MovieChat Forums > Black Mirror (2011) Discussion > Am I missing the point of White Bear?

Am I missing the point of White Bear?


I'm mixed about the episode and it bothered me to the point I felt sorry for Victoria. I realize she is a criminal and needs to be punished but what's the point of punishment if she can't remember it and there is no rehabilitation? Also, the calendar seemed to indicate that this would last for a month and then they move on to the next "attraction". This episode could have been a two parter to explain more of the back story and the point of the punishment on the prisoner. Or, maybe this is more about how society views punishment and this form of punishment satisfies their anger. If anything I think they should have just executed her because eventually they will screw her up more so than how she started.

I just felt kind of cheated. White Bear didn't give me enough information to sort out my feelings about Victoria or understand the real point of the punishment park. It all seemed unnecessary. I realize that I could say the same about other episodes leaving out important details but the other episodes were more entertainment for me. I guess White Bear hit a nerve.

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Dude, no, you've got the 'point' in one!

Everything you've just said is the entire point of the episode; it's supposed to make you think about these things. It was meant to hit that 'nerve' and make you uncomfortable.

You nailed it towards the end of your first paragraph; this was a social commentary on how a lot of people in society want to see brutal punishments for certain types of criminals in order to satisfy their anger, and that often, the punishments demanded are sicker than the actual crimes, and the people demanding them just as twisted as the criminals they hate.

The episode was not endorsing the form of punishment depicted in it, in fact it was entirely the opposite. You're asking all the right questions, but I find it a little amusing that haven't 'got' that that's what you're meant to be doing. That feeling of discomfort you're feeling is intentional! :)

You say you saw other Black Mirror episodes as purely 'entertainment' - I get the feeling that maybe you're not getting the point of Black Mirror, and not appreciating it as it's meant to be appreciated, and that White Bear was simply the first episode you actually 'got', and experienced on the level the rest of us do. Every episode of Black Mirror has a 'point' to them, and they're all meant to unsettle you.

So don't fret! The episode was on your side! :)





You Dare Agree With Me?!

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I don't think the punishment was sicker than the crime. We can't see how brutally that little girl who was kidnapped was tortured, perhaps sexually assaulted, and then murdered.

It's a damn good idea and wouldn't cost tax payers.



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I think the entire point of the episode is to make everyone think. All of the episodes are supposed to make you think. The big point of this episode is that society is hypocritical. The crowd is doing exactly what the criminal did. The woman may or may not have been under the spell of her fiance. That's not the point. The people going to the Justice Park are going there with their children, voluntarily, excitedly and deliberately, gleefully. Who is worse? Has "civilized" society really changed that much since the Roman Coliseum? When criminals were hung in medieval England people make a day of it and truly enjoyed themselves. Concessions were sold. Tickets had to be distributed to the last public hanging in the county in which I live. That was over one hundred years ago but I don't know that things truly change. Remember the crowds in Iraq when the military personnel were captured before the war in 2003 and hung on the bridge and had their bodies set on fire? The crowd cheered. If U-S military forces had captured Osama bin Laden in October 2001 and brought him back to Times Square in New York City, what would the American crowd have done? Would we shake our heads and say "how terrible?" Seriously. Punishment? Justice? Torture? Terror? Where is the difference? It can be a good thing for people to be uncomfortable sometimes. That's when change happens.

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I agree that the spectators are perverted. The guy says, "Most importantly, enjoy yourself." And this is what their spectatorship is about.

Now, I don't understand why some people here keep saying that the Victoria is sympathetic. She's scared and helpless. Sympathetic is when you display some acts of kindness.

Lastly, the statement "I don't believe that society owes anything to its members" is pretty hilarious. Hobbes anyone?

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Was it just me prior to the reveal I felt Victoria was much like the watchers. She watched the killers come shoot that guy in the store and didn't help in the least. All she did was scream and run and never gave a thought to helping anyone but herself.

As far as society is concerned, nothing has changed in centuries. You have some, like Victoria and the people visiting the "park" that just like to sit back and watch. You have others who are so angry that just killing someone isn't enough.

White Bear didn't have a good guy. Obviously it was saying some things about both media and the public, but it also was not trying to have sympathize with the child killer.

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I kind of feel sorry for her as well but I think its because it isn't revealed what is happening to her until the end.

Up until the end, we think she is a victim and a good person so we develop a need for her to survive so when it is actually revealed we still feel a little sorry for her.

That's what happened with me anyway

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I find it really disturbing that some people here think the punishment fits the crime.

Victoria clearly has no idea what she is punished for.

I used to think my dad was Elvis. I haven't told him that yet. I haven't told my dad either.

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lol. After the reveal, I didn't feel sorry for her.

I didn't really like her beforehand. All I could think of was that the she was a ball and chain to the other woman (who ultimately gets her to follow her and trust her).

This could make an excellent full movie ... a kind of a groundhogs day zapping to see if she ever does anything different each time she comes to.

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I think he intentionally put this in a grey area to make people really think about crime and punishment. If the person being tortured was the boyfriend who killed the girl I think many people who find this distasteful might change there minds.

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The point was to show just how twisted, demented, and vengeful, seemingly normal law abiding people are.

It also makes a point to the fact that the 'justice' system is concerned more with punishment rather than rehabilitation because again, this is what people want.

To make matters worse we live in an age of mass surveillance where framing someone with a crime they did not commit is effortless for the powers that be, combined with the generally low intelligence and bloodlust of the vox populi makes for a true dystopian nightmare for anyone who holds unpopular opinions or doesn't seem to fit in.

The moral of this story, at least to me, is to never get taken alive no matter what, shoot first and either run or go out in a hale of bullets.

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We have overpopulation. Heinous acts against society should not be tolerated.

It costs money to rehabilitate, to jail, or keep someone on death row for decades.

If you had a young daughter who was kidnapped, tortured, and god know what until she died, you wouldn't want to see the perp gets his/her dues?

I seen it as that woman's twilight zone hell which she chose.

Pedophiles and child murderers get off way too easy and obtw, there is no rehabilitation for such beasts. As far as I'm concerned they are not human.

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but what's the point of punishment if she can't remember it and there is no rehabilitation


I believe the fact she can't remember, and the slow, nightmarish reveal about why she is experiencing this horror, is exactly the point.

It is one of the worst forms of torture imaginable. Every single day she wakes up in a living hell, in fear for her life and safety every minute, until the end when it is revealed she is being punished and tortured publicly for the brutal crimes she committed. She learns she is a despicable criminal and did something unspeakable, unimaginable to a little girl. She sees the hatred, and probably wonders deep down, "did I really do this? Is this what I deserve?"

The fact she can't remember these crimes is part of what makes it so brutal, in my opinion. This episode really disturbed me as I could imagine what it would feel like to live through that scenario and slowly begin to realize these people hate you and think you are a monster, and wonder if you really are. I think the fact it repeats daily is merely for the public's benefit, and the peace of mind knowing she is being endlessly tormented for her crimes. To Victoria this probably makes no difference since it will only ever feel like one nightmarish day for her as her memory is wiped at the end of each session.

Or, maybe this is more about how society views punishment and this form of punishment satisfies their anger.


I think this is probably the biggest underlying statement the writers were trying to make in that episode.

White Bear examines our society's obsession with retribution and punishment for crimes, rather than a desire to understand what drives people to commit crimes, and focus on rehabilitating these individuals to benefit society as a whole.

Our obsession with punishment is a deeply rooted tradition that goes back thousands of years, despite clear and overwhelming evidence that it does nothing to deter or prevent crime, scare other individuals into not committing crimes, and "correct" behaviour of criminals that enter our criminal justice systems and are punished for their actions.

Look at a big country like America, for example. The United States locks up more of it's citizens per capita than any other country in the entire world (even higher than dictatorial or authoritarian states), and with far longer and severe sentences for crimes than most countries. But does this work? Not even close. The United States also has the highest rate of recidivism in the entire world.

And the U.S. isn't the only country that operates with a similar justice model. We are so blinded with our obsession for punishing criminals that we are unable to see how pointless and unproductive the system is. People enter the churning, revolving door of the justice machine to be punished, only to be spat out the other end to reenter society in a worse state than they were in before, where they are even more likely to commit more crimes.

An example scenario:

A young drug addict enters the system to be punished for theft (to support his habit) and drug possession. He is treated like a dangerous criminal and locked up for years, failing to address the personal and social problems that lead him to commit his crimes in the first place.

In prison, he receives little to no resources and education to kick his addiction. His personal and mental issues are not addressed, nor does he learn the skills he would need to be successful and the world and deal with mental and emotional problems he has encountered in the past that drove him to use drugs and become dependent on them. On top of all this, there is also an abundance of drugs inside prison so this addict probably continues to use during the duration of his punishment.

Despite knowing all this, we release this man when he completes his sentence and we expect him to be magically "cured" and able to reenter his community as a functioning member of society. This man is still a drug addict, and now in an even worse place than he was when he went into prison. His job prospects are severely limited, and the addict almost immediately relapses back into crime (often more severe crime & with greater criminal connections after being in prison) in order to scrape by.

How does this make any sense at all? Of course there are some criminals who really do deserve this kind of punishment, criminals who are so far beyond the scope of rehabilitation, and without whom society is much safer. These men are lost causes and deserve to be punished accordingly. But do the vast majority of criminals entering our prisons fall into this category? I personally don't think so.

It completely baffles me that people are unable to see this "revolving door" that we create and feed. WE as society are the ones who lose out in this scenario, not the criminal we lock up. It is a self-perpetuating cycle that just goes around and around and around, and yet we just can't figure it out.

I don't want to bash other people's political beliefs, but in my opinion, in countries like America this is largely due to the huge amount of conservative, backwards thinkers.. These people's beliefs and values are so deeply rooted in antiquated traditions and archaic ways of thinking and solving problems, to the point where they are just incapable and unwilling to see how our system is broken and does nothing but bite us in the ass over and over again.

If you add money into the mix, and the fact the private prison industry generates billions of dollars for year for the wealthy elite, then the situation for the future of our society looks even more bleak, possibly like the theme-park like business attractions we saw in White Bear. But I will save that rant for a whole other post.

All in all, I thought White Bear was a brilliant, and uncomfortable social and political commentary about our sick obsession with crime and punishment, and the dark places it could eventually lead us.

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This entire post is so on point.

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