I saw this movie after hearing all the negative reviews. It was probably why I waited so long to see it. But once I did, I was enthralled by it. People said it was boring, and though I was expecting to be bored, I wasn't. Although I tend to be pretty dismissive of most films, for their lack of ambition and eagerness to please, I loved this film for never trying too hard to be pleasing or to provide easy answers and explanations. It was engaging, I think, for being so obscured and enigmatic.
It plays out like a Greek tragedy, with the specter of divine retribution haunting us and punishing those who use revenge as a justification for any lapse in humanity. So many films about revenge get a pass on all the gore and violence although all they do is present justification for the carnage. This film seeks no justification for it. The carnage is not entertaining and it's not cathartic. It's simply violence. It's the harshness of life in all the tawdry glare and impassivity. Terrible things happen and either we let them happen or we seek them out.
Perhaps this film was too ambitious for its own good, but I love it. The violence is meant to be disturbing and it's meant to provoke thought. When there's too much happening on screen and when plot lines get too contrived, it's easy to turn off our thoughts. But I had to think about this film because it refused to lend itself to easy, disposable consumption.
This is one of those rare films that isn't afraid to be hated, and perhaps relishes our discomfort. But I'm relieved to find a film that doesn't delight in it's own nastiness and viciousness but, rather, almost feels ashamed of it. It's beautiful to look at, yet so unutterably hideous.
I wonder if people didn't like the film because it places humanity up to such a harsh light and we seem to fall so short. It's not exactly inspiring. But there's an undeniable truth to it that makes other more plot-driven sideshows feel like even more of a waste of time. This film isn't trying to score easy points with special effects, throwaway humor and plot contrivances.
This film will get more credit one day, but we live in an age of many distractions and minimal patience. The only reason people prefer the violence of Tarantino films is because Tarantino makes violence fun. But why can't we show it up as something ugly without people getting upset?
the person i watched it with, hated it with quite a bit of passion. i kept pointing out how beautiful it is and he didn't think that was enough.
but i found it weirdly disturbing and haunting. and i liked it quite a bit.
what i think is happening is that it's too abstract a film. it sort of signposts its abstractness and it's all very evident and then people complain that it's too formal.
i loved how formal it is, winding refn really plays with the anticipation and i watched in morbid fascination.
also, i think there is a sense that he loves emasculating someone as beatiful as gosling, and i really think that is part of why i find it so fascinating. he seems to seek out an image of masculinty and then destroys it with glee. to me that is pretty cool.
also, i think there is a sense that he loves emasculating someone as beatiful as gosling, and i really think that is part of why i find it so fascinating. he seems to seek out an image of masculinty and then destroys it with glee. to me that is pretty cool.
Awesome observation! I never thought of that.
And you will know my name is The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee! reply share
Are you suggesting that the mass audience does not appreciate slow-burn arthouse allegories which explore themes of spirituality with elaborate characterizations and subtle cinematic storytelling, told primarily through complex symbolism?
It probably has something to do with the fact that nothing in this film is underlined or spoon-fed to the audience, and that Refn's artistic vision is challenging and provocative instead of pandering. Or that the movie was marketed as a simple action film but is, in fact, the opposite.
This is a film which, frankly, is not easily digestible. It has something significant and nontrivial to say, and is often uncomfortable. Like the Greek tragedies you mentioned, it actually explores humanity's place in the universe in a thoughtful and uncompromising way. I think in a few years, Only God Forgives will be widely recognized as the masterpiece it is.
And you will know my name is The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!
see, it weaves a strange magical web... i don't know how thoughtful it is, i really couldn't tell. i don't normally find this hard but here i do.
part of me, i think, is really enthralled by the cinematopgraphy and the formality of it all. part of me wants to just understand why the hell people seem to move through jelly in this film. it's such wonderful mix of brutal and wordless but it's somehow never ... uncicvilised. or it is or it isn't.
terribly vexing film.
i really wish i could inflict it on more people but it's just too outré in a way, too assured of itself. it almost doesn't need viewers, that's how aloof it is.
I see what you're saying and I think you're on the money to characterize the film as "aloof". But I find that aesthetic to be necessary given the soul-crushing content of the film. Refn presents such a stark vision, but balances that perfectly with a beautiful if disinterested Zen presentation. His camera never seems to recoil or waver, it just observes the sordid realities of these characters with a remarkable serenity. The cold and nearly impenetrable formal structure of the film is a crucible containing molten contents.
I like the hyper abstract and almost clinical quality of the film; the way it seems to play with its concepts mathematically; very formal--anything remotely sentimental or reassuringly human has been carefully deleted from this world.
It's arresting because the film is handling such dark subject matter, but the atmosphere is so calm and restrained. Beautiful contrast, in my opinion. But certainly comparable to the elemental and abstract Greek tragedies which recounted the harshest truths of the human condition without flinching. All great art I think represents the universe in microcosm, and this film seems to share that aspiration.
And you will know my name is The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!
i was wondering about thinking of rothko and malevich and how they painted squares and how that isn't quite the same thing as OGF
it's wonderful to be able to discuss it in those terms. i think the complaints that people are making are about expectations. it's rubbish if you expect some kind of action or psychology, i understand that.
and i like how you characterise it. it is really zen in how you are shown things.
do you understand ... you know winding refn keeps going on about fists and how they are sexual and then the open hand is submission. this is all very nice but i don't quite understand how this means that the act of forgiveness lies in cutting them off (regardless of whether that actually happens or not)... doesn't oedipus blind himself?
but then he still runs into the prophecy and so on. i'm not sure i know the story of oedipus very well. but it's like winding refn conflates the two ideas of emasculation and forgiveness. i reckon it depends on how you see the ending but there are interpretations that specifically look at the hands and how he killed his father with his hands etc.
The motif of hands running throughout the film represents the anxiety of action. Hands are capable of producing both good and evil. Active figures like Chang and Crystal use their hands to impose their will without hesitation. Julian, by contrast, languishes in indecision. For him, action poses the terrible burden of decision. Because he has no core principles, no meaningful attachment to the cosmos, he seeks to destroy himself. This is a paradox. Julian's sole active wish is to destroy his capacity for action.
Hands symbolize the capacity for action, both good and evil. For Julian, his hands confront him with the reality of his agency. His hands have murdered, but they could also caress. He is incapable of recognizing the distinction. Action is painful for Julian because he does not understand the difference, nor is he strong enough to enact his will. Julian's believes that severing his hands will relieve him of the burden of action. That is true. But this act will also sever his connection to the world. Basically, Julian wants to become nothing. All of this is pretty damning, because I think Refn is using Julian as a symbol for modern human society.
Returning to the subject of this thread, the hostile reaction to this movie, I believe, illustrates a larger problem. The extent of much of the criticism is sophisticated, but empty. To criticize a movie, for most members of the audience, is to challenge the logic of its operation. If it doesn't make sense at an immediate level, it can be dismissed. We can laugh at the unbelievability of Julian not landing a single blow against Chang without even trying to understand the deeper meaning of this. Such a mode of criticism only succeeds in distancing the uncomfortable truth which is being communicated. Our modern, sophisticated society is losing its spirituality. Because of this, few can recognize the spiritual dimension which is essential to art. The capacity to engage or appreciate a work of art is being lost. I find it disturbing that so many seem to believe the summation of the aesthetic experience is liking or disliking the art object. Art transcends these categories. The true significance of art is pondering why these experiences are generated. Is the message true? A true work of art, I maintain, captures and expresses something true; freezes it for contemplation within a frame, and stands aloof to human judgment.
Only God Forgives is similar to a certain type of film which I find to be aesthetically masterful, indeed beautiful, but which nevertheless reveal to us the darkest truths of the human soul with great lucidity. Other films similar in kind are A Clockwork Orange and Funny Games. To experience these films is to confront human mortality and the capacity for violence which hides beneath a civilized veneer with an unblinking eye. These films offer an unpleasant experience, but one which is true and needs to be integrated. The universe is hostile to human vanity. Whatever moral values we promote, the cosmos is indifferent. To put a frame around human mortality makes mortality bearable. Death becomes a subject of sober contemplation at a distance and, in a small way, we can overcome (or at least recognize) our limitations.
It is an easy reaction to dismiss these films--this prevents us from confronting uncomfortable truths. But I'm afraid that by rejecting these films, we are censoring our worldview and sentimentalizing our view of humanity.
And you will know my name is The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!
i like very much what you have to say. i'm sorry if i haven't got much to contribute to it tho.
i agree that we tend to reduce criticism to 'like' or 'dislike'. what i find is that it's also reduced to, can i immediately identify with a character's choices, i.e. is that my moral horizon etc it all becomes very weird.
i have found that i cannot deal with the way i feel manipulated by a lot of films. they suggest pretty forcefully how i'm supposed to feel about certain things and how i'm supposed to judge them. a lot of the time that leaves me no emotional space and it's when i watch films like the above that i don't feel so very subjected to it, i reckon that's why i said, it almost doesn't need an audience. it feels withdrawn from emotional content.
The reason this film was disliked so much is that current USA cinema is obsessed with a vicarious experience of being a bad-ass. From comic book characters with superpowers to criminals who violently break all the rules, to the Wolf of Wall St, it's all about getting another fix of the childish fantasy of being in invincible power. Whether it's Scorcese or Michael Bay, if it is in any way in the "action movie" genre, people including critics MUST have their bad-ass fix satiated.
This film masterfully, beautifully, mercilessly eviscerates the American bad-ass fantasy. American exceptionalism and the image of the American tough-guy are literally beaten to a pulp by a serene karaoke-loving poet. That is why so many people hated it, and that is one of the reasons it is a great film.
I think if this film had come out in the 70's golden age of cinema it would have been hailed as a masterpiece.
It felt a big step down from Drive to me, that's why I didn't really enjoy it. Drive was also a slow burn but at least I felt invested in the main character. This movie to me.... was just pretty images, something I already know Refn can do. But you see he didn't write Drive...which is why he probably had a much easier time focusing on the directing of Drive. In this...things obviously get muddled and focus seems lost on what kind of movie this is exactly. I was bored and I didn't want to be by this film. I wished I could recommend it but I just couldn't. Had this come out before Drive...perhaps I'd just overlook this film all together. I'll still be on the lookout for Refn's films but I'm hoping he sticks to more basic, good stories and less about symbolism and arthouse type movies.
This is like had Kubrick filmed The Shining, then went off and filmed Barry Lyndon.
Elaborate characterizations? Julian is genuinely a blank slate with nothing to go on or grow from apart from expository dialogue from EVERYONE around him. Crystal and Chang, you can argue, are elaborate characters, but Julian is far from it. He's just not there. His struggles are menial compared to those around him.
"Only God Forgive"'s major problem, which came to light again after seeing "My Life Directed by Nicolas Winding Refn" followed by a screening of "Only God Forgives", is that its smoke and mirrors with nothing really behind said smoke or mirrors. Refn even said a day into filming he didn't know what he was doing or what he was making because he wanted to follow up on "Drive" with something special that would speak to both himself and his audience, which his mentor Jodorowsky clearly advised against catering to the latter. I think Refn should follow his own drum beat, but there comes a point when you're catering to your own whim too much and you lose your audience. I think the movie has gotten a little better, but the subtext just isn't there.
On the contrary, there's a lot to be said about Julian. He's a man who lost the fight against destiny / the inner judge / his own will. He contemplates powerlessly how judgement day draws near to him, with noir / ancient Greek-style resignation. He was caught in a war between his parents, his mother probably asking him to kill his father (she does say at some point that she never asked him anything "since his father"), which was an impossible predicament considering his passivity against his mother, and now he's waiting for retribution, like a mere pawn in the hands of - depending on your interpretation - fate, the gods of noir, the will of others. He's no more a blank slate than the typical noir hero. Well he is a tad more passive than those, almost bordering on an Aki Kaurismaki character, blankness and all, but that's because he's caught himself up in an impossible net of principles - do the right thing AND obey your parents. ...And then you have to add his mother's behavior bordering on incest, plus a brother with the ability to "meet the devil". In this kind of scenario, the only way to go is down - whether you do or you don't struggle against your fate. And Julian stopped struggling a long time ago.
there's a highway that is curling up like smoke above her shoulder
The day that Nic Refn actually bothers to invest his audience and put time into creating an involving plot to complement his otherwise remarkable cinematography will happen the day pigs fly.
That is a silly question. The obvious reason a person does not like a film is that either the film is not of the viewer's taste or is dramatically worse than his expectations going in. You cannot convince or demand another person to like the same thing as you do, just as others cannot do the same to you. There is no right or wrong regarding taste and opinion, unless that act results in hurting someone physically. After all, a movie is only make-believe, and the purpose of making a movie is to make money, hopefully trying to entertain some of the audience. You are taking it way too seriously, LOL. Not everyone thinks and feels the same way in the whole universe.
Man I love you… only stupid people think their intelligence is above average and try to boast about it. **************** This movie is extremely bad on every imaginable level. There is really no plot to phone home about and the characters are shallow to inexistent. I like to allow for stories without likable characters (I don't know why people often insist on agreeable protagonists). The soundtrack is abominably unimaginative and clichéed, camera views and angles a lousy potpourri of stale copying (not even intelligent plagiarism that would count as flattery to the originals). And the Oedipus-topic appears as the dumbest version of it in movie history including the "artistic" penetration scene between son and (attention spoiler - dead) mother. What an aspiring/failing pretentious rubbish. I'm getting to lazy to point out some would-be-references to south asian filmmaking with a dash of Lynch and a whisp of Tarantino (and many more badly seasoned ingredients), nothing would do the "forefathers" any justice. A very high fall from the average works "Fear X" and "Drive" by Winding Refn.
But I had to think about this film because it refused to lend itself to easy, disposable consumption.
This is one of the main reasons why it gets the hate.
In our disposable, Drive-thru ignorance of modern day life, many people want everything spoon-fed. They don't want to think, they just want to be given a big budget explosion fest with a nicely tied-up ending, which they can vaguely "watch" as they fvck around with their Iphones.
I don't particularly like sculpture for instance, so I don't go to see sculpture exhibitions, standing there playing on my Iphone saying "this is sheet".
So why do people who obviously have no interest in cinema insist on paying good money to do exactly that?
"I'm leaving, i've assessed the situation, and i'm going".
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Not sorry to disappoint, but I actually WANTED to see this film. I'm a bit of a Refn fan, but I hate how pretentious he is with his films. The trailers for this film really reached out and grabbed me, and I loved the title.
I thought this was going to be a neo-noir, sort of exotic revenge-thriller, sort of on the line of a Gareth Evans meets Brian De Palma film. But I was sorely disappointed to find that it was a disjointed film that didn't entirely know what it wanted to see, but was intent on trying to say it through the most meandering means possible.
I have not seen all of this movie yet because I fell asleep, I plan on finishing it tonight. But I personally dislike it so far for all the long lingering shots on ryan goslings stupid moody face. The film is beautiful in places but the camera lingers too long on some pretty uninteresting scenes. In a way it reminded me of checking my instagram and rolling my eyes at somebodies idea of an oh so deep and meaningful arty snap. On the upside the cop seemed like a cool character. I'll give it another go tonight and perhaps I will have more patience for it.