MovieChat Forums > Haywire (2012) Discussion > Let's settle this once for all (male vs ...

Let's settle this once for all (male vs female fighting)

posted 13 years ago by battdvision
181 replies | jump to latest

For her weight class, Gina does great and is a pro MMA fighter, unfortunately I believe people seeing this movie will then say, "It is plausible that she could take out double digits of highly trained military men."

Well, Gina got crushed by Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos - 145 pound weight, in MMA. It was not even a contest. Cyborg is at the top and end of her game for female competition in the MMA, taking out the number 2 featherweight in the world, Hiroko Yamanaka, in just 16 seconds.

This has caused a stir that maybe, just possibly, she could compete with men (in her weight class), with former lightweight champion K.J. Noons saying, "I believe (male vs. female fights) wouldn't be that competitive, but every now and then there is a special athletic woman that can compete with men in fighting" going on to say that she ("Cyborg") could possibly compete in her weight class with men, though the MMA sanction would be highly against it for safety reasons.

There we have it, actual MMA discussion and evidence by professionals in this arena: the person who destroyed Gina is not even allowed to compete against males in her own weight class, let alone heavyweight, for safety reasons.

But here, we have Gina destroying not one or two inexperienced men, but dozens of highly trained men well outside of her weight class, all highly athletic - sometimes I like the hero or heroine to obey physics in movies for a sense of realism...

While this movie may have beautiful choreography, I believe it does the fighting world a disservice to blatantly promote unrealistic odds in a realistic fashion, somehow promoting an ideology that the modern man is a demasculated, self serving sexist pig that can never compete or stand a chance with a goddess.

[–] lovax 13 years ago

I haven't seen this yet, so I'm only guessing somewhere in the movie she kicks like 10 guys asses at once. Well I don't think anyone (man or woman) can defeat a bunch of well trained men at the same time. In a lot of action movies (especially the 80s) you see a group of 10 - 20 guys standing around the "hero" and just watching while he beats the crap outta one or two guys. It's like they're taking turns to get their ass kicked.

Now having said that, I do believe someone like Gina or Santos could beat the crap out of your ordinary average "untrained" guy.

I was debating someone about this before, but the topic was removed. Basically he was saying "No woman can beat any man in a fight." I finally just gave up on the guy, cuz no matter what video evidence or news article I presented, he would make excuses. I showed a video of a girl beating a boy in a high school wrestling match (120-140 lbs category I think it was), and he was giving me all these reasons why it "didn't count". He said "If it was a real fight the guy would punch her." My response was "If punches were allowed then she would punch him (she was trained in kick boxing, BJJ, and wrestling). His response to that was "Womens bones are brittle, blah blah blah...." Of course if the woman was much bigger than the guy that didn't count either, according to him.

Anyway, I still believe men are stronger and better fighters, but I also believe there are women who have the skill to defeat your average guy.

[–] frelunch 13 years ago

Regarding the boy vs girl fight, if it's the one I'm thinking of the kid had barely hit puberty so at that age I would agree boys don't have much of an advantage over women. Obviously things change as we hit maturity in our early to mid 20's.

[–] SDsZ28 13 years ago

Good lord. Nobody watches movies like this for the realism. I just kinda hope Carano is a decent actress, because she's a lot more believable in roles like this than Angelina Jolie or Milla Jovovich, and attractive too.

If Gina Carano becomes the new "unrealistic female action movie protagonist", at least it will be an improvement.

[–] battdvision 13 years ago

I agree with those statements. She definitely is a real trained fighter and knows physics and balance much more than conventional 90 pound female celebrities turned kick-butt stars.

[–] fougreg1307 13 years ago

I wonder why there are no such posts on movies with Jet Li, Jovovich, Bruce Lee, Tony Jaa, Seagal, Van Damme etc ...

Jet Li - not a fighter, still beats giants in his movies
Jovovich - a model ?
Bruce Lee - a great fighter but according to the poster he'd be too skinny and doesn't weight enough
Seagal - with all the rumors around who knows if he ever had a real fight
Van Damme - fights a giant in almost all of his movies
Tony Jaa - same as Jet Li

And I only took example of stars of action movies I like ...

The only problem here seems that Carano is a woman and a MMA fighter so the poster relates to the MMA sport and not the caracter in the movie ?

[–] frelunch 13 years ago

People seem to be critiquing the typical heroines in film, but I would just remind people alot of those roles has the female as some sort of science experiment to increase her strength,stamina,speed, and relfexes. So they do sometimes offer explanations for star's actions. Whether they are believable or not is up to the viewer and often times physics, but they aren't all the same in that regard.

[–] EthanCarterIII24 13 years ago

Dude I know a guy who
would get beat up by
his younger sister.
There was size and weight
differences sure but she still
destroyed him. Started happening in
the junior high days they'd argue and
plain and simple she kicked his ass.
He told me not to tell anyone. I didn't.
After about 20 times folks began to talk.
Marks and bruises. Their parents began asking.
By the end of the junior high first year the
parents caught the little sis beating up her
big bro. Cat was out of the bag.
She told one friend and more and more
people found out about it.
That summer during a cook-out they
started bickering again and she beat the
crap out of him infront of everybody there.
This happened at the beach a month after that.
The guy admitted to me he was afraid of her.

As for Gina Carano she could destroy me. Easily.

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[–] !!!deleted!!! (4524359) 13 years ago

Well men are stronger than women in general. There is a scientific reason for this. We 're different biologically speaking.
Here I'll quote something
"The physical differences between men and women provide functional advantages and have survival value. Men usually have greater upper body strength, build muscle easily, have thicker skin, bruise less easily and have a lower threshold of awareness of injuries to their extremities. Men are essentially built for physical confrontation and the use of force. Their joints are well suited for throwing objects. A man’s skull is almost always thicker and stronger than a women’s"

A man is capable of building more muscle mass than a woman relative to their size. There is no known and reliable method of increasing the amount of muscle fibres you have. Men are born with alot more muscle fibres than women in general. When we train we expand the ones we already have.

There is nothing sexist about stating that an athletic man highly trained in combat will be stronger and most likely almost always win in a direct confrontation against a highly trained woman because the difference in strength will be quite staggering, it would take superior technique or luck for the woman to win (unless she uses a weapon of course).

There is nothing that would make a woman technically inferior to a man when it comes to hand to hand combat then difference is in the strength and strength while not being everything is still very important.

There is also the fact that men are in general taller thus have better reach.

There is no doubt though that a highly trained woman could kick most guys asses. I wouldn't stand a chance against her in a fight despite being in good shape since she has alot more training and even if I happend to be equal to her in strength she would destroy me in mere seconds with superior technique and speed.

edit: However I'd like to add I have no problem with some girl power in a movie, you're supposed to suspend disbelief in an action movie.

[–] battdvision 13 years ago

Fair enough, what I appreciate about your response is the thinking and comparisons from different viewpoints you use, it is much better than throwing terms such as "sexist!" around or resorting to generalities.

I do suspend belief in many movies, I guess I sense a political liberal statement from this movie to make men and women the same and to portray most men as weak.

What also got me was the downplaying of military and police men as well. And for those who have posted about other movies with male actors, I ALWAYS get upset if the hero mows down law enforcement and especially military, too easily.

WHY? Because they ALL have TRAINING and not just a little at that!

I would venture to say, if you are in law enforcement and especially the military, you are training to STAY ALIVE, not fight in a little octagon.

People need to understand that and possibly give a little more credence to our men in the armed forces and law enforcement who serve and protect us!

[–] Alpha-Centuri 13 years ago

I'll say this. I can more easily suspend my disbelief watching Carano fight guys then I can with the waif-fu experts Maggie Q, Grace Park, Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron and so on.

And in the first 5 minutes of the movie, you can see Channing Tatum beating the *beep* out of her. She doesn't start to win until a guy interferes which gives her the upperhand to pistol whip him. More Realistic I'd say. Carrano in real life could "sneak" your average man. And as her character was a well-trained marine, CIA operative, and other stuff, I think she could "sneak" a few pros if they aren't as well trained as her.

[–] CheadleBroc 13 years ago

i still am unsure what this film has anything to do with MMA.

oh yeah, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MMA.

and even if it did, is it a biopic? Is it a documentary? Nope.... IT'S FICTION!!!

WHAT A FREAKIN CONCEPT!!

[–] m-slovak79 13 years ago

Well, Gina got crushed by Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos - 145 pound weight, in MMA. It was not even a contest. Cyborg is at the top and end of her game for female competition in the MMA, taking out the number 2 featherweight in the world, Hiroko Yamanaka, in just 16 seconds.

that's invalid now that she (Cyborg) was proven to be on steroids in recent articles online and is suspended from the league for 1 year.

so while Gina is officially 7 wins and 1 loss. she's pretty much undefeated now in my mind as steroids are just flat out cheating. period.

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My Vote History ... http://imdb.to/rb1gYH
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[–] laxxdevil99 13 years ago

I agree with the whole sense of how ridiculous it is that she beats all these special forces guys with ease, but i think one on one it may be possible using Gina as an exception.

What some may not realize is Gina is not a small girl... She fights at 145 but has a VERY difficult time making weight. She probably walks around at 170 or maybe a bit more. And shes quite athletic for a big girl.

Although I'm saying this, I do think her chances of beating a man with training (but obviously not as much as her) are slim to none, but possible. If they are close to equal weights and Gina isnt fighting at her 145 weight then i think it can be done. Obviously beating two or more guys at a time is just non sense.

Look at this video for instance. Someone showed me it and said this girl is notorious for beating guys. They appear close to equal weights and she man handles him. So just put a bigger guy with a bigger Gina.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V6AVUmGt8E[url]

Fu'kin MamaLuke

[–] impaler69 13 years ago

There we have it, actual MMA discussion and evidence by professionals in this arena: the person who destroyed Gina is not even allowed to compete against males in her own weight class, let alone heavyweight, for safety reasons.

I think there's a lot more to it than that. There are issues with whether men would hold back if they were fighting a woman. There are issues with the humiliation of fighters getting their asses kicked by a girl. Then there are issues with whether people want to watch a man beat a woman into a bloody pulp. I'm sure that on a slow day there would be more than one news outfit giving their commentary on a video showing a man pulling the good old ground and pound against a female opponent--not an exciting prospect for a sport that's trying to get over some PR hurdles.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people.

[–] EthanCarterIII24 13 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V6AVUmGt8E

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[–] mpfactory_server 13 years ago

guys, there are some kind of mixed mma matches, but its just like a submission match, do u know what i mean? look for some videos, i've seen women taking on guys (same weight of course), and those are real matches, i mean its not as real as a typical fight with punches, its only submission (wrestling and submission), but those fights are legit, with referee, and is not rigged of course.

[–] jason-lovell 13 years ago

To the OP. You realise that Santos tested positive for steroids right?

[–] battdvision 13 years ago

Yes and I respect Gina WAAY more than Santos. You do also realize that this further makes my point valid: women caught with steroids or any type of testosterone enhancement are ELIMINATED from fighting, sports, Olympics, ect.

The question must be asked, WHY?

The answer is: unfair strength, stamina advantage.

So, to all those who argue that strength doesn't matter in martial arts, why is this so controversial then? Why should she get her titled revoked?

For those who argue that there is no difference between male and female if technique is similar, then why disqualify a female for trying to add similar chemicals (testosterone and steroids) that a man has naturally??!

And yes, chemically a man has chemicals similar to what Santos took that got her eliminated.

[–] edward2332 13 years ago

Gina Carano would work anyone on these message boards, and not break a sweat. As for trained military men, I believe she would fare better, in real life, than the following people:

Sylvester Stallone
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Matt Damon
Tom Cruise
Sean Connery (and another other Bond, for that matter)
Bruce Willis
...

Fact #1
IT'S A FREAKIN MOVIE!!!

Fact #2
Size matters, but skill matters more (don't forget Royce Gracie taking on guys twice his size early in UFC)

Fact #3
Gina is a trained FIGHTER...all other actors are trained...ACTORS!

Fact #4
Once again...IT'S A FREAKIN MOVIE!!!

[–] battdvision 13 years ago

Wow, you know how to share your opinion. That's great, good for you. Unfortunately, some of us have actually discussed fighting and the physical aspects that go into fighting:

weight
strength
endurance
skill
reach
luck (catching someone - it has happened to the best)
diversity of training

Gina has skill on her side. 9 years of training. That is probably more than all of us on the board.

The reality is, you cannot judge people or outcomes of a fight merely on skill, nor can you judge the skill level of men in special opps, military or police work. Many are trained more than you let on to give them credit for.

If we were talking about the best classical guitarists in the world, skill would be literately 100% of the equation.

But with fighting, you are throwing people around, punching, kicking, (even some biting goes on, we know who you are Tyson...) - it is very physical. So where skill can certainly help someone and bridge the gap where they lack in strength and Royce showed us that (except against Matt Houghes where he didn't stand a chance and Matt's size and strength overwhelmed him on the ground), you have to factor in the other aspects.

This is where things get convoluted. Does skill determine 90% of the fight? 75% and the rest, what? Muscle? Endurance? For boxing, reach and endurance is more beneficial there pure strength.

For wrestling MMA style, strength helps a lot because you can lift the other person up even in a lock and smash them down.

The more open and mixed the rules are to the fight, the LESS beneficial pure skill becomes. Look at it this way: take the best MMA middle weight champion, pit him against a world class SKILLED boxer with way more experience in the same weight class and make them ONLY BOX.

The boxer would probably win because his skill in that ONE specific area.

Now take the same people and open it to no holds bar MMA match, and the MMA man is favored not because of raw skill or fight experience but because of the diversity of skill AND his strengths. For instance, his ground game would really hurt the boxer since what boxer trains for a ground game?

Now take a male trained in overall fighting but not with the skill of Gina, but with a stand up and ground game and factor in: his greater strength, endurance and upper body striking power - based off the chemical called testosterone, and she would have a hard time.

Now put her against similar training (which is not hard, many people I know have more than 9 years of experience) and her odds of winning decrease.

Yes, the movie, whatever, we suspend belief. Real life, cmon, not so much.

[–] Dukeleto99 13 years ago

I just watched the movie so I wanted to put in my 2 cents. Without giving away major spoilers, I can say that the fights are never SUPER unrealistic. At most, she takes on two guys at one time and that was only once.

The fights are as follows:

Fight vs. Channing Tatum:
Tatum's character is trained. He absolutely destroys her in a barrage but an onlooker bashes him over the head and she is able to get the upper hand. She doesn't really "win" as she is simply able to get away. She sustains a gunshot graze.

Fight vs. Random Thug, "Barrosso" I think:
This is a foot pursuit. This guy is just a baddie. He is not portrayed to be highly trained. She manages to catch him in an alley and gets beat up pretty good but gets in some hits and is finally able to "pin" him with a roll up door.

Fight vs. Michael Fassbender
Fassbender's character is trained. He suprises her by punching her in the back of the head so she is at a disadvantage. She pays him back though by smashing his face with something, I don't remember what it was. This fight is brutal and she gets her ass whooped for a bit. Fassbender can't outweigh her by much so it felt somewhat realistic. This particular fight has a front kick from Gina that looked pretty freaking real. In the end she manages to get him in a triangle. My MMA lingo is sketchy but I think that's what it was.

Fight vs. Two police, possibly foreign SWAT
Probably the most unrealistic fight of them all. They are both in full SWAT gear with assault rifles and she jumps out of hiding and takes them both on. Not only do punches knock them out through armor but apparantly she isn't hurt when she punches body armor and helmets either. Easily the most disappointing fight, by far

Fight vs. Ewan McGregor
McGregor's character MAY have training, it's never made clear. She bum rushes him on the beach and puts a whoopin on him. He seems to be kind of a chicken *beep* though he does fight a little bit. Mostly he just runs. Ultimately, he trips and gets his leg stuck in a rock, she doesn't really hurt him too bad. McGregor is pretty tiny so I'd say she had a good shot at kicking his butt.

That's all I remember, though I didn't really take notes so I might have forgotten one. All in all, it wasn't over the top unrealistic. I have to give them credit though because these were NOT "pretty" fights. It gets ugly real quick and people get hurt. They do not go easy on Gina just because she is a girl.

Now, put aside the Sexism bickery and get out there and watch the movie!

*********************************
I wish my grass was emo. It would cut itself.

[–] battdvision 13 years ago

Ya I agree with that, just look at how tiny Ewan's legs are compared to Gina's, lol. IN the preview I saw, I was upset at the SWAT team encounter and I began to think that if that is how this movie was gonna be, it would piss me off.