MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Why do the critics love the Star Wars se...

Why do the critics love the Star Wars sequels?

posted 7 years ago by Arghhhh (804)
70 replies | jump to latest

To be clear, I do not have any problem with any single critic (or anyone) loving this film but what I can't understand is how *every* critic seems to be in love with it. Metacritic has 53 critics listed as favourable, 3 mixed and zero give a negative opinion. Zero. And yet there are clearly millions of people who don't just think it's poor, they think it's a disaster.

So how can this be? What is going on...? This is a genuine question and I am looking for answers.

Here are the options as far as I can tell:

1 - It really is as good as they say it is.
2 - Disney has bought them off.
3 - Disney hasn't bought them off but critics are worried about losing access if they are too harsh.
4 - They agree with it politically
5 - They're scared to disagree with it politically as they worry they will be painted as racist/sexist/etc
6 - Everyone else seems to love it and they are going with the flow
7 - They think the prequels were the worst films ever so as long as they're not like the prequels they must be good
8 - Star Wars is now in a very unusual position of having very low expectations buy still enormous amounts of hype resulting in a severe lowering of the bar.
9 - KK has the families of every single established critic on the planet locked in her basement.

I personally feel it is a mixture of 4 through 8 but even this seems a stretch to explain the critical reception. I mean, this is a massive corporation that's bought somebody else's IP for billions, to turn out two sequels that seem to actively undo many aspects of the original story, that don't seem to agree with each other AND that millions of people hate. Now if you were to tell me that you could do that without getting a single negative review from an established critic I'd think you were insane. But it's happened. But how?

[–] MagneticMonopole (286) 7 years ago

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Oh great, you again?

Just go away will you, I'm not the only one on these boards that's tired of you.

[–] MagneticMonopole (286) 7 years ago

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

You got me. Now go away.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Wow, he actually did.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

You can either die a hero, or live long enough to become a monopole.

[–] bozo_500 (13387) 7 years ago

4/5 are possibly the big ones .. notice alot of film reviewers are big on being SJW and loathe Trump etc

[–] Xenopharb (617) 7 years ago

Get real ... are people here playing a drinking game with a shot for every time SJW is posted? That is so 2016.

I highly doubt that is the reason.

[–] fc31 (6122) 7 years ago

You listed all very good reasons, but here is my view:

I think mostly the star wars fans hate the movie because the world of star wars is well established, TFA still acted mostly within those boundaries, but this movie completely ignored it.

If you are not a star wars fan you are probably not going to notice that. You don't have to be a star wars fan to be a critic and I bet most are not.

If you are not a star wars fan, maybe the political messages in movie also appeal to you then it is likely you would give the movie a good review.

Of course professional critics get to be invited to advance screenings and 5 star treatments afterwards, when they are full of champagne and smoked salmon, and feel obliged to at least say they liked the movie.

[–] bozo_500 (13387) 7 years ago

Of course professional critics get to be invited to advance screenings and 5 star treatments afterwards, when they are full of champagne and smoked salmon, and feel obliged to at least say they liked the movie.

Yes also KK ordering Mark Hamill to run around performing selfie after selfie with them and signing their OT DVD boxsets like a madman and listening to them weep about how SW changed their lives helps them give good reviews too

[–] miljenko (0) 7 years ago

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[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

I still think if you are not a Star Wars fan you are still more than likely have seen TFA before watching its sequel. Just going from that would be a lot to complain about. TLJ doesn't fit well with that film any more than it fits with the rest of the series.

Even non Star Wars fans can see the issue with the casino mission, hamfisted social crap and poor humor. This is the middle film of a trilogy, what in this film really makes anyone that interested in seeing the third film?

[–] fc31 (6122) 7 years ago

Yes, the casino mission is not essential but it is just a minor annoyance for a normal movie. There are movies with worse subplots.

Fans hate the movie because:
1) Change to Luke's character, but you really have to be a fan to noticed that. Otherwise it looks like a normal story.

2) Not confirming to Jedi and Sith force types. Their force power is just a tool to them, a superpower. The difference of Rey and Kylo is just their characters, nothing more. At this point this is just a comic book movie. But only star wars fans hate their world gets teared down.

3) Not enough attention paid to Snoke's origin and Rey's parentage. But if you are not a fan why would you even care about how Snoke fits into the continuity of original trilogy, why would you even give a damn about Rey's parentage?

Feminist massages are annoying but if the above three problems are not there then fans might not have hated the movie as much.

If you are not a fan then this is just a super hero movies, a bit shallow and good only for popcorn consumption, but there are shallower superhero movies worse than this.

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

I suppose from a superhero popcorn flick perspective I can see it I suppose. So perhaps the critics treating it like a Marvel movie essentially, giving it props for what they like and not focusing on the parts it does poorly.

[–] fc31 (6122) 7 years ago

One thing is for sure. This is not a movie made by someone cares about star wars at all. I think conversion to superhero type movie could be intentional, which is sad.

[–] Recognizer (386) 7 years ago

So Disney has basically Marvel-ised SW? Fuck ...

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

Interesting...

I think a lot of the reviewers are fans, but just not as devoted as a lot of the detractors, or do not share the same perspective... So they see the heroism of Luke overcoming his isolation and sacrificing himself to protect his sister and the other resistence folks, whereas other fans see it as simply their idol dying a pointless death after having hide away like a coward...

The more interesting criticisms, in my view, are those that do not focus on fan elements, but rather assess how it is a poor movie... it is... You need to be a fan to really like it (remember even Rian Johnson is a huge fan), or really hate it... Most non-fans would find it either passable or poor, but not a disaster... If you think a very popular product is just poor, are you really going to crap on it and risk fan backlash as some movie reviewer?

[–] fc31 (6122) 7 years ago

A star war movie is not a stand alone movie. As a standalone movie it is just very average, the imdb ratings reflected it, it seems majority of viewers are not really fans.

Rian is not a fan, that much is clear. No fan would do what he did, but of course as part of interview he would have to say he is.

[–] ccr1633 (1538) 7 years ago

fc31 wrote: "Feminist massages are annoying but if the above three problems are not there then fans might not have hated the movie as much."

That's a good point. I think a useful film with which to contrast the execrable TLJ in this regard is Jurassic Park (despite it being a standalone film). I consider JP to be a very good film, but not great because it was marred by cloying Spielbergian cutesiness (the annoying kids) as well as some hamfisted feminism courtesy of the repeat offender Laura Dern. Despite those scars, JP was very entertaining because the story was interesting, the characters mostly had something interesting to say, and the acting was good. The feminist social justice BS and the precocious shrieking kiddiepoos were just a little white noise in the background of an otherwise strong film, and thus less irritating.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Jurassic Park is my all time favorite movie. I don't see Laura Dern and the girl kid as feminist. I mean, she is a strong independent character, but nothing screams FEMINIST to me. She had a balanced role. All the players in Jurassic Park were strong characters. Ian Malcom when he distracted the T-Rex, risking his life. Alan Grant for saving the kids and caring for them. So yeah. They were all heros. No men had to be degraded and stept on for the women to be strong. In contrast to TLJ, where every male character is either weak, evil or stupid/wrong.

[–] ccr1633 (1538) 7 years ago

Laura Dern's Jurassic Park character repeatedly lectured the men about their sexist assumptions regarding women. It was done in a hamfisted way that just shouted "I'm making a statement and I'll use this film to do it!" It wasn't enough for the character to be a strong, independent woman through her actions and demonstrated intelligence. Instead, she had to explain it to the audience like a bad comedian might their dumb and unsubtle jokes.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Meh, I disagree.

[–] ccr1633 (1538) 7 years ago

What, you actually disagree that there were scenes of Ellie Sattler lecturing men on why they shouldn't have certain preconceived notions about women, etc? If you think that then you're not remembering the film very well.

One of the more egregious examples of the hamfisted, utterly unnecessary dialog is about 1:37 hrs into the film when Sattler and Hammond are discussing who should go outside the control room to get to the circuit breakers. Hammond in a stumbly, well-intentioned manner suggests he should go because he's a man. Ellie replies "we can discuss sexism in survival situations when I get back." That's a textbook example of the lame dialog I'm talking about. All she really had to say was, "No doc, I can handle it, thanks." Instead we get some cheesy feminist message that is better demonstrated through the character's actions instead of the girlsplainin'.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Oh I remember the movie very well, It's my most watched movie of all time. My number 1 fav movie of all time. I don't mind that line in the movie actually. Hammond is old. He comes from a different generation. Believe it or not, sexism is still something that exists and because it exists it's shouldn't be a problem when it's mentioned once in a while.

[–] Nicolai (138) 7 years ago

I dont know man, if I watch another trilogy that has nothing to do with star wars. And the main bad guy finally shows up in the second movie. Then dies like that without any explanation or backstory then it would always suck.

[–] Buttholio (198) 7 years ago

I know, right? It fails at basic storytelling. And yet somehow if we notice we're just "fans" who "didn't get what we expected."

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

Its hard to say to be honest. While its possible 2 and 3 could happen, with 3 being more likely I don't think that is it. 4 is at least part of it, critics much like a lot of media types typically lean left and its hard to keep bias out of your work, which because of that makes 1 part of the answer too from their point of view. 5 is also a possibility for some, simply pointing out some of the obvious social crap and the questionable presence of Rose in the movie puts you in danger there. 7 effects a lot of people, so it wouldn't surprise me if critics ride along with that as I have literally seen people make this point in favor of TLJ. I am not sure about 8, because 8 seems to apply to all of the new films really.

I think 4 and a little of 5 and a touch of 6 is why the reviews don't seem to be very diverse primarily. The film is flawed, their is a lot not to like in it regardless of where you are coming from so its a bit puzzling you don't have more negative reviews from a few critics.

[–] bozo_500 (13387) 7 years ago

also maybe add (or maybe it comes under 7) that most film critics grew up with the OT and are huge fans and they simply cannot get over the fact they are seeing Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill in Star Wars movies again and its just totally blown their minds

[–] TandyMan (11349) 7 years ago

If this movie was called Space Fight and made by another studio, you better believe critics would not have been kind. It's all Disney clout.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

if it was called Star Wars, it wouldn't matter what studio it was from... Popular critics no better than to upset the fanatics of this series with bad reviews...

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Or "Stellar Skirmishes"
Perhaps even "Solar Combat"

Oh, and I couldn't help but hear Solar Combat in my head like the yell of the Mortal Kombat song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rehmdUP13kc

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I agree that if it wasn't Star Wars it would have been eviscerated by the critics... but I don't think it's Disney clout. I wish it was! I'd rather that simple explanation than the others. But look at John Carter - that was a Disney Sci-Fi epic and was trashed by the critics.

[–] TandyMan (11349) 7 years ago

If they tweaked John Carter to be a guy from our world getting sucked into Star Wars verse, it would probably be the most popular Star Wars film of all time.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Hmm, that's actually a lot like Den: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den_(comics)

The first Den story, as told in the short film Neverwhere, is clearly inspired by the Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars novels. In the beginning of the film, an office worker is shown reading the 1963 reprint of A Princess of Mars, before he is turned down for a date by a coworker and quits his job. He then builds a machine that opens a portal where a "deposed queen" beckons him to enter another world. Turning into a muscleman he fights several monsters, including four armed monsters reminiscent of Burroughs’ Green Martians. Den is then sent on a mission by the Queen to retrieve the Locnar and, after succeeding, returns home to his mundane life.

[–] TandyMan (11349) 7 years ago

Big Den fan. Still waiting for them to put out an omnibus.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

Also Valerian which was a good space fantasy movie, superior to Star Wars: The Last Jedi, but was trashed by the same critics... perhaps Star Wars nostalgia is the only thing keeping the critics in check and the fans in seats?

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Correct me if I am wrong, but Valerian didn't have feminist, anti-capitalist,animal rights, diversity themes. I really do think that's why.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

Valerian has a female partner, Loureline, who is his equal and who he tries to bang & marry, but he is also a playboy and she's too clever to just be another conquest... there is constant flirting between them... They help one another, save one another and are an effective team and such... So not Last Jedi style feminism, rather equality between the sexes while not turning into androgynous desexualised people... In their intro scene they're both in swimwear flirting with one another... It's French and sophisticated that way... Men and women still need one another after equality and have to relate to one another in a meaningful way... This is more nuanced than anything in a big blockbuster American movie, nevermind the simplistic Last Jedi...

The city of 1000 planets is way in the future, a century after humans have united with one another under their own human federation... the opening scene of the movie is american and russian astronauts on the International Space Station greeting the chinese, then various other countries as time goes by, then various alien species... it's a really nice sequence and I'm not doing it justice at all... The human world still has a hirarchy and a military, but it functions differently as they ultimately answer to a council, which is led by a black man, but it's not made into an issue. There is no diversity theme, it's just a diverse place with a discernable political system... Various alien races handle various parts of the civilisation, from finance and IT to food and such... It feels post capitalist, so political order is not commercially based... But political order and such is part of one of the plot lines, but it's done in a nuanced way (for a space fantasy)... also, the world is not a perfect place, there is still conflict and exploitation and curruption, but it's not a good vs evil Star Wars world... More grey areas...

None of this gets in the way of the fun experience and the drama of the story. rather it enhances it...

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Exactly. But the critics love it when the political agenda's get shoved in their faces. Like TLJ. So a fun and beautifully made movie like Valerian gets shunned, while a piece of dogshit movie like TLJ gets praised. I infinitely liked Valerian more than TLJ, and I'm a hardcore Star Wars fan.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Sounds good - I can see why the critics hated it. Equality is passe now.

[–] Qixoni (101) 7 years ago

Valerian is a wonderful movie. For me, the best movie of 2017 in terms of entertainment. Cara Delevingne is stunning and charismatic. Contrary to what some piss poor american critics say ( perhaps romance and flirtation for them is different), Cara and Dane had fantastic chemistry on screen. The are together again in Tulip Fever and it shows once again.

Valerian is what TLJ should have been. Valerian comics from 1968 are one of the major inspirations of Lucas when he created Star Wars.

TLJ is a movie that should be considered fan fiction.

[–] TheBlackWaffle (226) 7 years ago

Agreed.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

It's an easy way for them to seem relevant and to cheerlead a big popular movie, ironically, it makes them less relevant because they're preceived as just mouthpeices for the industry, instead of giving their own thoughtful views and commentary... But, I actually think a lot of them seem like Star Wars fans... They just like this stuff... As do a lot of fans as well..

If you check out Rotten Tomatoes you'll find two out of the fifty "top critics" classified as rotten... They dislike it for different reasons... Read Richard Brody's review, it's scathing of The Last Jedi because of it's excessive fan service, it's strict packaging of a Star Wars experience and it's depiction of a despiritualised resistence that is machine like and totalitarian... Basically calling it an empty movie...

Brody is as major a critic as they come and is unafraid of being different from the pack (he reviews a lot of obscure films and seems knowledgable of cinema unlike many reviewers)... But if you widen it to include all critics you get 34 negative reviews and start to get dissapointed fanboys on one hand and on the other hand idiosyncratic critics who have their own voice like Armond White, who was once the chairman of the New York Critics Circle, but was also controversially kicked out from it a few years ago... He basically locates the empty consumerism within Star Wars, although he comes to it from a different point of view as someone who not only recognises that the StarWars movies are only watchable to devotees of the series, he also recognises how Johnsons effort is sarcastic and empty where as Lucas' juvenile attempts were at least motivated by some emotion towards family or patriotism...

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Interesting. Generally I avoid reviews and RT tomatoes especially (as it seems designed to reward mediocrity), it's only due to the scale of my disappointment that I've be reading them which led to my being, just, stunned, almost, by how wide of the mark they seem.

Good to know there are some voices of sanity amongst the critics.

I think, in time, that both TLJ and TFA will go down in history as the most overrated films ever made, a moment when the critics collectively blinked and lost either their nerves or their minds. I've only ever seen this kind of disconnect between critics and customers happen with 'arty' film or ones made by a big name name director - you know, those kinds of films everyone kids themselves they like because they want to think they 'get it'. But to see this blind, herd-like praise of films that - almost objectively - have so many clear clear faults and have been made by a corporation with a reputation for a love of money over integrity is just astounding.

Ah well at least the meta story surrounding Star Wars is interesting now even if the ones in the films are utter bollocks.

Roll on episode IX! Will the critics admit defeat? Or would they rather commit seppuku before admitting these are hollowed out husks of corporate opportunism? Vi skal se!

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

i don't bother with rating sites either, as I think they represent a death of film culture to grade movies as if they are cement or consumer products... but it's kind of the point of this thread and an interesting phenomena to discuss...

I think there are thoughtful critics out there, like the two I mentioned, who sometimes make crazy statements on some movies (we all have our favourites), but at least are thinking individuals who care about their own voice and have seen a lot of films and appreciate good movies... Often you'll find their reviews referencing other movies and filmmakers, which is interesting... They have a context that is cinema-literate, which is lacking in a lot of the other reviewers...

Bret Easton Ellis, the guy who wrote American Psycho has interesting reviews of movies and recommendations on his website and in magazines as well as a podcast where he talks to filmmakers sometimes... Expect a very Bret Easton Ellis take on things, though 😉

I like to find authors who know movies, but who can also challenge my ideas about movies and recommend something I won't necessarily find in the same best 10 list that everyone makes of the same best 10 movies (critic groupthink)... But something that is also good and not just obscure because it's bad 😁

The reviews of the next Star Wars movies will be interesting... I agree 👍

[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 7 years ago

4-5 it’s mostly bullshit written to please and not offend. It’s rare to find a journo write how over the top political correctness in Star Wars/Hollywood has become, but the media has a left wing bias in most western countries, so most play it safe like others in the entertainment industry.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

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