What next? Glorifying the SS + the Nazis? - The Last Samurai (2003) Discussion

[–] Gabe1972 10 years ago

Are you equating the Samurai hating changes with the SS and Nazis? Good God! What a ridiculous comparison and thought.

The Samurai hated the changes and hated the fact that they would no longer be the warrior elite. So what. You probably would have, as well.

The Nazis, and especially the SS, were a group of people that were demented and evil. The comparison between the two groups is almost offensive.

If you really believe this, you need to do a little more study of the history of the two groups.

The plural of mouse is mice. The plural of goose is geese. Why is the plural of moose not meese?

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[–] al666940-3 10 years ago

"The Nazis, and especially the SS, were a group of people that were demented and evil. The comparison between the two groups is almost offensive."

Is it? Ask anyone in China or Korea, especially any family member of those tortured/murdered/experimented upon by these "warriors" in WWII (whom very much claimed carried on the samurai tradition) and get back to me.

They were no better than the Nazis and SS (or the Soviets, you know, our "allies" back then). They simply were lucky they didn't happen to kill any Jews worth holding against them.

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[–] Gabe1972 10 years ago

The "warriors" in WWII that did terrible things to people have nothing to do with Samurai. These folks were just as demented as the Nazis and SS. How could you even think to make that comparison? The Samurai were Bushido in religion, while the sick SOBs in WWII followed the state religion of Shinto, which were two different things, although related.

If the samurai were alive and well in WWII, they would not have committed the atrocities that some of the Japanese did in WWII. Do you honestly think that the samurai would have supported Unit 731 or what happened in Nanking? Certainly Not! They were above this sort of thing.

You need to do a bit more research before you make another ridiculous comparison like this. What you said would be basically like saying Reagan was the American Stalin because he was a strong leader. Good God. What did they teach you in school?

The plural of mouse is mice. The plural of goose is geese. Why is the plural of moose not meese?

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[–] al666940-3 10 years ago

"If the samurai were alive and well in WWII, they would not have committed the atrocities that some of the Japanese did in WWII."
No, they would just test their swords on captives, or their own people (unarmed of course)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsujigiri

Aha, very honourable all right...

"Do you honestly think that the samurai would have supported Unit 731 or what happened in Nanking? "
YES.

"What you said would be basically like saying Reagan was the American Stalin because he was a strong leader."
What?!!!

You mean the same Reagan who:
- cut and run after Lebanon bombing of the marine quarters
- committed high treason by selling weapons to Iran under the table to illegally fund DEATH SQUADS in Central America?
- Allowed thousands of his own people to die of AIDS because to him they were sinners?
- was so far gone due to Alzheimer that he literally repeated verbatim in press conferences what Nancy whispered in his ear?

That Reagan? Good actor all right, he played his part. Stalin was NOT playing any role.

Get real.

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[–] Gabe1972 10 years ago

First of all, regarding Reagan...EVERY president has things that we can pick and choose and call them out on. There is no perfect leader. They all make mistakes. Some larger than others. That does not mean that he wasn't a powerful leader and a hell of a lot more powerful than our latest one. (I'm a democrat, so don't even try that argument. I just don't like weakness in our leaders.)

As for the Samurai being compared to the SS & Nazis...you can find all that you want about certain aspects of certain groups of certain Samurai. Overall, to compare them to the SS & Nazis is both disgusting and completely unrealistic. End of story. I'm getting bored with this because nothing I say will sway you and nothing you say will sway me. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

If that isn't good enough for you, then fine. You are right and I am wrong. The Samurai were disgusting bigots and killed everyone who wasn't good enough. They were the scum of the earth and I am glad they are extinct. The world is much better without these lowlifes. The thought of them continuing makes me vomit violently. They were the precursors to the Nazis and especially the SS. The Samurai regularly performed experiments on hapless people. They loved vivisections. They both lived by codes probably written by Pazuzu. Happy?

Case closed due to redundancy.

The plural of mouse is mice. The plural of goose is geese. Why is the plural of moose not meese?

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[–] al666940-3 10 years ago

That's a first (and I've posted for decades).

Why did you quit? You had plenty of material to retort, if only for the debating experience (I take it you never went to debate class, where you had to learn to debate for and against the exact same subject)

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[–] IndyCelt 10 years ago

What next? Glorifying the SS + the Nazis?

Maybe the US army's successful Indian genocide? Or the Brits introduction of concentration camps to war areas? Spanish Inquisition or general Western destruction of the Arabian and North African social systems? What a very ignorant categorization you make.

The Samurai hated the changes because they would no longer be the elite before whom everyone else cowered. They HATED the idea of equality.

Why glorify oppressors and assassins?

Show me an elite group which welcomes change, especially when their status is threatened.

Alternatively, read a bit of history. The Samurais' closest Western counterpart was probably the knights of old. Both pledged to protect their people, and lived by strict codes of honor and chivalry in a feudal system.

Not that that means all is sunshine--after all, the knights spent some centuries attacking the Middle East, with little provocation or success. But by the time of the portrayed rebellion, most Samurai knew that Japan had to modernize its military after the US threats to their security at the time.

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[–] FoolishCarriage 10 years ago

The Samurai hated the changes because they would no longer be the elite before whom everyone else cowered. They HATED the idea of equality.

Why glorify oppressors and assassins?

That's a bit of a silly statement without something (like source material) to back it up. Are you a history buff? An expert on samurai culture?

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[–] bigdaddyfatty 10 years ago

OMG..... shuuuuuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuupp.

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[–] Phydeaux50 10 years ago

Japan lost its way in the 20th C and became fascist, allied with other fascist countries. This movie should be compulsory viewing in Japan, to remind them that they once had honor but traded it for military dominance in the western mold. Given the choice between the two ways, the two Japans, I prefer the honorable, insular Japan.

I can't imagine why.

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[–] al666940-3 10 years ago

I take it you're a Westerner, right?

You might want to ask their neighbours (say China) what was actually like living next to these "honorable" warriors and ending up at the wrong end of their sword.

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[–] Phydeaux50 10 years ago

I'm Aussie, so as much cause to hate the Japanese as our good neighbours, China. Well, almost. OK, Imperial Japan only tried to invade my country with one of the world's biggest flotillas, and but for the USA we would have fallen. Then they bombed the *beep* out of us, killed our soldiers, killed civilians and shot a group of nurses in the back, execution style. Then they imprisoned our soldiers at Singapore, and then made them die horribly in Burma.

They never got close enough to do to our children what was done to Chinese children.

And they did that after they lost their way as a nation and tried to be like westerners (see Colonial Belgium et al). Today, they are our trading partners and allies. When Japan was first 'allowed' to send armed soldiers into combat, it was a small detachment which was charged with the task of protecting Australian engineers. That was in the 'Middle East'- where you are now?

So, I guess the shoe is on the other foot! :) I am a neighbour of Japan, an Asian in an Asian nation. And that's how it is, fyi. Insular Japan, allied to the west, is my preferred Japan.

I can't imagine why.

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[–] gasivodo 9 years ago

Conquer your puny little island? TSK, tsk... Easy.

Yours truly The Imperial Japanese Navy;-)

OnTop: Do better! mmkay?

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[–] Phydeaux50 9 years ago

Conquer your puny little island? TSK, tsk... Easy.

Yours truly The Imperial Japanese Navy;-)

That's not a Navy...

(points to US 7th Fleet)

...THAT"S a Navy!

Children aren't gay anymore. We may have lost more than we gained.

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[–] arihansson-1 9 years ago

Comparing the Samurai to Nazis and the SS is a faulty analogy. They supported a feudal system and ideology, and not a racist ideology aiming towards genocide. They were like the knights of old feudal Europe, not like the SS, and warriors, not assassins.

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[–] darthkarl66 9 years ago

I bet you are thrilling fun at parties and social gatherings.

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[–] RatedSophisticated1984 9 years ago

For all you saying the Samurai wasn't good people either, I don't know how you can say that. You're trying to make Japan's national heroes out to be bad guys or having some sinister hidden agendas, They were merely trying to preserve their traditional way of life and years before that Japan had it's borders closed to the outside world, They were a pretty isolated nation. The Imperialist Japanese were certainly not nice or good people, As the things they were doing in the world wars later, just ask China or Korea. It was funny how Imperialist Japan wanted to modernize and dabble in Western goods, yet in WWII, they wanted to rid Asia of western influence.

If you listened in the film, the English man tells Tom Cruise, that Katsumoto and the Samurai feel that Japan is changing too fast, not that they were in total opposition of change itself. He felt that they were becoming a nation selling out to the foreign powers and he feared that many Japanese would lose themselves to western culture and forsake their own traditions.. most of the Imperial Japanese like Omura seem to only be for the rich class.

I'm sure they were some "bad" samurai, you have good and bad in every part, it all depends on your views politically. Like how the west views Mao has an evil communist, but Chinese get offended when they hear this as they look at him as a hero.

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[–] davish_wulf-1 9 years ago

You fail in comparing Nazis with Samurais.

Go read some of the Bushido code and the Samurai way of life, also read about the importance of the Samurais in medieval Japan.

Then go and read how the US ordered Japan to open his doors to international trade, how they landed armored ships threatening Japanese people to sumbit to their will.

Quoting from wiki: "Perry’s primary goal was to force an end to Japan’s 220-year-old policy of isolation and to open Japanese ports to American trade, through the use of gunboat diplomacy if necessary"

Now add together the lost of old japanese culture, the proud Samurai spirit (remember proud native americans too?), the thousands of Samurais who lost their jobs, wandering randomly in the island. The fact they served the emperor to be discharged suddenly due to internal interests and international pressure, the cowardice of gun-powder vs honorable ways of the old sword.

Add all that up and perhaps their reasons were more honorable than "Nazis" and I didn't see Samurai practically decimating a race, instead they were the ones being persecuted, shamed and even killed.

Although the main actor portrays an american (perhaps one of Cruise's best roles), the movie while having a "american samurai", is against america's own arrogance both against native indians & the japanese themselves, ironic isn't it?

Hence the brilliance of the movie.

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