Aside from froggy's embarrassing white knighting nobody seems to even bother defending it or even pursuing (edit - meant 'praising') it... Which is incredible given the reviews/box office. The only debate here seems to be on *why* they're so awful and the precise degree of their awfulness. So c'mon, it can't be that hard to defend a film with a metacritic score of 84!
shareI'd be curious to know the average age of all the users reviewing the movie negatively and posting negatively about it on forums. I myself hated it passionately, and I'm 43. It felt like someone was trying to hide something else inside star wars, like Vincent D'onofrio in the first Men in Black when the alien wore his skin as a disguise.
I've spoken to several younger people in person who loved it. I think they don't have the context and the deep attachment many of us older people do to the original story, which was so groundbreaking at the time, so they don't feel the loss with the shitshow of that the latest movies have been. It's just another movie like marvel films to them, so they have nothing better to compare it to.
No doubt. Everbody I've met that likes TLJ also has no trouble talking about how great every single Marvel movie is. Their standards are low in my opinion. They give everything a pass. I personally only enjoyed 2 movies this year, King Kong and American Made. That's so sad 2017 came and went and I only liked(would watch again ) 2 movies. It's almost to the point where I have to get loaded and just go to theater and be able to sit threw Jumanji, Spiderman, and Justice league
shareHey, I'll defend TFA and Rogue 1 all day. I just recently watched those and they are great well-made additions to star wars.
That last act in Rogue 1 is some of the best Stars Wars ever made.
Aside from TFA doing a rehash of A New Hope its great! Perfect? no, but it set e8 up so well and they let RJ completely reck the whole trilogy.
Well Rogue 1 isn't really a sequel so I didn't mean to include that one. I liked it - thought it actually showed almost how easy it is to make a good Star Wars movie. This said it could have been better, felt like they set out trying to tell a 'murky' story about war being hell and then blinked, made it a little lighter.
shareYeah, you could tell the massive reshoots took place in the 3rd act. It feels so much different than the rest of the movie. I would love to know who was actually responsible for what in Rogue 1. Tony Gilroy was brought in during the process but how much he contributed is rumored.
Gareth actually found footage from the original Star Wars just lying around in a storage room at Lucas Film(Footage that was said to be no longer in existence) and that's how we got those pilots from Yavin added in. Also, the idea for the Vader scene was always there but they were afraid Disney wouldn't allow it. During the reshoots, Gareth asked KK if they could do a scene like that and was surprised when she supported it.
Rogue one would be a great film to do a documentary on the production. Personally, I think Rogue one will stand the test of time just like the OT but that's just me.
I'd say the Prequels have less plot holes, better exposition and a more solid structure, but are BORING. I have no fun watching them (although I actually do like some parts of Phantom Menace, even though I know it's the most hated of the saga).
The Sequels have more plot holes, quite a few weak scenes, and does not explain things well in many places (like how the First Order came to be). But they feel more enjoyable. I don't know if the OP is including Rogue One - technically it wouldn't be a sequel, but it's part of the new SW films. And one thing I like about Rogue One/TLJ is that they do show some new things regarding the Force, the backstories of the Rebels and their sacrifices, the moral dilemmas the Rebels face, and the in-fighting among those in the Empire/First Order. It's no longer "clean cut" as it was in the OT. As Martin Scorsese once said, he likes to dirty up both sides a bit.
My ranking generally goes: OT > Sequels + Rogue One > PT
I haven't been really impressed with a Star Wars movie since they came out in the 80's but from a technical level and with some of the action sequences I feel these are quite good. Of course with so much mythology and expectation for these new sequels, they are going to have a tougher time pleasing people.
I'm trying to go for an entertaining, informative youtube channel so, if you have the time, take a look. Hope you enjoy what you see and if you have any thoughts or criticisms, i'd love to hear them. Thanks in advance. Review right here-https://youtu.be/nerCnafPUm8
It was fun, made sense in the terms of the Star Wars universe and opened it up to show that the next one won't simply be a rehash of Return as this one wiped out all the tropes that people expect.
Tropes hit
1) brash hero doesn't mean they will automatically save the day and can be told off about it.
2)The plea of a 'good' woman doesn't turn the villain into a good guy. Shock horror means Kylo Ren will have to be held responsible for his action and not simply have a petted lip about it. Or has a 'heroic' death after being responsible for the countless death by going 'you were right about me'
3)desperate missions tend can do more harm than good.
As for faults, in overall terms I only found three things wrong with it and in the whole scale of things they were minor.
1) the Falcon conveniently swooping in at just the right time at the battle of Crait. Understand it is a trope that it swooped in to save the day but it is still a trope.
2) Leia and Holdo in evening wear rather than military fatigues, like Leia was in Force awakens. But if Johnson had put in a scene explaining there was a formal dinner going on with the whole of the resistance higher command at it discussing how to organise the remains of the republic's forces at the time the call to evacuate happened I would have been happier as it would have explained why they were in those clothes as they aren't practical. Also it would also have explained why no-one from the rim answered the call, most of the high command of both the resistance and the republic military were gone and the remaining republic military weren't happy at the resistance demanding things from them when they had other priorities.
3) Luke's metal hand didn't go clank when he disappeared.
As for the butt hurt of those that didn't like it - tough. They are making another.
Oh and as for the Holdo complaints. Put Sam Elliot in that role in a military outfit instead of Laura Dern and we'd have the gruff white haired military commander we are use to and the butt hurt you lot are having about Holdo would most likely be gone. So what if it was a character with purple hair instead, the lines and delivery made sense, even if I didn't like the costume.
Ok so I think you're the first poster in about 20 that's going to bat for TLJ so thank you for that.
But just have a look at the language you use... You say it was 'fun' which is obviously a great quality to have but is also very vague. Also, trampolining is fun, table tennis is fun, Police Academy was fun... is fun necessarily the hallmark of a great film? The kind that gets the reviews that TLJ has gotten?
And aside from it being 'fun' you haven't really listed anything else positive about it. The three 'hits' are just cliches they avoided and then you go on to list 3 faults. See what I mean? I'm not being funny and you're welcome to your views but it kinda feels like you're damning it with faint praise.
Pretty sure TLJ has the same metacritic score as Aliens and if somebody asked me why I liked that film I'd say: Exciting, scary, great action, great characters, great continuation of the story. I'd be able to quote great lines, real off great scenes like Gorman's last stand or Ripley vs the Queen.
All anybody can say about the sequels is that they're 'fun' and 'Star Warsy' and 'if you ignore the bad bits they're pretty good kinda'. Well fuck me - have a billion quid and please make 57 more!
Really the best you can come up with is criticising my language?
But you are right lots of things are fun including the first police academy movie.
TLJ was an enjoyable, action packed and at times thought provoking film that ripped that tropes used in Return and Empire apart, which I loved. So subverting audience expectation, an audience that really just wanted a comfort food film. Tough you didn't get it. You were made to think and not be sure what would happen next. That is the sign of a really good middle part of a trilogy.
Is it empire - no. But actually a lot of empire (mostly Leia and Han's time in a hole with a big worm and waiting for Lando to betray them is pretty dull and there are plot holes you can drive a bus through - Luke's time with Yoda. Linking Luke's plot to Han and Leia seeing how he went to save them and lands just as Han gets frozen. Practically he would have had to have been with Yoda a day, day and a half?
With Last jedi CGI was top notch, the huge leaps in the force were believable and the characterisations were consistent and development was great throughout the film. Time frames are given so you know how long each plot is taking.
It is one of those films that expands its universe while setting up various plot threads that may or may not be picked up. But it doesn't rap things up as it is one of those films that knows what its job is - to set up the next one. Which it did admirably.
My three minor complaints, involve costuming, scene set up and a the only real time an expected trope was used and because of that you are saying I'm damning it?
Oh off the top of my head complaints about Aliens.
1) 2 dimensional corporate bad guy
2) Trope of useless officer
3) The marines not acting like marines. Like not learning as much info before they went in, like layout
4) Newt's creepy doll head.
I'm not criticising your language just making observations based upon it.
This is my point: I think the Star Wars sequels are terrible movies given a free pass by critics and a lot of the fans. But I can't prove this. No one can. But it's interesting how on this board nobody is even talking about how good it is! It's like that's not even the debate. Now I asked people to actually defend them here and almost nobody has and you've given the best stab at it and even then your words weren't exactly effusive. Nothing wrong with what you wrote but it's not like they'd put that on the poster is it?
"Fun!"
"Next one won't be a rehash"
- fishpan
So yes 'damning with faint praise' is the expression. i.e. When the nicest things you can say about something/someone aren't that great it implies they're not very good/nice.
You see my point? Those two points were you initial response, your instinctive answer for why you think it's good. Think about the Psychology of that. You didn't say 'Fucking loved it, was glued to my seat". You didn't say "This scene was the best xxxx I've seen in a long time". You didn't say "Great characters in a well written story". You said it was fun and the next one won't be a rip off. Do you find it curious those two points were the ones you chose to make? You've made some more tangible points above now but only after prompting.
And I'd disagree about this 'subversion' angle as well. To me its just the main plot points from ESB wish a little RoTJ jammed together. Walkers on an ice pla, sorry, salt planet? Grumpy force guru training the young jedi before dying? The 2nd in command villain killing the top villain? Long extended space chase scene? Doesn't seem subversive to me. Seems massively predictable.
And any flaws with Aliens isn't the point. Go to that board and see the debate and it won't be full of people just saying its shit with a minority saying no, it's great, you just didn't get it etc etc.
No-one comes here to say they liked it because there isn't any point as it is an echo chamber of butt hurt where people tell you, you didn't say what you did. But I liked it, I think it was a good film and know many people who have seen it multiple times.
For you that is faint praise because you want to see it that way; and short of me saying I had multiple orgasms throughout the film, you aren't going to see it any other way because I get it. You didn't like it.
Oh by the way I did say:
'With Last jedi CGI was top notch, the huge leaps in the force were believable and the characterisations were consistent and development was great throughout the film'
But You didn't like it, fine. Don't watch if you don't like. There is no law that says you had to.
As for not being subversive.
Holdo being right. Like or lump it, she was right. If Poe had respected the chain of command there wouldn't have been a mutiny and the transports wouldn't have become a target - usually the commanding officer is a traitor or too set in their ways and wrong and it takes the maverick to open them and save the day.
Poe not suddenly pulling a maverick stunt that saves the day. In fact all his stunts got people killed.
Rose and Finn's mission - big fat failure instead of the hail mary pass that save the day.
The walkers on the salt planet - what did they do other than shoot Luke - not much actually
Grumpy Jedi training young Jedi and then dying. Subverted by her leaving, him not telling her off about cutting of her training and he didn't die saving her or telling her she'd do okay.
The 2nd in command killing the first - sure but Snoke didn't die because he was redeeming himself and Kylo didn't do it to save himself or because he wanted redeemed.
Long extended space chase - one hell of a long space chase. The tension was different than your usual space chases. It lasted the majority of the film. Chases don't tend to last that long with no rest bite outside experimental movies.
But *why* is it an eco chamber? How did that happen when is has wall to wall great reviews and made over a billion?
And it's ridiculous to say 'nothing short of multiple orgasms'. You're pretty much the only one here that's even tried to defend TLJ and when you do it's with pretty mild terminology. There's just no arguing about that.
Do you know my term of speech, no. So to you it is faint praise.
For me it might be the way I do give extreme praise, but you don't even let that be a possibility. You have cherry picked parts you feel are mild.
I did use the word 'great' to describe the characters and their development - but you ignored that. The CGI - top notch. Told me that I am not defending it enough. I said the tropes were being subverted dismissed that out of hand without showing me how they weren't
When you brought out Aliens - I said there were bits I didn't like. You told me to go elsewhere. You brought up Aliens as an example of what in your opinion is a 'great' film. I just criticised it to show my problems with it are actually greater than my three minor ones with TLJ. Which you jumped on.
These are reasons why this forum has become an echo chamber. People hear don't debate, they dismiss or start towards denigration. Your OP say 'froggy's embarrassing white knighting', that isn't a preamble to a debate that is...well you know what that is.
Now you are going to say I'm a snowflaking or am easily offended. But tough, you asked why is this forum an echo chamber and I have just answered and please ask yourself what was you expectation when you asked this question.
Did you truly want a response in defense of the film or people to agree with you about not liking it?
I don't know your style of speech, no, but what else have I to go on?
I didn't cherry pick anything, that is what you said and you didn't use the word 'great' until later in the thread.
I hate echo chambers which is why I started a thread asking for people to explain why they like a film I don't. I am enjoying this exchange and respect your views.
Froggy and I go way back (if he was the same Frog from the Prometheous boards) and I enjoy having a poke at him and I think he took it the right way and i respect that (see somewhere above in the thread).
As for Aliens I am not sure you get my point. Yes I think it's a great film and yes it has flaws (the bit where they get told they can't use their guns and just. keep. going. is actually one of the dumbest and most infuriating scenes in cinema) but that board is (or was in imdb days) full of debate about strengths, weaknesses, etc, as are most. This board (and TFA) just seem very very different and yet they have the same MC score of 86 . Now you can say that it's due to trolls, misogynists, idiots or whatever but which ever forum doesn't have that?
And as for your extended comments on TLJ giving it some more concrete praise - fair enough. But you're still *the* most positive person on the thread and even you gave a mixed, nuanced opinion. Metacritic gives the following:
53 Positive
3 mixed
0 negative
So where are all the views that reflect that kind of spread? How hard can it be to defend a film from all the accusations of plot weaknesses when not a single 'professional' reviewer gave a negative review. And not just in this thread, but the forum (and on IMDB for TFA before it). Why is there this huge disconnect?
I'm not trying to tell you how to enjoy a movie, I'm just trying to understand how we've ended up at this point.
True what have you got to go on. But I said fun and your response - not to ask how much fun I felt it was but to go
'table tennis is fun'
At this point after reading across this forum - I'm bracing myself for an attack and more than half thinking it isn't worth the hassle, just like janelsenor seems to have decided to do.
Read the forum, you defend this fil without seeming meek in some way and you get piled on about agenda's and Mary Sue's and not understanding true Star Wars
I liked it, didn't feel it had an agenda apart from expanding the Universe to more than what we had seen before. But hey what do I know.
I defend it in a way that I feel won't get attacked, you tell me it isn't good enough. Then expand and you dis regard the positive praise I gave and go on about how ridiculous it is to say that I felt that you'd only take what I said seriously if I said I came on my seat through it because you claimed my praise is faint because I didn't go' Fuck I was glued to my seat.'
Critics liked it because maybe they liked it. Maybe Disney threatened to put a contract on their first born, I don't know.
What I do know, if Aliens came out today, the same BS that happened on this Forum would happen in its forum too.
Ripley would be considered a Mary Sue, overpowered. There is an agenda about the bit she drove the saved the marines. Marines wouldn't act the way they did in the film.
THere would be multiple meanings regarding 'Game over.' Basically the same echo chamber effect as here.
Yes, I understand it's frustrating when your views seem to get jumped on and drowned out. It's a big problem with the Internet and I find it disappointing on this forum that there's less people doing what you're doing now - taking the time to explain your views without getting personal.
It does seem to be about 95% "haters" here so I can see why you'd brace yourself. But I never said what you said wasn't 'good enough' and I hope it didn't sound like that. I was observing that the most articulate defence of the film (at least on this thread) wasn't effusive with praise. I'm not saying you didn't defend it well enough or that you *needed* to say '...glued to my seat...' I just found it interesting that *nobody* seems to be saying anything like that.
Look at it from my point of view (and the views of others here, roughly).
We love Star Wars and are excited to see the sequels come out.
We see them and are very disappointed.
Then we look to the reviews and we don't see our views represented. At all.
Then we think 'are we crazy' and we go online and see, nope, thousands/millions feel the same.
And that is pretty fucking annoying!
Not only do we have poor Star Wars films we have no catharsis from respected reviews tearing it a part, pointing out the flaws that we felt spoilt things.
Now we have the bizarre situation where almost no body is even claiming the TLJ was any good - despite it not having a single negative review in ANY main stream outlet.
You liked the film. Great. I'm happy for you - I'm not trying to make you feel bad for finding joy in something, what gets to me is this massive disconnect between the critics and the audience. I know it's not a conspiracy I know Disney didn't pay everyone off so like I say, my theory is that many people have 'gone easy' on Star Wars and other films don't get that treatment. You could well be right about Aliens if it had been released now but somehow I think we'd see more people extolling it's virtues.
I get it maybe frustrating for you but a lot of people probably feel safer to leave those who'd jump down their throats alone rather than talk, if you stay, you don't effuse and even then you know you'll have to know you'll have to fight for your right to be here.
The thing is I loved Star Wars too and so did a lot of people before the fandom BS scared them from forums.
I remember watching the originals as a kid.
I remember getting excited about the prequels. Yes I went to see them at the cinema and to be honest apart from Darth Maul's light sabre fight,there is no iconic moment for me out of the three. There is nothing that matches the run at the trench. Nothing like 'You're a little short for a storm trooper', Nothing to beat the elevator ride in Return, Leia in that bikini using the chain to strangle Jabba, nothing like Hoth.
I remember my Dad going Lucas could film shit running down the screen and folk would be stupid enough to watch.
But the sequels, we have Kylo stopping that bolt, Finn with that blood on his helmet, Rey closing her eyes light saber in hand and Han's lifeless body falling. Here we have Luke turning up at Crait, Kylo and Rey fighting in Snokes chamber. We have Holdo ripping through the fleet. Are they 'I am your father' No, but they are all pretty damn good.
All of these moments make sense in the context of the story and in the Star Wars Universe and we have character development on top of an expanding universe. And I know there won't be type of catharsis you talk about as this is modern directors knowing they are getting an expanded universe to play with over at least three films - the next one has to be the one where the end is & even then its an EU
And as for Aliens are you sure they would be extolling its virtues or would the trolls get in and claim that Gale Anne Hurd had forced her husband James Cameron to destroying Ridley Scott's work but forcing a feminist/LGBT agenda into a film that paints heterosexual men as disposable?
Yes, the prequels were rubbish. But you know what I convinced myself at the time that they were great. I made excuses for them 'oh if you ignore Jar Jar and Anakin being annoying then it's great' 'it's only the first part of a trilogy etc etc'. Then over time reality set in and I realised there was no way around it - they're bad films (but they do have their moments and at least technically they were groundbreaking).
And now I see exactly the same thing happening only this time it's gone up a notch - I see cognitive dissonance on an epic scale. Empire was always my favourite film magazine and after I saw TFA - and was crushingly disappointed - I went to read their review and it basically said 'Well if you ignore all the failures it's great. 5*s' I mean, what the fuck? The sequels seem to be getting reviewed the way someone would review a kids painting stuck on a fridge. "Ooo, good effort, gold star!".
And another thing - prequels are always shit. Because you know how they end! They're kind of hamstrung from the beginning and has there ever been a decent prequel? But the sequels could have gone *anywhere* told *any* story in this amazing universe that we have. And instead they boiled it down, bleached it and shrink wrapped it in cellophane.
And I don't think its trolls. More and more I see that word is becoming to mean 'people I disagree with'. A troll is just trying to wind you up and will say anything to do it. Go to Youtube and type in TFA or TLJ and you will find hundreds of videos full of people with hundreds of thousands of views and likes screeching about how bad these films are. Yes it's all a bit silly but a lot of that is coming from the anger of being misled - not from a conspiracy to wind up people on forums.
Neither of these films are 5*s. Now I don't mind if you personally think they are but something has gone badly wrong when *all* the critics are saying the same thing. Look at the divergence on RT and Meta Critic. It's ridiculous.
I disagree about the sequels, they should at least hold up as a cohesive couple of films, unlike the prequels.
And how much has the experience with the prequels soured these sequels? Because last Jedi did subvert a lot of things we were expecting. Snoke doesn't have to be anyone, Rey may or may not have a bloodline. The maverick or hail mary mission didn't save the day, in fact they kill more people than save and in the terms of a lot of people in this universe the 'good' guys aren't different than the bad. Which in the world today has some resonance.
Hell I'd even say that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, because in TLJ, DJ is the Mary Sue. He's Johnson - sticking to his guns and doing his own thing which to him makes sense and the expectations of others are not sacred.
As for it not being trolls, I don't think that is becoming 'people I disagree with' I think that it is becoming people who denigrate anyone else who disagrees or the angry screeching. To me there is a big difference. As I said you don't like fine that is your personal opinion.
If anything though I think all that is going to do is damage films and you get...well Justice league. Executives in an office not caring about bad CGI miss mashing stories and hiring directors whose styles are too different to be let anywhere near the same project. They know people will turn up even if they screech about how this film has raped their childhood as Henry Cavill still isn't wearing his underpants outside and how batman doesn't use guns - screw Burton and Keaton did.
I don't really view the prequels as being in the same universe. I certainly never think of Hayden Christensen in the Darth Vader suit.
Subversion is great but unfortunately this doesn't feel like a well written story subverting expectations it feels like a story written by two different people with different ideas.... and I'd say it's hard to deny that. For example if one author had set out to tell a story about how you didn't have to be 'somebody' to be the greatest jedi then great, but JJ clearly wasn't going in that direction and RJ wasn. And I think RJ changed things because - far from 'setting up' story lines - JJ wrote him into a corner.
And the success and reception to TFA is part of the reason why we got Justice League - not fan boys complaining. The past decade has seen a very unfortunate shift away from story to spectacle. There's lots of reasons for this - one is piracy, one isTV (film can not compete with a 10 hour TV show in terms of story), but a big one is a lowering of the bar especially by the professional critics. And it's heartbreaking for me. I love film with a passion and I barely bother going to the cinema any more. I am sick of seeing plot holes/contrivances/coincidence/deus ex machina etc etc. It's just not good enough. You wouldn't accept the sound boom swinging into shot so why accept shoddy writing like an earth quake separating Rey and Ren in TFA or R2D2 'Waking up' and giving the last piece of the puzzle. I had my first professional writing job last summer and I can tell you I'd die of shame before I tried to put something like that in a story.
And for an extremely unscientific analysis I had a look at 'the shape of water' which has a similar score (86) and came out at the same time as TLJ and I have to say it was ALL negative posts (on the front page at least)! So maybe you have a point!
Saying that I haven't seen it so maybe it *is* crap. Wouldn't know.
Haven't seen it either, so can't judge.
shareI liked it but see no need to defend it. The movie has flaws. If they ruin the movie for you, I doubt I’ll convince you otherwise.
shareOk, here goes (and I give Lucasfilm / Disney permission to use this on any posters or DVD covers); the reason I liked TLJ is because it’s -
“not as shite as The Force Awakens.”