MovieChat Forums > Queen Cleopatra (2023) Discussion > Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen...

Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen Cleopatra What It Is: Racism


"For starters, it’s emboldened white supremacists, who’ve crawled out of the darkest corners of the internet to spew hate and racial slurs at the cast and creators of the show – just as they did when Disney announced Halle Bailey as the star of The Little Mermaid, and when Shonda Rhimes dared to present Black people in regal roles in Bridgerton.

Shortly after the trailer for Queen Cleopatra dropped, Netflix was forced to turn off the comments due to the volume of racial slurs being posted. James, who received the bulk of the verbal abuse, spoke out about the threatening messages she had been subjected to on her own Twitter page. “Just FYI, this kind of behaviour won’t be tolerated on my account – you will be blocked without hesitation,” she tweeted, sharing screenshots of racist attacks referring to her as the “N’ word”, “Black b*tch” and “Cleopatra’s slave”.

Cleopatra’s race has long been regarded as ambiguous by scholars and historians. What we do know is that her father, Ptolemy XII, was of Macedonian-Greek descent, a member of the family that conquered Egypt more than 200 years before Cleopatra’s birth in 69 BC. Her mother’s identity, on the other hand, is unknown – although she may well have been Egyptian – which is where things get a little more complex. “Cleopatra ruled in Egypt long before the Arab settlement in North Africa,” said Dr Sally Ann Ashton, a research scientist and author of Cleopatra and Egypt, who appears in the documentary. “If the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African, and this should be reflected in contemporary representations of Cleopatra.”

To be clear, the docu-drama isn’t, in fact, arguing that Cleopatra was a dark-skinned Black woman with no Macedonian-Greek heritage at all, although the media storm around it might make you assume otherwise. Rather, its creators, including scholar Shelley Haley, professor of classics and African studies at Hamilton College, have asked us to imagine her as a woman of mixed heritage, hence the casting of a biracial actress. “Her ethnicity is not the focus of Queen Cleopatra, but we did intentionally decide to depict her of mixed ethnicity to reflect theories about Cleopatra’s possible Egyptian ancestry and the multicultural nature of ancient Egypt,” a statement from Netflix reads.

Unsurprisingly, past depictions of Cleopatra featuring white women have been critically and publicly acclaimed, with Vivien Leigh, Claudette Colbert and Elizabeth Taylor all appearing as the Egyptian queen over the course of the 20th century. Not one of these women is Macedonian, Greek or Egyptian, meaning their casting was no more “authentic” than James’s, and yet it never incited scandal. And while Israeli actor Gal Gadot’s decision to play Cleopatra in a forthcoming biopic raised a few eyebrows when it was announced in 2020, it wasn’t met with nearly the level of vitriol as James’s casting.

Frankly, our obsession with “figuring out” Cleopatra’s race may not have shed much light on her actual heritage, but it tells us an awful lot about the current state of the world and the way in which it operates. Perhaps the real question we should be asking ourselves is why ancient scholars placed so little importance on Cleopatra’s race, yet the modern world remains fixated on it almost two millennia after her death? When you strip away the academic posturing, so much of the backlash we’ve seen around Queen Cleopatra is simply racism masquerading as a heroic quest for factual accuracy.

If there’s one thing that the reaction to James’s Queen Cleopatra has highlighted, it’s that, despite how progressive we may think we now are, the world still isn’t ready to accept the idea of people of colour thriving in a historical context. Believe it or not, there was a time when not everything revolved around Europeans and whiteness. The Nigerian author and poet, Chinua Achebe, said it best with his age-old African proverb: “Until the lion learns to write, every story will glorify the hunter.” Don’t we know it."
https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/queen-cleopatra-backlash

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That lion needs to hurry up before he goes extinct

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[deleted]

Why do you want her to be white so bad you are willing to deny the truth?

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[deleted]

Because you want her to be white so bad you are willing to deny the truth!

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[deleted]

You're projecting:

Hollywood likes to pretend that ancient Egypt was full of white people
https://www.vox.com/2014/8/4/5955253/Hollywood-egypt-white-people-exodus-gods-and-kings

Egypt bans 'Zionist' film Exodus and cites 'historical inaccuracies'
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/dec/26/egypt-bans-hollywood-exodus-christian-bale

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[deleted]

The problem with the movie seems to be that it's presenting itself as a documentary but historians seem to agree that Cleopatra was not ethnically black. Instead of the filmmakers admitting their filmmaking choice was ahistorical, and that it's problematic to make an ahistorical choice in such a major part of a documentary, they've doubled down with all sorts of convoluted reasons why Cleopatra... might have been black? It's very confusing. In other words, this is one of those cases where trying to shoehorn a diversity goal into a film, has negated the purpose of the film.

We can contrast this with, say, Bridgerton. In Bridgerton, various families are ethnically Black. The books were fictional and set in Regency England so they've diverged from the books in having Black families be accepted in a place and time where most likely, they weren't. However, it works because they've also done some novel worldbuilding in the series, and they've signaled this by creating a light, fluffy atmosphere that signals that this is a fantasy world. The bright colors, the unnaturally clean streets on the Bridgerton's town, etc. For example, the women's clothing is not historical but is a blend of modern with historical. Some things are done in an over-the-top way that continually reminds us that this is not meant to be real, for example Queen Charlotte's enormous hairstyles. This allows them to add racial diversity without confusing the audience, because the audience KNOWS that this a fantasy.

I think audiences are quite accepting of diversity actually. It just needs to be done in a way that works WITH the genre and purpose of the production, rather than contradicting what the production claims it's trying to accomplish.

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A very intelligent post.

Diversity is good and fine, and can be applied in historical contexts, just as long as you're not deceiving audiences and pretending something is 'historical fact'. No-one treats Bridgerton as historical fact (at least I hope not), and there are other perfectly reasonable precedents for playing around with race (e.g. the recent David Copperfield adaptation, the Hamilton stage play, which, although based on historical fact, is clearly using actors of colour for expressionistic/artistic reasons), but clearly the makers of this 'documentary' want us all to believe that Cleopatra was unquestionably a woman of sub-Saharan African Black ancestry, contrary to practically all expert opinion.

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Exactly!

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A great deal is unknown about Cleopatra including her appearance. The show clearly says they were speculating since her appearance is unknown. There's no reason why the default has to always be white.

Consider:

1. Egypt's population in that era was majority black or racially-mixed.
2. By the time Cleo was born, her family had been in Egypt for 276 years!
3. Cleo's father was illegitimate. His mother was unknown, therefore could've been Egyptian.
4. Cleo's mother was unknown, therefore could've been Egyptian.
5. There is no contemporary art of Cleo. Nobody knows what she looked like!
6. Ignorant people are misinterpreting the Roman coins. No two coins look the same. Her features are made to look Roman and she looks exactly like Mark Anthony to represent their partnership.:
https://www.artic.edu/artworks/194522/tetradrachm-coin-portraying-queen-cleopatra-vii

Many different Roman coins look like this. Hooked noses and jutting chins in profile represented strength to Romans. I read that the Berlin sculpture was based on the coin's image which renders it meaningless in regard to her appearance.

7. European artists gave her a European appearance while Egyptian artists gave her an Egyptian appearance (no hooked nose and jutting chin):
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FIrYMdsD6wk/TjJHKickYHI/AAAAAAAAK6M/I7UrXhfj_Q0/s1600/lastweekofjuly-045.jpg

8. Her sister (or half-sister) Arsinoe (mother unknown) was determined bi-racial with a black mother. Her skeleton was found in a tomb. It's not that difficult to identify race, gender and age by skeletal remains, although certain skeptics are behaving otherwise.

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Her family were Greek Macedonian and apparently rather racist so unlikely to have accepted a black woman's children. It's not an area I know much about nor have any interest in, but Egyptian historians seem to think it's not correct to portray her as black or partially black and I would think they would know. Egyptian and black ethnicity also seem to be different, you seem to be thinking of them as the same thing? It's not that the default is white, but if the most likely position is that she was race A, then I don't think for a documentary it's quite right to present her as being possibly race B. For fiction, sure, whatever race you like. But a documentary is different, you are leading people to think that a particular thing was fact, when it was not. And, in this sort of situation, it does make a difference, because it would have impacted how she would have been received by her family, by her society, etc.

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The show said it's speculation since 3/4 of Cleo's ancestry is unknown and nobody knows what she looked like. This is the SECOND documentary to speculate that she was part Egyptian.

LOL! You're funny! Modern racism began about 500 years ago in Spain. Ancients thought in terms of religion, nations and ethnicity - not "race" or skin color. Ancient Egyptian and Greek marriages were very common and were well-documented among non-royals. Egyptian royals tended to marry family members, but not always. Realistically, Pharaohs had lesser wives and concubines so there must have been many "unofficial" children.

Black is black. Ditto white. You wouldn't say British whites are a different type of white from French whites.

Early Egyptians were black. Later, Asiatic people came and there was intermarriage especially in the northern region. Moving south, Egyptians tended to be darker and intermarry with Nubians.

Think of black people in the diaspora who tend to be racially-mixed and have a variety of skin tones and facial features and hair types: Meghan Markles; Kamala Harris; Pharrell Williams; Taye Diggs; Mariah Carey. They're still black.

Muslim Arabs control Egypt and they want everyone to believe they built the pyramids when they had nothing to do with Ancient Egypt and arrived in the 7th century. Plenty of racism and anti-Christian/anti-Semitism and misogyny there.

Here are links to Ancient Egyptian art of inhabitants. There is no way these Egyptians are not black:

King Tut's army chief:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/544681

https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/3790

https://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20120216-11th_Dynasty_Egyptian_funerary_statue_(Gulbenkian_Museum).jpg

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I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

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Boy that's rich...Keelai wants to know why the United States is so focused on race.

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Right, ironically since he is a black supremacist focused only on race :D

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💯

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I'm shocked that MC's foremost liar comments on anything but politics.

Nope, in fact you regressive liberal fucktards made the rules. Now you whine when it's used against you. It exposes you hypocrites for the racists you truly are.

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"the docu-drama isn’t, in fact, arguing that Cleopatra was a dark-skinned Black woman"

Isn't it, though? Why go to all the trouble of making the movie at all then? If the answer is no, just move on to the next topic. But not, surely the movie is making that argument at some level. Otherwise, it would have no raison-d'etre.

"the world still isn’t ready to accept the idea of people of colour thriving in a historical context."

If the goal is depict people of color thriving in history, why not make movies about unambiguous cases of same? Not doing so seems pretty disingenuous.

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The actress isn't dark-skinned. She's tan.

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Hey, I'm not the one calling her "dark-skinned". You are. Was just quoting you. You're arguing with yourself now.

Evidently your plan is just to post whatever you can to keep this movie on moviechat's front page. The moderators should ban you as a spammer.

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Not my quote. Dark is relative.

If you don't reply, then I don't.

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You posted it, so for moviechat purposes it is your quote.

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I do feel sad for American descendants of African slaves who have been robbed of their original culture and conditioned to hate the Western culture they are a part of. But it's not an excuse to steal or defile what belongs to others.

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Count Constantine de Volney and other Europeans' accounts when they arrived in Egypt:

"The ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Greeks and Romans, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold...this race of Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech!"

Written in 1780.

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Who cares what her skin color was. At the end of the day it's a stupid boring drama that was not well executed, and deserves its 1/10.

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Welcome to MC, Spock! As a Trekkie, I expect you to be logical so please don't disappoint.

History always matters. You can understand a geopolitical situation with it. You can be forewarned of upcoming events when it repeats. Lack of knowledge can be used to manipulate a population and easily control them. There's a reason why certain states are banning history books.

Right now, I'm reading Ancient Greek Herodotus' account of his travels to Ancient Egypt describing the people and their culture. I'm seeing the ancient world through his eyes!!

Anyway, this is actually the SECOND documentary implying that Cleopatra was racially-mixed. Her sister definitely was. To each their own, but I found the first doc interesting with its focus on forensic science. This one is a little steamier and I'm enjoying the very diversified cast. This is the first time I've seen Egyptians with brown and tan skin matching their representation in their artwork.

I'm still watching both, but so far, I'm neither bored nor disappointed. I give 10/10 for both shows.

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