MovieChat Forums > Queen Cleopatra (2023) Discussion > Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen...

Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen Cleopatra What It Is: Racism


"For starters, it’s emboldened white supremacists, who’ve crawled out of the darkest corners of the internet to spew hate and racial slurs at the cast and creators of the show – just as they did when Disney announced Halle Bailey as the star of The Little Mermaid, and when Shonda Rhimes dared to present Black people in regal roles in Bridgerton.

Shortly after the trailer for Queen Cleopatra dropped, Netflix was forced to turn off the comments due to the volume of racial slurs being posted. James, who received the bulk of the verbal abuse, spoke out about the threatening messages she had been subjected to on her own Twitter page. “Just FYI, this kind of behaviour won’t be tolerated on my account – you will be blocked without hesitation,” she tweeted, sharing screenshots of racist attacks referring to her as the “N’ word”, “Black b*tch” and “Cleopatra’s slave”.

Cleopatra’s race has long been regarded as ambiguous by scholars and historians. What we do know is that her father, Ptolemy XII, was of Macedonian-Greek descent, a member of the family that conquered Egypt more than 200 years before Cleopatra’s birth in 69 BC. Her mother’s identity, on the other hand, is unknown – although she may well have been Egyptian – which is where things get a little more complex. “Cleopatra ruled in Egypt long before the Arab settlement in North Africa,” said Dr Sally Ann Ashton, a research scientist and author of Cleopatra and Egypt, who appears in the documentary. “If the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African, and this should be reflected in contemporary representations of Cleopatra.”

To be clear, the docu-drama isn’t, in fact, arguing that Cleopatra was a dark-skinned Black woman with no Macedonian-Greek heritage at all, although the media storm around it might make you assume otherwise. Rather, its creators, including scholar Shelley Haley, professor of classics and African studies at Hamilton College, have asked us to imagine her as a woman of mixed heritage, hence the casting of a biracial actress. “Her ethnicity is not the focus of Queen Cleopatra, but we did intentionally decide to depict her of mixed ethnicity to reflect theories about Cleopatra’s possible Egyptian ancestry and the multicultural nature of ancient Egypt,” a statement from Netflix reads.

Unsurprisingly, past depictions of Cleopatra featuring white women have been critically and publicly acclaimed, with Vivien Leigh, Claudette Colbert and Elizabeth Taylor all appearing as the Egyptian queen over the course of the 20th century. Not one of these women is Macedonian, Greek or Egyptian, meaning their casting was no more “authentic” than James’s, and yet it never incited scandal. And while Israeli actor Gal Gadot’s decision to play Cleopatra in a forthcoming biopic raised a few eyebrows when it was announced in 2020, it wasn’t met with nearly the level of vitriol as James’s casting.

Frankly, our obsession with “figuring out” Cleopatra’s race may not have shed much light on her actual heritage, but it tells us an awful lot about the current state of the world and the way in which it operates. Perhaps the real question we should be asking ourselves is why ancient scholars placed so little importance on Cleopatra’s race, yet the modern world remains fixated on it almost two millennia after her death? When you strip away the academic posturing, so much of the backlash we’ve seen around Queen Cleopatra is simply racism masquerading as a heroic quest for factual accuracy.

If there’s one thing that the reaction to James’s Queen Cleopatra has highlighted, it’s that, despite how progressive we may think we now are, the world still isn’t ready to accept the idea of people of colour thriving in a historical context. Believe it or not, there was a time when not everything revolved around Europeans and whiteness. The Nigerian author and poet, Chinua Achebe, said it best with his age-old African proverb: “Until the lion learns to write, every story will glorify the hunter.” Don’t we know it."
https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/queen-cleopatra-backlash

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Fuck up.

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It was stupid to make the little mermaid black. But at least she is a pretend character. Cleopatra, the Macedonian white woman, was real. And casting Claudette Colbert, Vivian Leigh, Elizabeth Taylor, and Gal Gadot in the role is more authentic than casting a black or part black actress, because although they aren't Macedonian, they're white, like Cleopatra. Even if Cleopatra's mother was African (which is speculation), she was not sub-Saharan black African. Acknowledging reality is not "racism". Black-washing Cleopatra is.

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Nonsense. Egyptologists already stated Cleo was melanated - not white. Intermarriage was common and one of her ancestors was Persian. Her mother was unknown. Realistically, she was probably part Egyptian like her half sister.

Your "sub-Saharan" comment is ignorant and racist. Black Africans live everywhere in Africa and have many different features. Blacks have traded with each other, traveled and intermarried throughout Africa. It would be like saying only blond Swedes are white while British, French and Italians are not.

Black people, aka: Nubians, are indigenous to Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. They still live there.

Egyptians:
https://i0.wp.com/worldawayfromhome.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/71A408B4-0BA5-495B-B615-5AB6223D2E04_1_201_a-1-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1

Sudanese:
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero_image_2/public/Sudan-UN7331585.jpg?itok=JIAZV5S2

Nubian living in Ancient Egypt sculpture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubians#/media/File:Epoca_tolemaica,_stata_d'uomo_con_fascetta_e_capelli_ricci,_120-100_ac_ca..JPG

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The Egyptians, who are not even themselves white, are so outraged by this that they are suing Netflix:

https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-739745

And they are also making a counter-documentary to set the record straight:

https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/05/09/egypt-queen-cleopatra-netflix/

And here's Egypt's antiquities ministry saying outright that Cleopatra was "white skinned":

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/egypt-cleopatra-white-skinned-netflix-b2328739.html

Nearly every piece of known evidence supports the idea that Cleopatra was light-skinned. Not sure what "egyptologists" you've been listening to.

Regarding your comment on intermarriage, it's known that the actual kind of intermarriage that was common among the Ptolemaic dynasty was intermarriage within the family to keep the bloodline pure.

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Muslim Arab Egyptian government is racist and anti-Christian/anti-Semitic that oppresses the descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. They want everyone to believe Arabs built the pyramids when they weren't in Ancient Egypt. They invaded during the 7th century.

"do not conform to Islamic and societal values and principles"
Ancient Egyptians were not Muslim!

No, the counter-documentary is a backlash which often happens when the social order is challenged. The Egyptian government has been furious toward black people who say Arabs invaded Egypt and treat black and Coptic Egyptians poorly.
https://aleteia.org/2017/04/12/the-copts-why-does-the-islamic-state-kill-egypts-christians/
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/feb/13/egypt-nubians-fight-for-ancestral-land-earmarked-for-mega-project

A 2009 BBC documentary claimed Cleo's mother was black, also. And before white supremacy, it was common in literature to portray her as POC. Shakespeare described her as "tawny" which meant mulatto and Plutarch as "a brown-skin girl with crinkly hair and voluptuous figure".

Anyway, I've been encouraged by white historians and Egyptologists. For a few years, I've noticed in lectures, books and museums where Egyptian art is displayed that they have begun to denounce past racism in their field and acknowledge the contribution of Egyptians as both African and black.

This series will be the first and only time I would have seen Egyptians mirroring their artwork with brown skin. Every other movie I've seen featured only white Europeans.

"family to keep the bloodline pure."

That went out the window with her dad. He was illegitimate with an unknown mother.
Cleopatra's mother is unknown. Her sister or half-sister had a black mother.

No contemporary images of Cleo and 3/4 unknown ancestry in a black populated country. It's possible she was racially-mixed.

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You do realize everyone stopped reading that nonsense after the second sentence, right?

According to Egyptian experts, making her black is racism because Smith and the other producers are trying to erase her true heritage.

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Cleo wasn't Egyptian. She was Greek.

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And that means not black, get the duck out you racist

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"Macedonia, along with the rest of the Hellenic world, was not exclusively white — so her European descent did not preclude blackness."
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/what-did-cleopatra-really-look-like";

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Afro-Centrist black supremacist bullshit.

It was white (genetically speaking) and there was NO BLACK in the area.

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Cities were diverse in Greece, Egypt and Rome - centers of learning, trade and diplomacy.

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Nope, not in a Greece. Neither in Rome. They were “diverse” (the big cities) due to travelers and traders or slaves brought in. Or some invading armies that were in the end sent back home. But the local populations were pretty much homogeneous.

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"They were “diverse” (the big cities)"

That's what I wrote! Stop arguing to argue.

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But they were NOT. The visitors MAYBE but they didn't live in those cities, the actual population of those cities was NOT that diverse.

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I wish you and others would read books.

Don't you have a library near you?

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HAHAHAHA, butthurt much that the show is tanking? Now imagine if they had recast Blade with a white actor, you would be shitting your pants and would be on here nonstop bitching about “white washing”.

Libtard logic: Recasting a black character with a white actor is racist. Complaining about recasting a white actor with a black actor is racist.

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Greeks were originally from Asia Minor, therefore they were Asiatic - not white.

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Greeks are not black you idiot. Also the term Caucasian (white) includes North Africans and middle Easterners.

https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

Fucking ignorant.

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I already wrote Asia Minor.

Caucasian isn't white. The Supreme Court made that very clear.

No, black-skinned people are not white. This black Egyptian wants to yell at you for calling him white:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqn-JgagkkY

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I don't care about what a bunch of racist dudes decide in USA. The Supreme Court decision is not based on race but on racism. And you are a racist for supporting that.

You always have this idiotic argument "I found some black Egyptian so all Egyptians are a monolithic population and are all black". You are beyond stupid.

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So then she shouldn’t have been black? Greeks are not black, or is it OK to race swap anyone as long as they are being replaced with a black actor?

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Its incredible to think Keelai branded all of ancient Egypt as racist for choosing a Macedonian over a black person as queen.

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Yep, if you don’t feed into the lefts delusions you’re either racist, homophobic, etc. whatever their new buzzword is these days.

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You forgot "nazi", "bigot", "white supremacist" and "far-right".

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[deleted]

let's call you what you are: ghey

TL;DR!

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He is a well known black supremacist and racist.

Trying to culturally appropriate other cultures achievements.

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25 Worst Cases of Hollywood Whitewashing Since 2000
https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/hollywood-whitewashing-25-roles-emma-stone-jake-gyllenhaal-scarlett-johansson/

Angelina Jolie, Ben Affleck, And 17 Other White Actors Who Have Played Non-White Characters
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jessg/whitewashed-hollywood-characters

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Where did I say that I support whitewashing??? I'm against whitewashing as well.

You just proved that you are a racist black supremacist. Thank you.

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The actors and showrunners crying racism can't coverup that their show is shit.

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Did you watch it?

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I don’t read or watch fantasy fanfic.

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Is it that you have no culture and no accomplishments the cause for which you feel the need to steal other people history and culture?

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Major projection:

25 Worst Cases of Hollywood Whitewashing Since 2000
https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/hollywood-whitewashing-25-roles-emma-stone-jake-gyllenhaal-scarlett-johansson/

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Where did I say that I support whitewashing??? I'm against whitewashing as well.

You just proved that you are a racist black supremacist. Thank you.

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No such thing since white men control society. Stop gaslighting.

Europeans stole African, Asian, and Native-American art and corpses. "Is it that you have no culture and no accomplishments the cause for which you feel the need to steal other people history and culture?"

Hollywood likes to pretend that ancient Egypt was full of white people:
https://www.vox.com/2014/8/4/5955253/Hollywood-egypt-white-people-exodus-gods-and-kings

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According to your "logic" (or lack thereof) all and every non-white person partaking in western culture and using whiteys inventions is guilty of "cultural appropriation".

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Do you need to fill your post history?

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Do you need to refill your prescription?

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Fine, eventually you reacted in your bump and jump fever.
Typical also your defense by suspecting others need meds.
I know exactly who you are. ☻

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"Do you need to fill your post history?" asks the person with three times as many posts as me. You dont see the irony in that?

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I see a sleeper account (you) what jumps around like crazy in older threads. Everybody replies every now and then to older posts.
You just show an extreme attitude.
Yep, you want to have 3x more posts, without "irony".

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Hardly a sleeper account, though i'm not here daily or even weekly. As for my attitude; yes i guess that i can be way too salty and even an a-hole at times. Which i'll admit is not a good thing. Regarding my number of posts i can honestly say i dont care wether its 3 or 30.000.

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