MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > JJ is to blame

JJ is to blame

posted 7 years ago by Arghhhh (804)
45 replies | jump to latest

It's a relief to see some kind of sanity creeping back into Star Wars with the user reviews rightly reflecting what Disney have done to the series but one thing that worries me is that 'ol slipping Jimmy himself - JJA - seems to be 'getting away' without receiving his share of the blame.

Let's not forget he has previous - he turned Star Trek, which whatever its faults was the most successful 'hard' sci fi series in history into the Fast and the Furious crossed with Pluto Nash.

His attempt to rip off Amblin was a botched mess and has since been totally eclipsed by Stranger Things (when you're getting out directed by the Duffer brothers you know you're a hack).

Do I need to mention Lost?

And now I see people thinking it'll be a good thing he's back for IX. He didn't just screw the pooch on TFA he screwed the pooches wife and sat around the house in the pooches dressing gown and slippers. A total fucking carbon copy that managed to both steal from and fuck up the original, his 'mystery box' style of non-writing painted RJ into a corner and could he even muster some nice visuals from a $200M budget? Nope. Shitty CGI aliens abound and not one single memorably filmed sequence in the whole debacle. At least RJ managed to create some some visually stunning sequences - even if he shares JJA's contempt for plot and character.

So why the fuck does this guy keep getting away with it?

Said it before and will say it again - he's just a poor mans Michael Bay with a gender studies degree.

[–] darkpast (8722) 7 years ago

LOST is great

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Incorrect

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

Lost looked great because everybody assumed there was a logic behind. It looked like an amazing and incredibly clever puzzle... until they confessed that they were just making up random stuff without any internal logic.

Basically, it was a scam. It used the contract between writer and public: if the writer creates a mystery and leaves clues, it's accepted that those clues make sense at the end of the story. So the reader/viewer enjoys the mystery knowing that there's a logic inside, even though he can't find it yet. If the writer is just making up stuff and fooling the viewer, he's abusing the trust of the public. And he's destroying someway that contract, since the public will find harder to trust the writer and and will be more reluctant to follow his game.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Well put! But it's actually worse than that... they went on the record, time and time again, saying this was going somewhere, that they had it all figured out.

Lying cunts.

But what surprised me isn't that they made it all up as they went along - that was pretty apparent in the 2nd season with the abrupt shift into sci fi - it was that they were made up for the ending was so bad. They should just have picked the best internet fan theories rather than the giant but-plug story line (which I presume was a deliberate fuck you to everyone who bothered to watch until the end).

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

Yeap. 1st and (partially) 2nd season could have made sense with the purgatory theory. But (I suppose) it would be difficult to keep the mystery going when you have already a theory that would fit any new event. So they likely decided that solving that problem was too much work and it would be easier just to make up random stuff.

Jump Jump Abrams pattern is to use things and to jump to the new one leaving a wasteland behind. Lost made far more difficult for screenwriters to plot a mystery in a TV series, because the public don't trust the writers as they used to do. But JJ was already jumped. He trashed the Star Trek movie franchise, and then he left Justin Lin with the trashed stuff. He's doing the same with the Star Trek TV series. He trashes stuff, and then quickly gets out leaving other people stuck with the mess.

He was supposed to direct another movie in the next trilogy, and then suddenly he went on with the episode IX. My guess: he knows that episode IX still will make money since people will watch how the trilogy ends... but anything else is gonna be a big flop. He will make episode IX and will get out of Star Wars quickly, before the shit hits the fan.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Absolutely. He's actually a genius when you think of it. He's got himself directing gigs despite having no discernible talent and ruined two of the best loved film franchises in history without harming his reputation. I genuinely think of him as a Frank Underwood type character, he's obviously a very skilled political operator and smart business man. Let's be honest, his success to talent ratio is off the fucking charts.

His manoeuvring with Star Wars is incredible: set up a story that goes nowhere, let RJ take the heat of the fans when the nonexisting story lines begin to show cracks, then step in as 'saviour'.

But it will be very interesting.... will he be forced to actually write an ending for once? But then there's talk of this other trilogy so maybe we can get some more 'mysteries' to be left open for that?

I'd love to see the fucker's chickens come home to roost but unfortunately I think too many people have invested too much effort in convincing themselves this new trilogy isn't shit already to let it fail. My prediction is that we will have more of the same:

A lazy rehash of the few Star Wars elements not all ready reheated
Lando and/or Wedge to make a heroic return before being promptly killed off
He'll Throw a bone to the Rey/snoke background issue with some clunky expository hand waving but actual satisfactory explanations will be non existent
And the rest will just be explosions, lens flare and noise.

The critics will love it. The fans will hate it but still watch it. Everyone else will go see it and forget about it. Salon will cream themselves as Rey becomes god empress of the known universe. It'll make Billions but only a fraction of what it would have done if it had actually been any good, and we'll be here fighting the good fight/arguing with strangers on the internet.

Can't wait!

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

In my opinion, JJ didn't want to end the trilogy himself because he knows that while creating a lot of plotlines is easy, creating plotlines that WORK together as a story is the difficult task (as RJ has discovered dealing with what JJ left), but after the high backlash he better makes the ep.IX that facing the big flop to come. My guess: he won't really end the trilogy, but will create (again) new plotlines to be sold as a "thrilling bridge to the next trilogy" and will let the shitty mess to RJ (or any other fool). As you say, there won't be any actual satisfactory explanations but flares and flames a lots of new ideas that lead (again) nowhere. Time will tell.

And you're right, he's a very smart businessman and knows well what the public is demanding (he went into the retro trend before anybody else with Super8), but that's it. That's all.

By the way, the "flares" stuff is a very clever businessman trick. He wants to project some image of "author" that makes pop-corn movies, kind of Spielberg, to hide that the movies are pure cgi and explosions. So before people identify you with CGI and explosions, give them some red herring. Michael Bay should have done the same.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Yep - totally agree.

[–] crc32 (2584) 7 years ago

Then you're not paying attention, crc. He has accomplished an amazing amount of things. But rather than drone on by listing his many accomplishments, I'll just give you this one statistic:

It felt like the X-files. They were making it all up one show at a time,

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Arghhhh, have you seen JJA's TED talk about his damn "mystery box"? Some stupid gift he received from his grandfather when he was a child and still hasn't opened yet, because he's obsessed with the bloody things.

I agree, JJA's Lost was CRAP, he ruined Star Trek, he ruined Star Wars yet idiots applaud him for rehashing a better movie in his own stupid style, and now RJ (although he's no better) has to pick up the pieces. And fucking Jar Jar Abrams will be back to rehash ROTJ in the next movie, and the whole sequel trilogy will be FUCKED UP! And people call the Prequels crap! Believe me, they're certainly better than this FIRST Disney Star Wars trilogy.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

Kennedy's Star Wars has given me new appreciation for the prequels. George just needed to hire a great director and most of the prequels' problems would have been fixed.

[–] crc32 (2584) 7 years ago

The direction of the prequels was fine. Lucas needed to hire writers instead if writing the stories and dialog him self.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

He did hire a writer for aotc. Worst of the trilogy.

[–] crc32 (2584) 7 years ago

So who wrote the love scenes between anakin and portman. Who wrote the "I hate sand" dialog. Or the "I die a little each day I'm not with you"> < Barf >

[–] Xenopharb (617) 7 years ago

The "I hate sand" line was supposed to be his reason for not coming home to Tatooine and discovering Luke.

How about not placing the child with his real aunt and uncle.

Lucas messed up Star Wars before JJ did, but these Disney films are not great either.

[–] Eli (63) 7 years ago

Apparently hired the wrong writer then haha

[–] CoachGainz (453) 7 years ago

Truth.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I haven't and I doubt I could watch it without punching the screen. It also sounds like a nice bit of marketing spin, a good bit of hockey charm for the plebs to lap up. In fact now that I think about it his entire 'mystery box' style is just marketing spin - it's not a flaw it's a feature it's *meant* to be retarded etc.

Got to hand it to the little fuck - he knows how to spin. He should be a politician really, that way he could only fuck up reality and not our childhood memories.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

Tfa was fun , and it wasn't a carbon copy at all , he introduced new characters and interesting story arcs, star trek 1 is a dam fine movie , TFA didn't make 2 billion for being a shit movie , fans loved it , it was just wait the franchise needed and it's a dam sight better than tlj , can't understand how u can blame jj for tlj, Rian Johnson had some good stories to build on but instead just dismissed them

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Oh, damn, I thought you were talking about Star Trek: The Motion Picture for a second, there. Yep, now THAT is a damn fine movie.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

'Fun'. You can't even bring yourself to say 'good' because your conscience won't let you.

If it isn't a copy name me one other film (outside of remakes) that so closely follow another's story line & characters.

The new characters are awful. We have Rey who's a gender swapped Luke with super powers so ludicrous they ruin all dramatic tension and established mythos, Finn who's apparently a trained killer from birth but acts like he's auditioning for Bad Boys II, Ren whose annakin with none of the charm or, you know, explanations for why he's evil, some sorry CGI Yoda, and then Hux, who has all the menace of a perturbed red setter. Then there's the original cast, probably the best loved characters in history and they piss all over them.

The 'interesting story lines' are bollocks and would require RJ to come up with answers that satisfied 2 years of hype. Why bother threading that needle when the audience and critics didn't care about the gaping holes and contrivances of VII, Is it any wonder he just thought 'fuck it'?

Box office is no indicator of quality and it is clear anything would have raked in billions. TFA is unique in history as it had massive hype (thanks to the originals) but low expectations (thanks to the prequels).

JJAs Star Trek is as dumb as they come but crucially, it wasn't Star Trek. If you want to make a breezy space action film then go nuts! But fuck off with stealing the ideas of more talented people.

The guy is a parasite.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

You make some good points, after tlj I have gone off the new characters but that's down to Rian Johnson, Id be having a go at him a hell of a lot more than jj, tlj is a fucking abortion

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Well tbf Looper was a big mess as well so maybe you're right about RJ.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

from the very beginning I thought it was going to be a huge mistake, hes an indie director , id rather they of got someone like Spielberg , fincher or even Joe Johnston who worked on the original trilogy, JJ gave us something to talk about and unravel in episode 8, who is snoke, how did they get the lightsaber, who are reys parents, Johnson just dismissed these and instead foused on a car chase in space until someone ran out of gas, and don't get me started on the god awful spaceballs type jokes, at least we can agree on one thing, Disney are making a mess of this franchise, although I must say Rogue One was a bloody good movie.

[–] croft_alice (12180) 7 years ago

The studios have a part of the blame,too.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 7 years ago

Are you really going to blame JJ for TLJ?? Rian Johnson is to blame and nobody else. RJ was writer director he held 80-90% of the creative control.

I can see why people don't like JJ's style he set up storys and ideas with no idea where he is going with it. Personally I like this. It adds to the mystery not even JJ knows what is going to happen. The problem with TLJ is that RJ had no interested in going down JJ's set up rabbit hole and abandoned it all.

Kennedy should have read RJ's draft before hiring him to helm it. Also, should have had JJ actually produce/co-write it instead of giving him executive producer credit to show up at a meeting here and there. They know they messed up and that's why they are bringing him back for E9. Problem was Disney was ready to start making cash off their investment and pushed to get everything moving and setting up a Marvel style cash machine. Remember TFA was originally going to be released in May and Disney was set on it until JJ told them noway it was happening. They rushed everything that's why they are back peddling now and firing directors left and right.

Super nervous RJ is set for a new trilogy which was probably Disney's plan for phase 2. Until they saw how the hardcore dependable fans reacted to TLJ.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Yes I am. That is kind of the point. RJ only had total control of a story already compromised by someone who actively dislikes stories and let me say this: the ending IS the story. If the ending is shit it's a bad story. If there's no ending then there is no story. And there is no story to TFA there's just stolen plot from ANH and then some TBC mystery box shit.

Rabbit hole? Don't insult Lewis Carol by associating him with this hack.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 7 years ago

Oh please.... RJ threw everything JJ set up out the window. The story for TLJ was garbage and there is nobody to blame for that except Johnson and Kennedy to some degree for allowing him to film a garbage script.

A good writer would have explored the world JJ set up and expanded the universe. They would have come up with intelligent answers and thoughtful directions. Don't give RJ any breaks because he was given a set up without a map to guide him to the answers. He signed onto the project free willing.

If you don't like JJ and his style cool don't watch his movies but blaming somebody for a bad movie that they didn't write or even direct is foolish at best.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I'm not defending RJ and you're right about TLJ but it's hard building something on rotten foundations. There's a big big difference between unanswered questions and threads left hanging to be expanded upon in a sequel and what we actually got, which was the *absence* of plot points. JJ didn't 'set up' anything, he just left big empty spaces in lore, world building and character development and crucially these empty spaces all belong in the story prior to VII not after it.

JJA essentially made part VIII not apparently giving a shit about how the fuck they'd fill in both the past and the future for the next film.

Yes, RJ could have done a better job (so could most of us here) but as a writer myself I know how hard it is to tell one story, never mind while simultaneously fixing the mistakes of somebody elses.

Look at somebody like Rey... when Luke meets Vader in Empire he gets destroyed. Vader doesn't even break a sweat; we think Luke is holding his own and then we learn Vader is just fucking with him. Vader is the master, Luke is the apprentice, and when the apprentice goes unprepared against the master he doesn't just get beaten, he gets humiliated. And by his father no less. Not only is this fantastic drama in itself it sets things up perfectly for when they meet again in Jedi - Luke is now stronger, he has completed his training, he beats Vader but in doing so almost loses himself and then ultimately triumphs over the emperor due to the love he holds for his Father. Star Wars gets a lot of shit (especially since the sequels!) for being a kids movie, for being about 'Space Wizards' but this story arc is timeless and is equal to anything from the greats, Sophocles would have given his left bollock to write something like this.

TBC...

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Now back to Rey. She's super duper shiny and flawless and beats Ren without much effort the first time they meet. Yeah yeah he was injured but from a story point of view it's still fucked as it totally destroys the emotive impact of them meeting again. How do you write that? How do you 'fix' it? Fucked if I know so I can see why RJ just dodged that bullet and just has Rey hanging around a bit. The matrix sequels had the same problem - they turned Neo into a god by the end of the first film so the following two were fucked.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 7 years ago

You're absolutely correct with all of your statements about the OT. I would give Kasdan a lot of credit with how Vader turned out. His script for the empire strikes back is incredible film making. He took all the characters from star wars and appropriately expanded on them in interesting directions. I would argue that Vader was the main character of ESB a bold move being that he was the primary villain. One of the reasons I like TFA is because it had good characters. I would argue Rey, Fin, Poe, and Kylo were interesting new characters with story lines that we wanted to see continued. Kasdan!

About Rey, yes you are correct that it makes zero sense for her to be that powerful with little to no training with the force. However, I would argue that it did make sense in the TFA. I say that because we were lead to believe Rey was a somebody. Snoke and Kylo were seemingly both aware of who she was as if she was somebody of extreme importance.

I was always under the impression she was a gifted student of Luke's academy. Somebody Kylo grew resentful of as he was expected to be the most powerful having the Skywalker bloodline. She somehow survived the assault on his temple and was stowed away from Snoke, Kylo, and the first order similar to how Luke was from the Emperor and Vader. So when she reappears during the hunt for the map to Luke, Kylo and Snoke are very concerned for they feared her power.

If she had trained in the Jedi arts since childhood and was naturally gifted that would explain how she was able to do the things she did in TFA. It would also give some light to why Kylo turned to the darkside he was jealous and craved the power and saw Snoke as his only avenue to rise to the greatness that was Vader his grandfather.

That's the direction I would have taken. But me and Johnson are not on the same page apparently. His idea was to just say she was a nobody that is a super force user just because it looked cool on screen and that's what the plot needed.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] LetThemEatCake (2717) 7 years ago

don't watch him.

[–] pzogel (187) 7 years ago

Whoever decided to let both JJ and RJ simply do their thing w/o bothering to produce a rough sketch of what each episode is supposed to contain is to blame as well. Neither JJ could have gotten away with his mystery box crap nor RJ could have had free reign in regard to the breadcrumbs JJ left him if both would have been obligated to follow an actual story arc for the three movies. The whole ST has been handled amateur-like.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

dont forgot larry kasden co wrote TFA

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I really doubt that. Pretty sure he got given an enormous cheque so they could use his name. Sure he wrote a few lines but that mess is pure JJA.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

He wrote the script, this hatred you have for jja is irrational, tfa wasn't a mess , it made 2 billion Bo and was rated very highly by fans and critics , I find it far far better than tlj

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Something I meant to say in the OP as well. One of the reasons - I believe - TLJ is being more harshly received is because TFA used up so much good will. You could see this in the reviews ("great, if you ignore all the flaws!") and IMDb where most of the debate was people defending it rather than celebrating it. It might have made a shit ton and got a lot of good reviews but it burned through a lot of goodwill/nostalgia and TLJ has had a harder ride because of that.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] darkpast (8722) 7 years ago

Rian Johnson
‏Verified account @rianjohnson
28 May 2017

I’m sure they talked about where it might go early on, but when they came to me there was no mapped story presented beyond TFA.
18 replies 50 retweets 87 likes

Jenny
‏ @JennyButler95
29 May 2017
Okay, NOW I'm worried.
2 replies 1 retweet 17 likes

Rian Johnson
‏Verified account @rianjohnson
29 May 2017
We’re all going to get through this together, Jenny. 😊
6 replies 8 retweets 48 likes

Shelley Lebel
‏ @LebelShelley
29 May 2017
Please do yourselves a favor and watch Rian's other movies esp. the beautifully written/directed Brothers Bloom. TLJ is in the best hands!
1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes

Jenny
‏ @JennyButler95
29 May 2017
I have zero doubts about Rian's directing/writing skills, I'm just worried about the overall plot for the ST not being planned AT ALL. 😅
3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes

Rian Johnson
‏Verified account @rianjohnson
29 May 2017
Well, we're not improving it all on set. It is very carefully planned, but one piece at a time, each building off the previous movie.
5 replies 10 retweets 34 likes

Rian Johnson
‏Verified account @rianjohnson
29 May 2017
Haha sorry IMPROVISING not IMPROVING. Bad type
3 replies 4 retweets 25 likes

Rian Johnson‏Verified account @rianjohnson
Replying to @rianjohnson @JennyButler95 @LebelShelley
Typo. Not type. Geeeez
5:42 PM - 29 May 2017

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/869353299820007425

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Christ this is cringe. I know typos are easily done but for a guy getting stick for his writing you think he'd proof read before tweeting?

And as for no over arching story it is just maddening. A 4 billion USD investment, the sequel to the most iconic movies in history and they're just making it all up as they go along. Such fucking arrogance.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

this i agree with , Lucas had a clear vision even before he lifted the camara to direct ANH , Disney just turn up and say , how much money can we make today then