Smith is he a bad guy or a good guy? - The Man in the High Castle (2015) Discussion

[–] chrisjdel (2714) 6 years ago

Smith is a complex character, well played by actor Rufus Sewell. Sometimes you find yourself rooting for the guy. Especially when he's trying to protect his family. And this season there seem to be moments when he's recalling what America used to be and wondering how he got to this place. He doesn't look very enthusiastic when they're sitting there and Himmler is gleefully contemplating the demolition of the Statue of Liberty.

But then, he often kills people in cold blood without it seeming to bother him in the least. In his last scene this season he shot Juliana rather than let her jump away into a parallel world (which she did anyway). His wife ended up leaving him and taking the kids, because he'd implied that he wouldn't lift a finger to protect their daughter if she was found to be carrying the same genetic defect as her brother - even if she wasn't going to contract the condition herself, her children might inherit it, so Reich law requires her extermination. For the wife this was that one compromise too far.

So is Smith a good guy or a bad guy? That seems to change from one moment to the next.

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[–] Mister Babadook (2684) 6 years ago

Yeah i gotta say Smith is by far my favorite character and my main interest in the show at this point. He's such a wonderful and as you said complex character, he's fascinating to watch. Rufus can make you despise him one moment then get you to feel for him the next, its an amazing performance and i don't see how the guy hasn't got an emmy yet.

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[–] jam920 (24) 6 years ago

Smith is an interesting character for sure and agree Rufus Sewell does a great job. I still see him pretty much as a bad guy though. We don't know if he turned his back on his former country as a Lt. in the US Army but perhaps being an opportunist. He seems to be definitely involved in the holocaust as it continued in North America. He has tortured and killed many doing his duty for the Reich, even killing Heydrich was also doing his duty for the Reich not because of who Heydrich was. He killed Dr.Adler and Rockwell to protect himself and his family.

He does care about his family and those that are loyal to him, but that really doesn't negate what he has done to others. I think he is regreting his life's path, with his reaction to Himmler's plans and when he see his alternate world self with his son. The alternate world Smith lives in a world where he did not have to face same decisions.

I think Kito might be a more conflicted character then Smith.

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[–] Jes' Sayin' (6349) 6 years ago

He's an anti-hero, a deeply flawed and essentially bad guy you love to watch and secretly like anyway. Much like Don Draper.

The question is whether he can redeem himself or will come to a tragic end? Which would you prefer?

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[–] Mister Babadook (2684) 6 years ago

I'd love to see him redeem himself, kill Himmler and help take down the Reich.

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[–] Jes' Sayin' (6349) 6 years ago

Yes, would be nice.

After seeing just the first three episodes of the third season, seems like he is currently most interested in [spoiler]getting another version of his son from another universe, which is an interesting ethical question: would it be like stealing from yourself? [/spoiler]

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[–] chrisjdel (2714) 6 years ago

I think that's why he looked so bummed out when his old friend Abe informed him that worlds where he already exists are inaccessible to him. Remember that film of his son also showed another (much happier looking) John Smith. You really have to wonder if Smith is going to try and make sure Himmler doesn't survive his injuries, or failing that start secretly working against him. But will he be fighting for his country's freedom - or hoping that an American born Nazi might be able to grab the throne and make it stick, especially with all the praise and public honors he's received?

And what do you suppose will happen when he catches up to his wife? She doesn't exactly hang out with the resistance so I doubt someone as recognizable as her will be able to get far. That's going to be one awkward reunion. And you know if Himmler does survive, Helen Smith will be living on borrowed time after running off with the kids. Remember he told John to either get his house in order, or it would be taken care of for him?

What I love most about the character of Smith is that you're always wondering what's going through his head. He never fully confides in anyone. Although it's clear the film of an alternate America that never fell, and seeing his son alive and well there, has really gotten under his skin. We saw from his nightmare that he presided over the continuation of the holocaust in North America. He may or may not have killed Jews with his own hands, but he sat and watched while men under his command shot a woman and bashed a little girl's skull in against the side of a building. And I'm sure that was only one incident among many. We know that Smith is guilty of the worst crimes imaginable - one of the first times we saw him in season 1, he casually ordered a prisoner beaten to death - and yet at times the character seems almost likeable.

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[–] jam920 (24) 6 years ago

That is the thing about human nature, even the most evil people can be personable and likable. Dictators don't rise to power if they don't have some kind of charisma.

In the first season Wegner talks about the the terrible thing he and John Smith did. Smith seems to have little regret but now with the loss of his son the murders he was involve in might resonate more. So many Nazis, (or others over history) were able to commit such terrible atrocities but were still able to be fathers and husbands etc. Did the events and decision they made turn them evil or were they that way to begin with.

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[–] eYeDEF (5050) 6 years ago

I think it's pretty clear from everything we know now that for the overwhelming majority of the Nazi collaborators in WW2 that participated in the holocaust, they did so having bought 100% into the Reich propaganda. They weren't born evil, but had become convinced that what they were engaging in was an honor and civic duty. Society had ritualized and normalized the extermination of Jews and other "undesirables" in concentration camps to the point that those that participated believed in what they were doing.

That's what I find interesting about John Smith. I don't get the sense that he's irrevocably brainwashed by Nazi propaganda. He does appear to be engaged in what he does with both eyes open, but I don't get the sense that he's irredeemably evil.

I found EP8 interesting because we're forced to entertain two possible instances of what may have happened if Smith were truly a "monster". First, when the shrink divulges to Smith what had occurred in therapy with his wife, while clearly cowering at the rank and power of Smith as America's highest ranking Nazi and fearing possible retribution. The second when he confronted his wife with the "betrayal" of her affections.

In both instances he behaved as a normal, mature adult would, even though he held the power to behave however he wanted to and very likely get away with it. I saw this as an almost heavy handed attempt by the writers to spell out that Smith was no monster, because those scenes are so at odds with how we would expect him to behave if he were.

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[–] jam920 (24) 6 years ago

I agree with you that the majority of the Nazis did what they did because they bought into the belief system of Hitler and national socialism. Same with Stalin, he was not a deviation but a true believer of communism and did what he did for that cause.

That being said, their motivations of course don't excuse their actions. Smith's involvement in the holocaust will make it hard for his character to be redeemable. Also one has to wonder why he went from the US Army to the SS? Not the army, but the SS, for full party members true believers, especially someone at his rank. That does not mean at some point he might have regret, but for a time at the very least he had to be a die hard believer of Hitler and the National Socialist party.

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[–] eYeDEF (5050) 6 years ago

Yes I agree, he might be irredeemable. What I had meant when I said I don't get the impression he's irredeemably evil is that he's not a psychopath. He's clearly capable of empathy that we've seen at least towards his own family members. He has the capacity for goodness even if he might be beyond redemption. Whatever evil acts he's personally engaged in hasn't warped him to the point of no return.

I think Smith's story arc is clearly moving us towards the direction of how he comes to break with the Reich. He's being set up on a redemption arc even if it might be beyond his reach. He's in position to affect the impact and outcome of the Nazi regime.

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[–] jam920 (24) 6 years ago

I think you are right when it comes to the story arc. Who knows what they have in mind with Smith. He and Kito are both interesting because you see them on the wrong side of things but as you said still show empathy. For television characters it makes the plot more interesting.

I know they only have so many episodes per seasons to tell their story, but it would be interesting to see what happen in the years from the war up to a little before the series began.

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[–] chrisjdel (2714) 6 years ago

Which is worse: to go along with something evil because you're honestly convinced you're in the right, or to go along with it because you've chosen to put self interest ahead of all other considerations - better them than you, right? Where many of Smith's former buddies in the US military are either dead or keeping their heads down in the NZ he's living large in the halls of power, fully embracing the New Order even though he sees it for what it is (unlike his own children as Juliana pointed out to him).

So is Smith more, or less, evil than a man like Heydrich who believed in what he was doing without reservation? You could make a case for either I think. The fact that Smith keeps his own internal thoughts so close to his vest, not confiding 100% in anyone including his wife, means you can never be sure what he's planning or may suddenly do when an opening presents itself.

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[–] eYeDEF (5050) 6 years ago

They're both egregious, but in my opinion I'd place being irrevocably brainwashed being somewhat worse since it precludes any possibility for any measure of redemption, irrespective of how meager that measure might stack up when compared to the evils one might have committed.

But I can also see why some would think the opposite. YMMV.

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[–] jam920 (24) 6 years ago

I guess one could excuse the true believer a little more over the opportunist. However, that would only be if the person had no real belief system going in to counter act what they were being told. This would probably only really apply to the young, especially those growing up in Germany post World War 1 and than the world wide depression. This is not to excuse their actions, only it is easier to understand how they could be manipulated. The National Socialists were part of a great class struggle going on and some attached to it on those grounds.

A little off topic, and my memory is a little hazy but I recall that Smith family suffered greatly in the depression and kind of implied it was part of the reason he embraced National Socialism. In this alternate reality maybe a German invasion of the US was also met or joined with a growing support in National Socialism in what was the US?

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[–] eYeDEF (5050) 6 years ago

Yes, I can see why some might see how the lack of agency of the truly brainwashed would make those deliberately choosing self interest with both eyes open to be significantly worse.

I wouldn't disagree, except it's that very agency that makes the latter more culpable for their crimes also capable of redemption that the brainwashed lack. So I guess for me it would ultimately come down to whether the offender is still alive or deceased.

If they're deceased and no longer capable of any measure of redemption, then the consciously deliberate would have to be deemed worse. If alive and still hold the ability to affect some measure of redemption I'd say the opposite.

I also think there are varying degrees that true believers hold some measure of culpability for their beliefs, but how much culpability might be impossible to determine as it may vary between individuals.

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[–] jam920 (24) 6 years ago

Actually many members of the Nazi party who were devoted to Hitler and National Socialism later disavowed this when they saw how mistaken they were. Of course many never did, many in East Germany joined with the communist. So yes there is many ways it could go.

Herman Goering among the highest echelon would be closest to this. He would have hitched his wagon to whoever he thought could bring him wealth and power. His second wife who had been an actress and had many friends and colleagues who were Jewish had her husband help them. This does not excuse all the horrible things Goering did but his motivation was to himself and his family. When he surrendered to the Americans he even told his wife, "not a bad 12 year run". Unlike Goebbels who killed himself and his family because they could not imagine living in a world without national socialism. In contrast, Goering actually offered to Eisenhower his services to govern over post war Germany.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

Smith is a monster, but he loves his wife and family. He's not a Nazi true believer, but he was a collaborator and did horrible things to advance his own career. Not that complicated at all.

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[–] keybored (2660) 6 years ago

The problem is, that in every single world where his son exists and has the same condition, he will be exterminated by the Nazis when they invade successfully.

Smith has figured this out already and it will be the reason he eventually turns.

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[–] kenburke (2369) 6 years ago

He's a bad guy (like Kido) but still interesting.

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[–] TylerAArse (2871) 6 years ago

He's a monster. A bad guy. A truly conniving dick that does anything he can to help himself. I haven't seen Season 3 yet, so I don't know if it's been revealed as to why he joined the Reich. I would guess it's a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality.

Instead of abiding by the laws of the oppressive and racist regime he joined, he decided to murder his doctor/friend to hide his truth? Naw, he sucks. He's an extremely smart and clever sob, but I hope he gets his.

I do enjoy Rufus Sewell in the role. He's cool as hell.

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[–] Keelai (34858) 6 years ago

Smith is a bad guy. Everything he has done is for his own survival. He loves his family, but he acts as if he were willing to sacrifice his older daughter if it means maintaining his present position. What agreements and actions did he make in order for the Nazis to trust and promote a former American military officer? Why didn't he try to join the resistance and fight instead of joining the Nazis? Evil people can love and protect their own families, but they're still evil.

Smith's wife sees the hypocrisy and wants her husband to change some of the policy which Smith refuses to do. Smith is also a coward and selfish.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

He's not a bad guy or a good guy, he's a realistic guy. Well, he is a bad guy for joining the Nazi occupiers, but it's what most people would do if they wanted to survive and prosper. We all think we would be stronger and resist, but most people would do what he did and try to fit in. He's not a Nazi true believer, and he's looking out for his family. He's horrified by the worst people in his new government and their plans, and wants to save the world from their schemes, even if that world is already a pretty bad place thanks to him and others like him.

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[–] whatwazdat (414) 5 years ago

I think the writers want you to think that he's struggling morally with all his decisions, but the way they ended the show provided an argument that he was really rotten. So upon news that he died, his right-hand man makes a phone call to call everything off. That's it. LOL! All throughout the show we're lead to believe that there are forces in the Reich constantly watching him. So he cannot act suspicious, cannot show empathy to the inferior races, etc. Hence, the struggle and burden on his face with every screen time he gets. His right hand man calls off the air strike with a snap of a finger, and this was foretold a few episodes back when he told Smith that he didn't have to go to Berlin, that they have enough nukes to create a stalemate and run their own country. So you know when this second in command called off the air strike at the end, that that's what he has in mind. How come this guy is willing to do it, and John Smith won't? He's really rotten when it comes down to it.

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