house of cards built on lies. And a house of cards inevitably falls.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

You've made some good points there, OnantheBarbarian. Your first sentence points them out especially well. Thank you for your points. They're well taken.

reply

[–] Jennie_Portrait (804) 3 years ago

Yes, there were transgenders in the 1950’s. Medical procedure was rare and pretty much only for male to female. Christine Jorgensen was a very famous Transgender woman.

reply

[–] PaladinNJ (21510) 3 years ago

Transgenders wouldn't be present among poor inner city kids in that time frame. It cost a lot of money and back then was not performed in the USA.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

In addition to which, often enough, poorer, rougher and tougher city kids are often not very tolerant of people who are drastically different in some way or other, especially people who are transgenders. Any transgender(s) that were/are present in inner city neighborhoods, especially the poorer, rougher and tougher ones, would not survive, really. Transgenders would be totally destroyed, if one gets the drift.

reply

[–] FeeCJ (129) 3 years ago

As some people here are aware, it is not accurate to say there were no transgender people in the '50s.

I was around then, and Christine Jorgensen was the first person internationally known to have had transgender surgery. And she began in the early '50s to transition surgically.

She was VERY famous. I think I even remember her on magazines like "Time" etc. She was big news and a very nice person in interviews.

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

No, that is incorrect. Read about Christine Jorgensen here.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

@ Jimmyt11111........

Not true. Read about Christine Jorgensen who had sex reassignment surgery in the 50s........

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/christine-jorgensen

reply

[–] liscarkat (18410) 3 years ago

There is no rational arguing against the fact that the movie is woke. Those who embrace wokeness will like it, others will give it a pass. I'm in the latter category. It's okay, though; I'm perfectly happy with the 1961 version, and Spielberg doesn't need my money. Neither of us loses anything.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

I'm with you here, liscarket! I, too, am giving Spielberg's new film version of West Side Story a hard pass. Neither Spielberg, the others who helped him make this film, or any of the actors/actresses need my money, either. They won't get my money, because the original 1961 film version of West Side Story is my all time favorite movie, hands down, and I'm more than happy with it!

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

This "woke" movement is not my cup 'o tea at all. I actually do not believe in it. Having said that, I enjoyed the hell out of Spielberg's adaptation of the Broadway stage play of West Side Story.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

Let me ask you a question, luvthepros: I know that you enjoyed Spielberg's new film version of West Side Story, and that's your right. If the "woke" movement is not your cup of tea, then why are you trying to convince me to go and see Spielberg's new film version of West Side Story, when for a number of reasons, I will be giving it a hard pass?

reply

[–] luvthepros (798) 3 years ago

You just may change your mind about the film if you go see it.

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 3 years ago

Thank you but no thank you,luvthepros. I know that you're hoping that I go and see Spielberg's film version of West Side Story, in the hopes that I change my mind, but it's not going to work. I have no interest in going to see Spielberg's film version of West Side Story. I'm giving Spielberg's film version of West Side Story a hard pass--and that's that.

reply

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Non-binary are not Trans. They are just entitled narcissist who want to be edgy. It’s a new emo phase among the kids, yesterday’s emos are today’s non-binaries and neopronouns attention seekers (like demonself, bunnyself, etc).

Teenagers can be forgiven for it as they are young and stupid. The worst offenders are celebrities who want to be relevant like Demi Lovato or wannabe celebrities who want to get noticed and be praised like the actress playing Anybody in WSS. And it is mostly women.

Non-binaries are doing my head in. I have low tolerance for them. Also they take away from real trans people who are not that common as it seems these days. Today anyone can claim that they are trans for various reasons (like avoiding to go to male prison) and they are taken seriously, and crazy trans activists support them. By “trans activists” I don’t necessarily mean all trans people but some of them and more their loud allies.

But there are some common sense unwoke trans people who shed light on those issues while being called transphobic by activists and woke mob.
Make it make sense! Like Blaire White would say.

https://youtu.be/KTybcHbX3ks

reply

[–] mplo (2356) 2 months ago

Frankly, I think that by the time a kid reaches high school age, there is no longer an excuse for this kind of nasty teasing, baiting, and insults, and various types of harassment and physical abuse of people who are different in some way or other, whether it be due to sexual orientation, race, religion, color, or learning and/or developmental problems.

reply