It is both bizarre and hilarious that Christians get so upset at fictionalized movies like Da Vinci Code and Agora. I suppose part of it has to do with the notion of "Christian as Victim", which really hasnt been valid since the days of the Roman Coliseum. As an evolutionist, should I get as upset over a movie like Godzilla because it contravenes all "accepted" tenets of the theory of evolution? That would be ludicrous, of course, just as ludicrous as the sanctimonious attacks of the uber-Christians about these types of movies. Chill out -- it's a movie not a doctoral thesis or the "word of God."
We are defensive because Hollywood keep making anti-Christian propaganda since about 10 years. I am sick of Hollywood always picking on christianity and I am sick of their propaganda. They make these movies in a attempt to make christianity look bad and I hate that. Also, most atheists who hate christianity are self-hating christians themselves, or at least they were born this way, and this kind of behavior really pisses me off because I just hate self-hating people and have no respect for them.
Firstly, this isn't a "Hollywood movie", it's a Spanish film - directed by a Spaniard, written by two Spaniards and produced by a Spanish company. So all your railing against Hollywood for this movie is just silly.
Secondly, your claim that "most atheists who hate christianity are self-hating christians themselves, or at least they were born this way" is untrue and just, well, plain stupid... I would try to explain it to you, but something tells me I'd be just wasting my time.
So true. I am a christian and have had conversations with atheists and they constantly bring up that christians burned down the library of alexandria. People who are not very well educated believe everything they see in movies, that is the problem. And they use it as ammunition against christians. Ever since this movie came out we have been blamed by a great many people for the destruction of alexandria. And ever since that movie Constantine's Sword came out people are now blaming christians for the holocaust. This is horrific propaganda that is being used against my people maliciously despite the fact that they are untrue. That is why we are angry, because people are idiots they don't read books they just watch movies everything they see in them they perceive as true. This movie's lies have caused even more anger and prejudice towards my people, films that incite this should not be made, period.... The Romans burned down the library, no the christians.... at least that's what the books tell me anyway.
The Roman Empire was Christian at this time... so it was burned down by Roman Christians.
He's referring to the fact that the Library had been destroyed before this time. What remained of the Library after the fire started by Julius Caesar's troops was destroyed when Aurelian sacked Alexandria in the Third Century. This is before the Empire became Christian.
What the movie depicts is the destruction of the Serapeum by a Christian mob. The Serapeum had housed a daughter library of the former Great Library at one stage, but there is zero evidence it still did so when it was destroyed. The movie is perpetuating a myth that has no basis in any evidence by showing a library being destroyed.
It was not a myth. Christian writers such as Tyrannius Rufinus documented the destruction of The Serapeum in Alexandria. Calling it myth is just another attempt to play down history and fact sort of like how evolution is called a myth or that the universe is over 13 billions years old is a myth, or gravity, or the fact that dinosaurs died out long before mankind existed.
Try to pay attention: no-one said the destruction of the Serapeum was a myth. That is described in detail by no less than five separate writers, both Christian and pagan, making it one of the best-attested events in ancient history. The point is that none of them mention any libraries in their account. And when Ammianus describes the Serapeum (writing some decades before its destruction) he refers to its libraries in the past tense.
The myth is that the destruction of the pagan temple of Serapis was a destruction of some remnant of the long-vanished Great Library. None of the sources say anything like this. That whole idea was invented wholesale by Edward Gibbon in 1776 and it has no basis in any of the evidence.
It was not a myth. Christian writers such as Tyrannius Rufinus documented the destruction of The Serapeum in Alexandria. Calling it myth is just another attempt to play down history and fact sort of like how evolution is called a myth or that the universe is over 13 billions years old is a myth, or gravity, or the fact that dinosaurs died out long before mankind existed.
scifi75,
You are absolutely correct about your history. The Sarapeum most certainly did house a library when it was destroyed by Christian fanatics. And more importantly, you are also correct about the motives of the individuals you are debating. Even if you were to take the time to thoroughly refute all of their arguments, they will simply go somewhere else and try to perpetuate their distorted versions of history. Therefore, since I've already wasted too much of my time doing just that, I'll happily spare you some unnecessary effort on your part...
Out of the five accounts we have about the destruction of the Sarapeum, four were written by Christians. Hence, the reason why they don't mention the destruction of the library. As for the fifth, it appears in the 'Lives of the Sophists' written by Eunapius. However, despite the fact that he was exceedingly hostile towards Christians, he produced an edited version of his 'Lives' which had the passages most offensive to Christians removed. Hence, why none of the five accounts mention the destruction of the Sarapeum library. As they say: "History is written by the victors."
As for Ammanius, virtually no scholars believe he personally visited the Sarapeum. This silly little bit of revisionist history is part of a **fringe theory** concocted by the Christian apologist (and Intelligent Design proponent) James Hannam. For starters, Ammanius never says he stopped and visited Alexandria, other than to sail through its port on the way to Thebes. And his so-called "eye-witness description" of the Sarapeum consists of a whopping two whole sentences, one of which is copied verbatim by Aulus Gellius. In addition, he confuses it with the Great Library. Hence, why he used the past tense when discussing the books it formerly held. More importantly, a few years before the destruction of the Sarapeum, Apthonius specifically states that it currently housed a library. So much for the account of Ammanius...
Anyway, I apologize for the intrusion, but imdb hasn't banned these trolls yet and I think it's beyond absurd when you have individuals going from thread to thread blatantly spreading misinformation and calling the scholarly consensus of academics and historians a "myth". And on top of that, then trying to peddle a fringe theory by a Christian apologist/ID proponent. Have they no sense of shame???
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The Sarapeum most certainly did house a library when it was destroyed by Christian fanatics.
"Most certainly" despite the complete lack of any evidence that this is the case. It's remarkable what you can conclude if you dismiss the evidence via a hopeful conspiracy theory that assumes the conclusion you want to reach.
Out of the five accounts we have about the destruction of the Sarapeum, four were written by Christians.
Including one that was written by a member of a faction that hated Cyril. But you just blithely ignore that too.
As for the fifth, it appears in the 'Lives of the Sophists' written by Eunapius. However, despite the fact that he was exceedingly hostile towards Christians, he produced an edited version of his 'Lives' which had the passages most offensive to Christians removed.
Wrong, you bumbling moron. How many more times do I have to tell you that the work that had an expurgated version was not his Lives, it was his continuation of Dexippus' History. The passage in the Lives is full of the most withering scorn and contempt for Christians, yet, while he's piling insult on insult about Christianity in his account of their destruction of the Serapeum he makes no mention of these Christians destroying a library. According to your conspiracy theory, your assumed reference to the library was removed but all the other anti-Christian elements were, oddly, left in. That makes no sense at all.
As for Ammanius, virtually no scholars believe he personally visited the Sarapeum.
Actually, virtually no scholars have bothered to discuss the question. You're depending on the view of one person - the rabidly anti-Christian polemicist Richard Carrier. Hmmm, now I wonder why he might be keen to explain the lack of any mention of libraries in the Serapeum away ...
Ammanius never says he stopped and visited Alexandria, other than to sail through its port on the way to Thebes.
*cough* Yes, he was in such a hurry to get to Thebes that he didn't bother to stop and look at a building he later describes in detail and calls a "splendour ... such that mere words can only do it an injustice". What gibberish.
And his so-called "eye-witness description" of the Sarapeum consists of a whopping two whole sentences, one of which is copied verbatim by Aulus Gellius.
"Copied verbatim" = nothing like Gellius except in one short phrase. Get a clue.
It's remarkable what you can conclude if you dismiss the evidence via a hopeful conspiracy theory that assumes the conclusion you want to reach.
No, what is truly remarkable is that you think the scholarly consensus of historians and academics regarding the destruction of the Sarapeum and its library is somehow a vast conspiracy being waged against the Church. That and you seem to conveniently forget that you are the one peddling a fringe theory. From an Intelligent Design proponent no less!
Wrong, you bumbling moron. How many more times do I have to tell you that the work that had an expurgated version was not his Lives, it was his continuation of Dexippus' History.
How many times do I have to tell you, you've confused yourself. It's common knowledge that the most offensive passages to Christians were edited from his 'Lives'. F'ing Google it!
...the rabidly anti-Christian polemicist Richard Carrier. Hmmm, now I wonder why he might be keen to explain the lack of any mention of libraries in the Serapeum away
Except that he's so "rabidly anti-Christian" that he debunks anyone/everyone who blames Christians for the destruction of the Great Library. What nonsense.
Yes, he was in such a hurry to get to Thebes that he didn't bother to stop and look at a building he later describes in detail and calls a "splendour ... such that mere words can only do it an injustice".
Again. No scholars believe this. Except your silly little ID proponent with his fringe theory.
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No, what is truly remarkable is that you think the scholarly consensus of historians and academics regarding the destruction of the Sarapeum and its library is somehow a vast conspiracy being waged against the Church.
I don't care about "the Church" at all.
That and you seem to conveniently forget that you are the one peddling a fringe theory. From an Intelligent Design proponent no less!
Yes, a theory so "fringe" that it can be found in Wikipedia.
It's common knowledge that the most offensive passages to Christians were edited from his 'Lives'. F'ing Google it!
Dodge noted. If this is "common knowledge", why do you dodge and weave every time I challenge you to back up this fantasy with evidence?
No scholars believe this.
Really? So, apart from that nerdy little dweeb Carrier, which scholars have even discussed this? Name and cite them.
Yes, a theory so "fringe" that it can be found in Wikipedia.
Thanks for the laughs! Just when I thought your rebuttals couldn't get any more pathetic... Wikipedia! That's rich.
If this is "common knowledge", why do you dodge and weave every time I challenge you to back up this fantasy with evidence?
Well, if you can't figure out how Google works, then your lovely little wikipedia can even tell you exactly what you don't want to hear on that one. Besides, I'm not here to hold your hand, cupcake.
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In case you forgot already, you just called the academic consensus of historians and scholars regarding the destruction of the Sarapeum and its library a "conspiracy theory". The above "rebuttal" doesn't refute anything at all. And for F's sake, you can stop pretending to be an atheist already! The cat's out of the bag!
So, apart from that nerdy little dweeb Carrier, which scholars have even discussed this?
It's rather unfortunate you harbor such animosity towards Dr. Carrier that you feel the need to slander him every chance you get. Especially considering how polite he was to you when you were attacking him on his own blog like some unhinged stalker. Anyway, I imagine most scholars wouldn't be wasting their time dealing with absurd fringe theories from Intelligent Design proponents. What really matters here is the academic consensus is in complete agreement that there is no reason whatsoever to believe the Sarapeum library magically disappeared before it was razed to the ground by Christian fanatics. Period.
In case you forgot already, you just called the academic consensus of historians and scholars regarding the destruction of the Sarapeum and its library a "conspiracy theory".
Er, no - that's just another example of one of your lies. Anyone who can read English can see that what I referred to as a conspiracy theory was your incoherent wishful thinking whereby there are zero references to any libraries in the five accounts of the Serapeum because of a combination of Christian bias and some manipulation. You haven't explained why an enemy of Cyril's like Socrates Scholasticus would whitewash this crime. And you have repeatedly dodged challenges to back up your fantasy that we have an expurgated version of Eunapius' Lives. This conspiracy theory of yours is not backed by any scholars at all, so stop your lying.
And for F's sake, you can stop pretending to be an atheist already! The cat's out of the bag!
*yawn* So I guess the fact that I'm a subscribing supporter of the Atheist Foundation of Australia (ask them if you like) and have an online trail of posts as an atheist on various fora dating all the way back to 1992 is all some elaborate ruse. Yes, it makes so much sense that I started "pretending" to be an atheist almost twenty years ago just so I could confound some anonymous internet dweeb on IMDB in 2011. Get a frigging grip - no-one is going to believe something so absurd.
It's rather unfortunate you harbor such animosity towards Dr. Carrier ...
No, it's perfectly fine. I harbour similar contempt and disregard for similar ideologues of all stripes who distort history thanks to their hidebound agendas. And I'm hardly the only atheist with scorn for that librarian-blogger's dabblings in scholarship. Here's a recent post by R. Joseph Hoffmann (ie a genuine professional scholar):
But let me guess - Prof Hoffmann is also "pretending" to be an atheist, right?
Just when I thought your rebuttals couldn't get any more pathetic... Wikipedia! That's rich.
Try to focus. You tried to pretend that the idea there were no longer any libraries in the Serapeum when it was destroyed was some kind of "fringe theory" held by one person - James Hannam. Yet there it is in the article on the Great Library in a source as mainstream as Wiki. Hardly a "fringe theory".
Well, if you can't figure out how Google works, then your lovely little wikipedia can even tell you exactly what you don't want to hear on that one.
More doging. Please don't tell me you're referring to this:
Eunapius was the author of two works, one entitled Lives of the Sophists, and the other consisting of a continuation of the history of Dexippus. The former work is still extant; of the latter only excerpts remain, but the facts are largely incorporated in the work of Zosimus. It embraced the history of events from AD 270–404.
The Lives of the Sophists, a collection of the biographies of twenty-three older and contemporary philosophers and sophists of the author, is valuable as the only source for the history of the Neoplatonism of that period. The style of both works is marked by a spirit of bitter hostility to Christianity. Photius had before him a "new edition" of the history in which the passages most offensive to Christians were omitted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunapius
This conspiracy theory of yours is not backed by any scholars at all, so stop your lying.
Unfortunately, my so-called "conspiracy theory" is simply more examples of history being written by the victors. (Of course, I'm sure it might seem that way to the "faithful believers" who blindly swallowed the fringe theory excreted by Hannam...) Not that it really matters, though, because it doesn't change the fact that the academic consensus is *still* in complete agreement that there is no reason whatsoever to believe the Sarapeum library magically disappeared before it was razed to the ground by Christian fanatics.
So I guess the fact that I'm a subscribing supporter of the Atheist Foundation of Australia (ask them if you like) and have an online trail of posts as an atheist on various fora dating all the way back to 1992 is all some elaborate ruse.
F'ING HIL-ARI-OUS!!! And totally suspicious... I mean, seriously, WTF?!? Who would really have a twenty-year(!!!) online trail of posts as an atheist? Are you actually *trying* to make everyone think that you are lying?!?
I harbour similar contempt and disregard for similar ideologues of all stripes who distort history thanks to their hidebound agendas.
Which includes, in addition to Dr. Carrier, the entire academic consensus of historians and scholars, with the sole exception of James "Intelligent Design" Hannam, of course...
You tried to pretend that the idea there were no longer any libraries in the Serapeum when it was destroyed was some kind of "fringe theory" held by one person - James Hannam. Yet there it is in the article on the Great Library in a source as mainstream as Wiki.
Was that article written (or plagarized;) by "DrSerafinaCuomo" by any chance? But seriously, allow me to direct your attention to wikipedia's motto: "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." The keyword being "anyone"... Regardless, I love your absurd rebuttal: "My fringe theory isn't accepted by the anyone in the academic community, but it's on wikipedia!"
And BTW- Yes, it most certainly is still a "fringe theory". By definition. Because, once again, the academic consensus is STILL in complete agreement that there is no reason whatsoever to believe the Sarapeum library magically disappeared before it was razed to the ground by Christian fanatics. Period. And until your so-called "rebuttals" can refute these fundamental facts, I will keep repeating them... So sorry, creampuff.
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Unfortunately, my so-called "conspiracy theory" is simply more examples of history being written by the victors.
That's a conclusion that you began with and then, not surprisingly, arrived at because it's where you began. Where is your evidence that this is the case? Your whacko wishful thinking is a conspiracy theory because conspiracy theories are always based on an excuse for the lack of any supporting evidence: "It's all been covered up by the Jews"/"The government has threatened all the people who know what really happened at Roswell"/"Christians whitewashed what happened when the Serapeum's libraries burned which is why there is zero evidence that this ever happened but I KNOW it did because I just KNOW, so there!"
the academic consensus is *still* in complete agreement that there is no reason whatsoever to believe the Sarapeum library magically disappeared before it was razed to the ground by Christian fanatics.
So you keep saying. Yet when I have asked you to cite and quote some academics who have analysed whether this may have happened and come to this "consensus" conclusion, you dance away and start your usual dodging and weaving act ...
Who would really have a twenty-year(!!!) online trail of posts as an atheist?
Ummm, you mean apart from an atheist who has been contributing to online discussions since 1991? No-one that I can think of. That was precisely my point. Are you going for a Guinness Book of Record for "Stupid"?
allow me to direct your attention to wikipedia's motto: "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." The keyword being "anyone"...
And the way it works is that because "anyone" can edit it, lots do. Which means, in the end, edits that skew an article towards a baseless, unsupported or fringe theory or a piece of personal research tend to get edited back to something more mainstream, as anyone who has been involved in editing or watching a Wiki article would know. The idea that the Serapeum no longer contained any libraries is in there because it's a mainstream and perfectly valid interpretation of the evidence.
Things you have failed to produce:
(i) Am explanation of why Socrates Scholasticus would whitewash the actions of Cyril. (ii) Any evidence that Eunapius' LIves had parts "most offensive" to Christians removed the way one version of his History did (especially given that the passage in question is riddled with repeated insults and abuse of Christians right there in the text) (iii) An excuse for clinging to Carrier's warped lie about how Ammianus' passage is "verbatim" what Gellius wrote when it is nothing of the sort.
You and I both know you've failed here. What exactly are you getting out of this silly little game?
That's a conclusion that you began with and then, not surprisingly, arrived at because it's where you began.
Sorry, Garbage, but it's not my conclusion. It's the conclusion that was reached by the academic consensus. I'm just posting accurate information to counter your misinformation for the benefit of others reading this thread.
But it's rather ironic that you should accuse me of that, because it's obviously what Hannam did. In addition to being an ID proponent, he's also a Christian apologist. Therefore, he started with his conclusion and then twists the evidence to fit his biased, pro-Christian agenda. Unfortunately, no scholars think Ammanius visited the Sarapeum (except Hannam). Likewise, there is no evidence that its books magically disappeared before the temple was destroyed (except Hannam's speculation based on no evidence whatsoever). And Hannam and his fringe theory have to ignore the account of Apthonius who states there were books in the temple at this time. Etc. Etc.
Furthermore, you are hypocritically applying a double standard. Hannam believes that Caesar destroyed the Great Library, but has no qualms with the fact that neither Caesar nor his lieutenant mention the burning of the Great Library in their accounts. Yet when the Christians don't mention the destruction of any books in the Sarapeum, the absense of evidence suddenly becomes evidence of their absense.
Ummm, you mean apart from an atheist who has been contributing to online discussions since 1991?
It's *completely* suspicious how often you offer absolute "proof" of your identity, when such a thing is manifestly impossible online. Secondly, I find it hard to believe there are more than a handful of websites gobbling up their server space with maintaining twenty-year old threads on their message boards!?! But hey, who knows? Regardless, it really wouldn't prove anything anyway. Because we're all anonymous online! Only that you (or multiple individuals under the same screen name) have been trolling for quite a while now.
And the way it works is that because "anyone" can edit it, lots do. [blah-blah-blah]
Yeah, whatever... The bottom line is that your argument still amounts to this: "My fringe theory isn't accepted by the anyone in the academic community, but it's on wikipedia!"
The idea that the Serapeum no longer contained any libraries is in there because it's a mainstream and perfectly valid interpretation of the evidence.
If by "mainstream", you mean it's not accepted by any academics with the sole exception of "DrSerafinaCuomo" who came to the imdb message boards to plagarize the works of another scholar and praise your cute little blog, then sure! And if by "perfectly valid interpretation of the evidence", you mean ignoring the evidence of Apthonius and twisting the evidence of Ammanius who also copied another author for half of his two-sentence description of the Sarapeum which somehow he managed to confuse with the Great Library, then sure!
Things you have failed to produce...
What you mean to say is: "Things I refuse to produce for a lying, deceitful troll who pretends to be an atheist, plagarizes scholars, and creates fake-users." But even without wasting more of my time, I think I can provide some common-sense (and rather obvious) explanations for the benefit of *others* reading this thread.
i. Even though Socrates Scholasticus and Cyril weren't fond of each other, they still were both Christians. Thus, it would be kind of stupid to throw the whole Church under the bus just so you could piss off your adversary. ii. Exactly as reported, Eunapius only removed the "most offensive" passages. Since he hated Christians, it would have been absurd for him to remove every single offensive passage. iii. His description of the Sarapeum is two sentences. One of which is obviously cribbed from Gellius. The other is a general description of pillars, etc. Oh yeah, and he mistakes it for the Great Library! Really?!?
What exactly are you getting out of this silly little game?
What exactly do you get posting the same lies and misinformation on the same message board for over two years straight? Because I imagine it's the opposite of that.
It's *completely* suspicious how often you offer absolute "proof" of your identity, when such a thing is manifestly impossible online. Secondly, I find it hard to believe there are more than a handful of websites gobbling up their server space with maintaining twenty-year old threads on their message boards!?! But hey, who knows? Regardless, it really wouldn't prove anything anyway. Because we're all anonymous online! Only that you (or multiple individuals under the same screen name) have been trolling for quite a while now.
I find it amusing that you'll admit proving someone's identity is manifestly impossible online (which isn't strictly true, of course), while at the same time making and believing the accusation that Tim is PRETENDING to be an atheist. So not only can he not prove he is who is he, you don't have to prove he is whom you suspect him to be!
"No True Atheist would..."
I've been online since 1997. I think most internet archives don't go back much before 1996 (if you're lucky, with the wayback machine and stuff like that) but I can't speak for USEnet or any of that stuff (which I never bothered with).
You probably won't be able to dig up any "posts" by him from 1992, unless they've been consciously kept and archived since then. But still, your whole thing of claiming he's a Christian is one of the oldest (and stupidest) come-backs against him, period. Unless you've got some evidence to back up that he's a fake, stop already.
For all you know, I'm not really a Catholic, but an atheist, who has been impersonating one online all this time myself. ;)
For all we know, you're not real either, tcob, but a sock account Tim created to amuse himself by having somebody to snipe at endlessly.
Why stop there? Maybe nobody is who they claim to be. I mean, if all we're doing is accusing people, I guess that's all good.
I find it amusing that you'll admit proving someone's identity is manifestly impossible online (which isn't strictly true, of course), while at the same time making and believing the accusation that Tim is PRETENDING to be an atheist.
If by "atheist" you mean holding all the opposite opinions of someone who doesn't believe in God, then sure, Tim's a bonafide "atheist"! Seriously, other than claiming to be one, what has he ever said that's remotely in line with typical atheist beliefs?
And I'm not saying atheists can't have any atypical beliefs. But if like Garbage, they *only* hold atypical beliefs, then they are an atheist in name only. Especially when they always attack and slander fellow atheists (and then rabidly promote fringe theories which attempt to rewrite history and exonerate the Church for their role in bringing about the Dark Ages.)
I think most internet archives don't go back much before 1996
*Message board* archives? Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. Do you have any idea how much memory that takes up?!? (Rhetorical. You obviously don't.) Click your imdb profile. Notice that posts on popular boards don't go back more than a year or so? That's why. Why in the F would anyone keep a fifteen year-old conversation up? Who in the F looks back at a post they made fifteen years ago to see if there are any new replies? Just *think* about exactly how stupid that is for a single second...
For all we know, you're not real either, tcob, but a sock account Tim created to amuse himself by having somebody to snipe at endlessly.
Why do you think that's so implausible in today's world? Where advertising companies pay individuals to walk around listening to a CD they are marketing while they give "rave reviews" about it everywhere they go (and so everyone can hear). Or online stores who pay apartment buildings to keep empty boxes (with their logos on the sides) outside by the doorman as an advertising ploy. Or film marketing firms who fabricate fake critics with "rave reviews" for their TV trailer blurbs. Or the same film marketing firms have their employees flood message boards with "rave reviews" for whatever film they are being paid to promote. Or book authors promoting fringe theories who troll website message boards under a plethora of nom de plumes all promoting the same blog in their signature which gives its only 5-star book review to 'God's Philosophers' by James "Intelligent Design" Hannam. Possible in today's world? Absolutely. Far-fetched? Not at all.
And on top of all the above reasons to be suspicious, factor in that everywhere Garbage goes online he somehow gets tangled up in sock-puppet/fake-user scandals. Or how fake users falsely claiming to be renowned scholars like "DrSerafinaCuomo" from Birbeck College University of London come to both the Agora message boards and other message boards, only to sing the praises of Garbage's blog and make plagarized proclamations about how they are in perfect agreement with James "ID Wonder-boy" Hannam...
I mean, seriously, it's Christians who ally themselves with and defend this sort of lying and deceitful behaviour that make the Christians in 'Agora' look like Good Samaritans!
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If by "atheist" you mean holding all the opposite opinions of someone who doesn't believe in God, then sure, Tim's a bonafide "atheist"! Seriously, other than claiming to be one, what has he ever said that's remotely in line with typical atheist beliefs?
So you define "atheism" as a cult where everyone holds to the same views and positions?
Here and I thought an "atheist" is simply someone who "lacks a belief in gods." That's what atheists have been telling us on the internet for years.
So what's the litmus test of atheism? Agreeing with Richard Carrier? Just being a dick? (and if it's the latter, he's got that one covered, look at the history of people calling Tim "mean" and criticizing his habit of insulting people online).
But I'm surprised you think there's meant to be some kind of official "orthodoxy" amongst atheists.
And I'm not saying atheists can't have any atypical beliefs.
See above. All it takes to be an "atheist" is to lack a belief in God, right? Or are you disagreeing with that definition promoted so heavily by atheists online for the last several years?
But if like Garbage, they *only* hold atypical beliefs, then they are an atheist in name only.
So we're stereotyping atheists now? Are you an atheist yourself?
Does Tim believe God exists? Does he worship God? Is he a Christian, Muslim or practicing Jew? Is he a Hindu or a pagan who worships nature or something?
He's a non-believer in God, so he's an atheist (which matches his claim to be one), no matter what else he might say or do. If he believed God existed and claimed to be an atheist, then you might have a point. If you had proof that he was a Christian and his atheism was just "an act" to fool people, then you might have a point.
It's a huge jump from the assumption that all true atheists agree on certain things (apart from lacking belief in deities) that that amounts to being a secret Christian.
Especially when they always attack and slander fellow atheists (and then rabidly promote fringe theories which attempt to rewrite history and exonerate the Church for their role in bringing about the Dark Ages.)
Which atheists does he need to agree with to be considered a "True" atheist? Who are the guardians of atheist "orthodoxy"?
You're agreeing then that "atheism" is an organized religion?
I think most internet archives don't go back much before 1996
*Message board* archives? Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. Do you have any idea how much memory that takes up?!? (Rhetorical. You obviously don't.)
What type of machinery is used in this Internet Archive?
Much of the Internet Archive is stored on hundreds of slightly modified x86 servers. The computers run on the Linux operating system. Each computer has 512Mb of memory and can hold just over 1 Terabyte of data on ATA disks. However we are developing a new way of storing our data on a smaller machine. Each machine will store 1 terabyte. For more information go to www.petabox.org.
I guess you're unfamiliar with the wayback machine. I guess you've never heard of Google cache. I guess you don't know that various message boards usually save their old stuff for years, even decades. Just because IMDB.com doesn't store every message going back to when it was first founded (popular boards delete messages after 21 days of no replies), doesn't mean there's no trace of a person outside of this community. If you look up Tim O'Neil and his various handles online you'll see he's posted a lot of other places than here. That's pretty common. Very few people who use the internet regularly use only one name and confine themselves to only one forum.
So I darn well do know what I'm talking about. You on the other hand, make it even worse for yourself, by making wild accusations against people that you presume can't be proven OR disproven.
Click your imdb profile. Notice that posts on popular boards don't go back more than a year or so? That's why.
See above. We're talking about the internet itself here, not IMDB, as if that's the only place a person can post messages. Tim's got a website, he's got a blog. He posts in at LEAST two other forums outside this one that have no connection to IMDB. Let me see, off hand, I used to post semi-regularly in 6 or 7 other forums besides this one (and one of those forums was a bunch of forums that were combined into one after a few years).
Why in the F would anyone keep a fifteen year-old conversation up?
Go to archive.org and ask them. Ask Google. Ask anybody why they would save anything. Every ubb or vbulletin or whatever software they're talking about saves stuff. Because people want to look up information. People want to have post counts to establish veteranship. People want to save info in case they need to track somebody down. They save memorable conversations and so forth. It's actually a big hassle to go through and remove stuff and leads to the unintended consequence of annoying people who wanted access to that information. So unless the amount of data they get is completely overwhelming and mostly spam, it's easier for most places to just leave it up.
One of the main forums I used to frequent has posts going back to 2003, that's 8 years ago (and it actually had stuff from '97 in there but that got wiped out in a server crash when the forums were upgraded if memory serves). A couple others go back to 2002. And that's without even touching the archive.org site (which save stuff going back to the mid-90's).
Who in the F looks back at a post they made fifteen years ago to see if there are any new replies? Just *think* about exactly how stupid that is for a single second...
Fine then, please visit all those thousands of boards and tell people how stupid they are for not deleting all their old posts.
Why do you think that's so implausible in today's world? Where advertising companies pay individuals to walk around listening to a CD they are marketing while they give "rave reviews" about it everywhere they go (and so everyone can hear).
Lots of things are plausible. But without evidence, it's pointless. So you have faith in things without evidence?
Or online stores who pay apartment buildings to keep empty boxes (with their logos on the sides) outside by the doorman as an advertising ploy. Or film marketing firms who fabricate fake critics with "rave reviews" for their TV trailer blurbs. Or the same film marketing firms have their employees flood message boards with "rave reviews" for whatever film they are being paid to promote. Or book authors promoting fringe theories who troll website message boards under a plethora of nom de plumes all promoting the same blog in their signature which gives its only 5-star book review to 'God's Philosophers' by James "Intelligent Design" Hannam. Possible in today's world? Absolutely. Far-fetched? Not at all.
Without evidence, it's a conspiracy theory. Again, I might be an atheist, trying to make religious people look good (or bad, depending upon how you think my posts look to the outside world, lol).
You're just as much a "troll" as you think he is, since you keep arguing with him, so if that's your opinion, I'd just put him on ignore and stop giving him what he craves (right?).
If you've got evidence that Tim is being paid by some Church, please bring forth the evidence. I do love the personal attack on James Hannam. First of all, how do you know he's a believer in "Intelligent Design"? Second, how is that relevant to anything he writes as a historian?
That's like me pointing out that Robert M. Price is a comic book nerd who writes books about Cthulu. So why would you trust anything that "Robert 'Cthulu' Price" has to say on the New Testament?
And on top of all the above reasons to be suspicious,
Those aren't reasons to be suspicious. You simply stated that people exist in the world who promote things for purposes of advertising. That doesn't prove that any specific person is one of those people. Otherwise, again, I'm an atheist being paid to promote Catholicism, or a Catholic being paid by atheists to say what I say. Maybe Tim pays you to say what you say, to make himself look like an active debater.
The existence of conspiracies does not make something a conspiracy. Evidence must be brought forward. I think the only suspicion here is that you use specious logic against him, implying he's really been getting to you, and you consider him a threat or were personally offended in some way.
factor in that everywhere Garbage goes online he somehow gets tangled up in sock-puppet/fake-user scandals.
Ridiculous. YOU CREATED THAT ACCUSATION YOURSELF... based on... nothing.
Unless you have evidence he's fake, then it's just as useless as calling somebody a Nazi or a Sheep because they don't agree with you. It's one of the oldest internet insults next to calling somebody gay or a virgin who lives in their mom's basement.
Or how fake users falsely claiming to be renowned scholars like "DrSerafinaCuomo" from Birbeck College University of London come to both the Agora message boards and other message boards, only to sing the praises of Garbage's blog and make plagarized proclamations about how they are in perfect agreement with James "ID Wonder-boy" Hannam...
I'm not sure how the existence of a faker on the same board makes HIM fake. What's your theory, that Tim is James Hannam? You obviously hate the guy, so maybe you DO think that...
I mean, seriously, it's Christians who ally themselves with and defend this sort of lying and deceitful behaviour that make the Christians in 'Agora' look like Good Samaritans!
Replace "Christians" with "Jews" and see why nobody takes you seriously.
And that's a stupid exaggeration anyway, as the Christians in Agora are mass murderers. You're accusing Tim of lying about being an atheist (or being paid off by Christians, I guess) and James Hanaam of being a bad person for believing (you allege, anyway, I don't know what his actual views are, since nobody's bothered to substantiate them here) in "Intelligent Design." I'm not sure how that compares to the caricatured Christians in "Agora."
If you think Tim is wrong to cite Hanaam, why is it okay for you to cite somebody like Carrier? If that's the beef, then why don't you dig up some more modern historians who agree with your side, and force Tim to either do the same or admit his view is "fringe" as you claim.
I can see why he enjoys responding to you though, refuting the goofy things you say is effortless. But hey, I defended him, so why don't you say I'm part of the conspiracy? I've even got a link to his blog in my sig. And I lovedCrocodile Dundee. C'mon, admit you believe it! ;)
So you define "atheism" as a cult where everyone holds to the same views and positions?
No. But feel free to have an imaginary debate with yourself.
So we're stereotyping atheists now?
No. But again, feel free to have a pretend argument with yourself.
It's a huge jump from the assumption that all true atheists agree on certain things (apart from lacking belief in deities) that that amounts to being a secret Christian.
Except that Garbage agrees with Christians on every single topic. And BTW- Why the F are you arguing for him? And how do you presume to know all this stuff about him?
You're agreeing then that "atheism" is an organized religion?
Apparently, you'd rather make stuff up to "refute". Therefore, I'm going to mostly ignore your ridiculous statements, accusations, and questions. Sorry.
So I darn well do know what I'm talking about.
I don't know about you, but I've been talking about message board archives... So are you claiming that archive.org stores these? Do they have all of imdb's message boards archived going back to when the site began?
One of the main forums I used to frequent has posts going back to 2003, that's 8 years ago
Wonderful. So one forum goes back 8 years. Any of them go back 20 years?
Fine then, please visit all those thousands of boards and tell people how stupid they are for not deleting all their old posts.
You missed the point.
Lots of things are plausible. But without evidence, it's pointless. So you have faith in things without evidence?
With the exception of the book author scenario, everything I said there is a known fact. I wasn't listing hypothetical scenarios (except for the book author one).
First of all, how do you know he's a believer in "Intelligent Design"?
Just Google his name and Intelligent Design.
Second, how is that relevant to anything he writes as a historian?
It shows his fondness for fringe theories and his lack of critical thinking skills. Among other things.
That's like me pointing out that Robert M. Price is a comic book nerd who writes books about Cthulu. So why would you trust anything that "Robert 'Cthulu' Price" has to say on the New Testament?
No, it's obviously not. Seriously, can't you come up with any better rebuttals than this?
I think the only suspicion here is that you use specious logic against him, implying he's really been getting to you, and you consider him a threat or were personally offended in some way.
Okay. Thanks for sharing. But I don't really care what you think.
YOU CREATED THAT ACCUSATION YOURSELF... based on... nothing.
Google "Tim O'Neill" and "sock puppet". Three different websites on the first page. Then read about the "Frank Walton" stuff.
I'm not sure how the existence of a faker on the same board makes HIM fake.
For starters, he's the only one who quoted her fake/plagarized posts, something he did multiple times on his blog, on imdb, and on other message boards. That and the fake user praised his ridiculous blog. You do the math.
If you think Tim is wrong to cite Hanaam, why is it okay for you to cite somebody like Carrier?
I don't cite Carrier. I know nothing about the him except that Garbage despises the guy because he exposed numerous flaws in Hannam's fringe theory. That and Garbage was stalking him on his own blog.
I can see why he enjoys responding to you though, refuting the goofy things you say is effortless.
Yeah, I'm sure you think so. Unfortunately, everyone else can see that he certainly hasn't had much success doing so. As for you, you've done a wonderful job of misinterpreting what I say, missing the point, or creating wholly fabricated scenarios, to which you thoroughly "refute". But please let me know when you want to actually debate the topics being discussed. Thanks in advance!
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Except that Garbage agrees with Christians on every single topic.
Clearly he disagrees with us on a great many topics, else he'd be a Christian. You'd be making a huge logical leap that because he doesn't believe anti-Christian conspiracy theories that therefore he agrees with Christians on "every single topic" or is a secret Christian himself!
It sounds like you've presumed the opposite... that a true atheist is defined as a person who disagrees with Christians on every topic or attacks them at every opportunity (and would never think to contradict a fellow atheist in public!).
I'm way off base, right?
And BTW- Why the F are you arguing for him? And how do you presume to know all this stuff about him?
I see a dumb argument, and I can't help myself but refute it. It's a weakness of mine. ;)
I don't see a compelling case being made that he's a Christian pretending to be an atheist, which is what you're accusing him of. He who asserts must prove, especially when it's such a personal accusation against someone.
Apparently, you'd rather make stuff up to "refute". Therefore, I'm going to mostly ignore your ridiculous statements, accusations, and questions. Sorry.
You've made many ridiculous statements without me having to invent any.
Notice I'm not the one actually accusing people of being fake on here.
I don't know about you, but I've been talking about message board archives...
Well now you know we weren't talking about the IMDB board archives.
So are you claiming that archive.org stores these? Do they have all of imdb's message boards archived going back to when the site began?
It actually DOES archive imdb boards, though it doesn't go back that far (for example the Agora board goes back to August 2010). The Da Vinci Code board goes back to February 2006, but because of their policy of deleting threads, you can only really view the titles of those long removed posts.
Anyway, as has been explained to you, there's a digital "paper trail" for this guy going way back, we don't need to resort to conspiracy theories to explain his existence on these forums at imdb.
Wonderful. So one forum goes back 8 years. Any of them go back 20 years?
See his post.
You missed the point.
And your point is refuted in that there's evidence going back further. So it is possible to establish that somebody existed on the internet prior to this particular board's archive.
With the exception of the book author scenario, everything I said there is a known fact. I wasn't listing hypothetical scenarios (except for the book author one).
So you agree then that Tim O'Neill ("Da-Vinci-Code-Is-Garbage") is a real atheist who has been posting on the internet for many years prior to his appearance on this particular board?
Great, then we're done here.
Just Google his name and Intelligent Design.
How about you do it and show us. It's not my duty to research this guy to confirm your accusations against him.
It shows his fondness for fringe theories and his lack of critical thinking skills. Among other things.
Is he a biologist? A geologist? A cosmological astrophysicist? Or any other field relevant to the study of evolutionary theory or the origins of the universe? If not, then he is not a "theorist" anymore than you or I are when we speculate about something outside our own field of expertise.
What matters is his work in his own field, which would be history. Is he a competent historian? By the same token, we would not look to Richard Dawkins as an expert theologian or religious historian, but as a scientist, since that's his field of expertise. Just because his views on religion are fringe, does not mean that he is an incomptent scientist. We have to evaluate his expert work in comparison with his peers.
You're going to have to realize that accepting someone's expertise in their field is not the same as a blanket endorsement of every little opinion, preference or prejudice that person has in every other area of life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's like me pointing out that Robert M. Price is a comic book nerd who writes books about Cthulu. So why would you trust anything that "Robert 'Cthulu' Price" has to say on the New Testament? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, it's obviously not. Seriously, can't you come up with any better rebuttals than this?
It's perfectly valid, because Robert M. Price IS a comic book nerd who writes books about the Cthulu mythos. It's his self-professed hobby. Therefore, using your logic, we shouldn't trust him, because his mind is filled with fantasy and he wastes vast amounts of time on stuff that many other people consider crap.
In reality of course none of his pet theories or hobbies are relevant when we examine his New Testament scholarship. It matters what he says as an expert in his field of expertise, compared to his peers in the field.
Even if he was the world's greatest NT scholar, that would not somehow prove that H.P. Lovecraft is a great writer or that comic books are objectively awesome. If we think his biblical theories have merit, we are not required to endorse his views on Spider-Man, for example.
Okay. Thanks for sharing. But I don't really care what you think.
You cared enough to reply... again. ;)
Google "Tim O'Neill" and "sock puppet". Three different websites on the first page. Then read about the "Frank Walton" stuff.
No, how about YOU dig up whatever "evidence" you think makes your case and present it here. What are you afraid of?
It's not my job to try to DISPROVE your oddball assertions and conspiracy theories. Go ahead. If it's such powerful stuff, surely you'll shut him down in a hurry (isn't that your goal?).
This is no time to be lazy. He who asserts [hint: that's you here] must prove.
For starters, he's the only one who quoted her fake/plagarized posts,
That doesn't prove a thing. Actually I sent people messages guiding them to the thread (when I thought it was real). I also sent a message, if memory serves, to the person's account. So why not say I was in on the "scam" too?
The most obviously explanation is that this person appeared to be the genuine article and appeared to be on Tim's side, so he quoted them. No conspiracy needed to explain that.
something he did multiple times on his blog, on imdb, and on other message boards. That and the fake user praised his ridiculous blog. You do the math.
It doesn't prove he created the fake or was in cahoots with whomever did. If you have better proof than this, please bring it forward.
Falling for a scam doesn't make you the scammer, does it?
I don't cite Carrier. I know nothing about the him except that Garbage despises the guy because he exposed numerous flaws in Hannam's fringe theory. That and Garbage was stalking him on his own blog.
Okay, so you've got nothing. You simply dismiss Hannam because you think his affiliation (allegedly, since you've yet to establish this with any evidence) with the "Intelligent Design" camp means we can ignore whatever historical scholarship he's ever done.
It's terrible that you are unaware of ANY scholars that support your theory. How can you determine what is "fringe" and what isn't, if all you know is Hannam? (presuming you even know his work and haven't just dismissed it because of supposed ties to "Intelligent Design").
Yeah, I'm sure you think so. Unfortunately, everyone else can see that he certainly hasn't had much success doing so.
Who for example? Why aren't they speaking up? Anyway, it doesn't matter how many conspiracy nuts agree with you. The truth is the truth, and we establish that by arguments based on evidence, not wishful thinking or innuendo.
As for you, you've done a wonderful job of misinterpreting what I say, missing the point,
You clearly misunderstood what we were talking about regarding internet archives, so we're not solely to blame. I was also mistaken in presuming that you'd actually looked at both sides of this "controversy."
or creating wholly fabricated scenarios,
Projection... you asserted that Tim O'Neil was a faker. Apparently you think he's an imposter and created the fake Serafina account to support himself. Are those "real" or "fabricated" scenarios?
Or are you going to say that you kept it vague, so you really weren't saying anything, just implying it?
to which you thoroughly "refute". But please let me know when you want to actually debate the topics being discussed. Thanks in advance!
Okay, you can start by providing a list of modern historical scholars who agree that the Christians destroyed a "daughter library" of the Great Library of Alexandria in the Serapeum around the time of the events covered by the film. Once you've given us their names, we can begin discussing the works in which they make those claims, and the evidence they present to make their case.
If your retort is to assert that scholars can't be trusted because of their religious beliefs, or because the person presenting the material might be a secret imposter, then we'll just go back over this again, and again, and until you get it, or annoy everyone so much that you end up on all the ignore lists.
It sounds like you've presumed the opposite... that a true atheist is defined as a person who disagrees with Christians on every topic or attacks them at every opportunity (and would never think to contradict a fellow atheist in public!).
I'm way off base, right?
Yes. And once again, you are perfectly content to ignore what I actually say and make up your own scenarios. Seriously, stop wasting my time.
I don't see a compelling case being made that he's a Christian pretending to be an atheist, which is what you're accusing him of.
That's wonderful, but unfortunately no one really cares much what you think.
He who asserts must prove, especially when it's such a personal accusation against someone.
We're all anonymous online! Hello!
Well now you know we weren't talking about the IMDB board archives.
And neither am I. Can you actually read?
So it is possible to establish that somebody existed on the internet prior to this particular board's archive.
No, it doesn't. All it establishes is that they have the same screen names. Once again: We're all anonymous online! Your "proof" doesn't prove anything!
How about you do it and show us. It's not my duty to research this guy to confirm your accusations against him.
Google is your b!tch. Not me.
It's perfectly valid, because Robert M. Price IS a comic book nerd who writes books about the Cthulu mythos.[blah-blah-blah]
No, it's clearly not the same thing. Writing fiction is clearly not the same as scholarly works. Your not comparing apples to apples. Seriously, why aren't these kinds of things obvious to you?
He who asserts [hint: that's you here] must prove.
Once again: We're all anonymous online! Hello!
Actually I sent people messages guiding them to the thread (when I thought it was real). I also sent a message, if memory serves, to the person's account.
Links please.
It doesn't prove he created the fake or was in cahoots with whomever did.
Well, since everyone is anonymous online, all it means is that he's the number one suspect. And unfortunately, there aren't any other suspects.
You simply dismiss Hannam because you think his affiliation (allegedly, since you've yet to establish this with any evidence) with the "Intelligent Design" camp means we can ignore whatever historical scholarship he's ever done.
So you still can't find his article defending the Fine-Tuning argument? What a pity.
It's terrible that you are unaware of ANY scholars that support your theory.
WTF are you talking about?
The truth is the truth, and we establish that by arguments based on evidence, not wishful thinking or innuendo.
Thanks for the laugh! That's pretty funny coming from someone like you!
You clearly misunderstood what we were talking about regarding internet archives
We? Do you have other personalities or something? Regardless, the conversation Garbage and I were having was about internet forums and message boards. Sorry.
Okay, you can start by providing a list of modern historical scholars who agree that the Christians destroyed a "daughter library" of the Great Library of Alexandria in the Serapeum around the time of the events covered by the film. Once you've given us their names, we can begin discussing the works in which they make those claims, and the evidence they present to make their case.
Sure, knock yourself out:
* Jean-Yves Empereur, a French Egyptologist, archaeologist, as well as the director of the Center for Alexandrian Studies and author of 'Alexandria Rediscovered'.
* Roy Macleod, Professor of History at the University of Sydney, educated at Harvard and Cambridge as well as the editor of 'The Library of Alexandria: Centre of Learning in the Ancient World'.
* Robert Barnes, Senior Lecturer in Classics at the Australian National University and one of the contributing writers in 'The Library of Alexandria: Centre of Learning in the Ancient World'.
* Bojana Mojsov, historian and archaeologist for the National Museum and Bibliotheca Alexandrina, as well as author of 'Alexandria Lost: From the advent of Christianity to the Arab conquest'.
* Justin Pollard, the Cambridge-educated historian and co-author of 'The Rise and Fall of Alexandria: Birthplace of the Modern World'.
* Howard Reid, also educated at Cambridge and co-author with Justin Pollard of 'The Rise and Fall of Alexandria: Birthplace of the Modern World'.
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After all that wrangling about how we can't prove who anyone is online (except Tim, we can prove is a Christian, somehow), and arguments about what is "fringe" and what isn't, and who is biased and who isn't, and how it isn't your job to support your own assertions with verifiable sources (somewhere out there is proof that I'm right, now go out and find it!)... you finally spit out the data you should have given at the start. Well, better late than never!
* Jean-Yves Empereur, a French Egyptologist, archaeologist, as well as the director of the Center for Alexandrian Studies and author of 'Alexandria Rediscovered'.
* Roy Macleod, Professor of History at the University of Sydney, educated at Harvard and Cambridge as well as the editor of 'The Library of Alexandria: Centre of Learning in the Ancient World'.
* Robert Barnes, Senior Lecturer in Classics at the Australian National University and one of the contributing writers in 'The Library of Alexandria: Centre of Learning in the Ancient World'.
* Bojana Mojsov, historian and archaeologist for the National Museum and Bibliotheca Alexandrina, as well as author of 'Alexandria Lost: From the advent of Christianity to the Arab conquest'.
* Justin Pollard, the Cambridge-educated historian and co-author of 'The Rise and Fall of Alexandria: Birthplace of the Modern World'.
* Howard Reid, also educated at Cambridge and co-author with Justin Pollard of 'The Rise and Fall of Alexandria: Birthplace of the Modern World'.
(in response to my challenge: "...a list of modern historical scholars who agree that the Christians destroyed a "daughter library" of the Great Library of Alexandria in the Serapeum around the time of the events covered by the film.")
That's the first substantial reply you've made in awhile. Kudos. Now was that so hard?
I presume, of course, those works you listed actually articulate this view. In other words, we don't have to call up each of these people to ask them their opinion that they might have spilled over coffee one day.
I'll leave it to you guys then, because I really don't have time for another research project before Christmas. Enjoy!
After all that wrangling about how we can't prove who anyone is online (except Tim, we can prove is a Christian, somehow), and arguments about what is "fringe" and what isn't, and who is biased and who isn't, and how it isn't your job to support your own assertions with verifiable sources (somewhere out there is proof that I'm right, now go out and find it!)... you finally spit out the data you should have given at the start.
The moronic child you're talking to is either too young or too clueless to realise this, but back in the early 1990s there was no World Wide Web. The internet consisted of a collection of interlinked bulletin boards, archives, FTP servers and usenet and listserv discussion groups. Back then I contributed to a range of usenet groups (eg soc.religion.christianity, sci.skeptic and alt.atheism etc) and subscribed to several academic listserv groups. You can still find many of my posts from back then via various usenet caches and archives. I'm often surprised to stumble across them myself on occasion. And back then virtually everyone on the net was an academic, a researcher or in the military, so we all used our real names - pseudonyms were considered childish and were against "netiquette". Ah, those were the days ...
Back then I still bothered debating Christians. This was before I realised most of them don't base their faith on anything rational and so can't be reasoned out of beliefs they didn't reason themselves into. Once I realised that I concentrated on refuting the irrational beliefs of supposed rationalists. I've had much more success there, though there are still many of them who are every bit as irrational and emotional in their beliefs as any fundie. Religion has no monopoly on pig-headed stupidity and hidebound ideological fundamentalism.
You know, I was actually going to reply to this in detail, pointing out all your mistakes of reasoning yet again, rejecting your a priori conclusions yet again, noting your knowing lies about me and your trolling slanders yet again but then I thought "Why the hell bother?" We've been over every single ones of these things at least a dozen times. You know what you're doing, so do I and no-one else cares. So I'm now tired of this silly game.
You're an idiot who has done just enough blundering around some history to come up with some totally wrong ideas. In other words, you're much like all the other internet weirdos. You're just more persistent in pretending you haven't had your butt kicked. Or too dumb to tell. I suspect it's a bit of both. Whatever it is, I don't care and I suspect absolutely no-one else does either. So it's into the ignore file with you. Enjoy your nonsense. Goodbye loon. *plonk*
If they made lots of hyped and blockbuster movies that portrayed atheists as the villains and Christians as the heroes and martyrs that got lavished praise on the internet, maybe you'd find more "defensive unbelievers" resulting. Ever think of that?
What's really at issue is that people not only "like" the movie because it entertains them or even that it confirms their ideology, but they also promote it as being "FACTUAL" and "ACCURATE" and use it to wave it in the face of people they don't like, as if it PROVES something. All it really does is prove their own prejudices and lack of discernment of sources.
I don't personally care too much if somebody makes a movie bashing Christianity. It's just one artist's opinion, and I'm free to agree or disagree. When tons of people start promoting that artistic vision as reality, and using it to generate hatred of Christianity, that's when I object. Sure, I can't stop people from hating, but at least I can try to set the record straight. Too many people promote the idea that the movie is accurate, but refuse to accept that they do so because of blinding personal bias.
The facts matter. So I'm not saying Christians should make inaccurate films to counter the inaccurate films of anti-Christians, I'm saying filmmakers should do their best to make their historically based films accurate and at the very least don't promote knowingly inaccurate material as accurate, and filmgoers should be honest about their own biases, and not accept what they see on screen (or in the pages of a best-seller for that matter) at face value, especially if it is telling them exactly what they want to hear.
Christians are persecuted in parts of the world to this very day. Just because Christians living in Western nations are part of the pampered majority doesn't mean honest stories (of "Christian as Victim") can't be told.
Again, the trouble is that Christian haters love to point to movies such as this and go "See? SEE??"
And if somebody criticizes them, well, then you're over-reacting because your fragile faith was threatened, and (my favorite) "It's just FICTION!!!!" (but clearly to these haters, it's "more than entertainment," it's gospel).
Christians are "defensive" in the same way ANY group of people are "defensive" when they're attacked (even if that "attack" is merely a rhetorical one in a piece presenting itself as entertainment). So they react similarly to stuff like this just as atheists do when an overtly "religious" (especially Christian) movie or book becomes popular.
Some do maintain this belief that Christians hold modern Western society in a vice-like grip of censorship and oppression, which makes it strange that these societies put up with these kinds of insults, and allow atheists to have their say, including protesting the stuff that they like.
That said, if Young Earth Creationists were known for loving and promoting Godzilla films for supporting their beliefs, you can bet that the forums would be full of atheists attacking the movies (and fans) for it. Note that I'm not saying evolutionists are atheists, I'm just making a point about symbolic protests. Far more virulent attacks on Christianity have been filmed, but unless they're popular or successful, it's unlikely that they'll be "protested."
My main problem is that films like these, try to pass for history, when in fact there's very little to be found. unfortunately the majority of people are largely ignorant of history or too bias to educate themselves, and we're left with a population who thinks Gladiator was fact. and when you throw in religion or politics that makes matters worse, as one side tends to be downplayed and the other exaggerated.
Christians are probably "so defensive" b/c every time a film is made with any Christianity in it the faith is made fun of and portrayed as bad as the Taliban...Other than "The Passion of The Christ" can you name one film that showed Christianity in a positive way? None that come to mind...