MovieChat Forums > Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) Discussion > Indiana Jones is NOT irrelevant to this ...

Indiana Jones is NOT irrelevant to this story, and the argument is missing the point

posted 7 years ago by HAL 9010 (907)
17 replies | jump to latest

The TV Show; "The Big Bang Theory" makes a point that Indiana Jones is fundamentally irrelevant to the story. This is because they misunderstand what the story is about

The story is a race. Indy is contracted by the US Government to get the Ark before the Nazi. And he did. The end.

Sure, the Nazi would find it eventually and all that without him there... but that is the characteristics of a race, for crying out laud. And if it was not a race, he was still contracted to get it before the Nazi... and he did exactly that, and possibly saved the world in the process. That TV show is dead wrong.

I would rather say that without him, the Nazi would first have found it a bit later, then secondly have found out about its deadly force by its destruction on the island (or a similar nazi research facility) and thirdly later somehow utilized this force in the the war and kill all the good in the world... how is that for "playing no role in the outcome"????

[–] AngularTurnip (3338) 7 years ago

He is irrelevant-- which is part of the genius of the movie. The sequels would turn Jones into the character you obviously want him to be: conventional. But for one movie only Spielberg, Lucas, and Kasdan gave us a hero unlike any we had seen before. And his ultimate irrelevancy is what makes him unique.

I think filmgoer James Berardinelli said it best: "You have to love a movie that is so devilishly clever as to make the hero's every effort, no matter how Herculean, irrelevant to the conclusion. Had Dr. Jones elected to go on an extended vacation to Mozambique and never have anything to do with the Ark of the Covenant, nothing would have changed. Jones doesn't save the day. In fact, he doesn't come close to rescuing it, unless one considers his having failed as being the key to success. (Although he does get the girl.) Yes, the movie ends with melting faces, but, underneath all of that liquefying flesh and exploding heads, there's an abundance of irony just waiting for the attentive movie-goer to unearth. When was the last time that an action hero has been so utterly, completely inconsequential as Indiana Jones?"

[–] HAL 9010 (907) 7 years ago

I appreciate the sentiment. But the same can be said about any race. If you do not attend someone else will... and so your attendance makes no difference. But does this makes you irrelevant? No, this is a stale argument as this is the inherent nature of a race. What matters is who finishes first. And in this case the god guys did, solely because of Indiana Jones. Pure and simple.

Had he not played a role in the outcome of the story, the Nazi would win the race and in the process have acces to a destructive force the new world knew nothing off. I would say this is pretty damn relevant.

Fact is, that the Nazi was digging in the right place more or less already. And without the medallion they would have hit the mark eventually. They even had a complete miniature map of the hidden city. The dig-side seemed to be the whole city and so it was merely a question of time.... which is why the US Government contacted Indiana in the first place.... in comes Indy and with his work, the Nazi get quicker acces to this Ark indeed.... but ultimately he manages to steal it back. Good guys win. World likely saved. The end.

That being said, I agree largely with the sentiments of your reply. His character and his part is wonderfully and paradoxically played. In a way just like most Supervillains are created by their Superheroes super deeds... poetic as he is, irrelevant he is not.

The sequels would turn Jones into the character you obviously want him to be

A side note perhaps, but Temple of Doom is chronologically before Raiders... so he was already the hero I seek ;-)

[–] AngularTurnip (3338) 7 years ago

But, Indy is just as much a skeptic and mercenary in "Raiders" as he was in "Temple." So whatever changes he underwent in the prequel were all but forgotten when "Raiders" rolled around.

[–] MaximRecoil (4855) 2 months ago

"He is irrelevant"

No, he very obviously isn't.

"which is part of the genius of the movie."

No, it isn't, since your premise is blatantly false.

"And his ultimate irrelevancy is what makes him unique."

No, it doesn't, since your "irrelevancy" premise is blatantly false.

"You have to love a movie that is so devilishly clever as to make the hero's every effort, no matter how Herculean, irrelevant to the conclusion."

James Berardinelli's premise is blatantly false too.

"Had Dr. Jones elected to go on an extended vacation to Mozambique and never have anything to do with the Ark of the Covenant, nothing would have changed."

Utter nonsense.

"When was the last time that an action hero has been so utterly, completely inconsequential as Indiana Jones?"

That question is based on a hilariously false premise and is therefore invalid.

Without Indiana Jones, the Ark is almost certainly eventually found by the Nazis, and potentially weaponized. With Jones, the Ark ends up on US soil in the custody of the US government, and therefore the potential for the Nazis to weaponize it (the concern over that potential being the primary reason for Jones' mission in the first place) is eliminated. Those are two drastically different outcomes, obviously, which makes Jones drastically relevant, obviously.

"Jones doesn't save the day. In fact, he doesn't come close to rescuing it"

Yes, he very obviously did "save the day," by eliminating the potential for the Nazis to weaponize the Ark.

[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7993) 7 years ago

I don't think the Ark would've allowed the Nazis to kill all the good and Jewish people. It would've just killed everyone in Germany who was a Nazi and then allowed the remaining Jewish people to store it somewhere it won't be found by bad people.

[–] HAL 9010 (907) 7 years ago

The Nazi would know of its destructive force by the mishap on the island (a lot of exploded and melted bodies would spike some interests and WTF inquiries) and so I would imagine they would make their precautions in handeling it and studying it. However, and unlike what we saw the US did with it, I am sure they would progress in a way to utilize this force somehow....

I think though you are wrong when you think it only killed bad people. Indiana says to close your eyes.... why did he say this? Again idk, but it worked and if it worked because of this... ergo it kills good guys too, provided the don't close their eyes... so perhaps all they had to do was to smuggle it to London and open it, and wait a few minutes...

[–] Karl Aksel (1498) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Rocksteady (25) 7 years ago

I agree with you. I've always said the same thing every time someone mentions that he's irrelevant.

Yeah, everyone died, but there is a good chance that the Nazis would get a hold of the ark again and study it more. Or maybe they had someone as knowledgeable as indy waiting to look it over. Then they would use the power correctly.

While indy did nothing to stop the nazis himself, he was the one who ultimately brought the ark back home. Everything he did in the movie made him able to be in position to take possession of the ark eventually.

[–] HAL 9010 (907) 7 years ago

They already had a huge submarine evil lair on this island. The Ark may have killed everyone there, but it was still on a military nazi facility. The Nazi would know of its destructive force by the mishap (a lot of exploded and melted bodies would spike some interests and WTF inquiries) and so I would imagine they would make their precautions in handeling it and studying it hense forth. However, and unlike what we saw the US did with it, I am sure they would progress in a way to utilize this force somehow....

This was an extremely important race. And Indiana Jones is the reason we won it.

[–] Rocksteady (25) 7 years ago

Exactly

[–] Karl Aksel (1498) 7 years ago

The force of the ark was not something you could study scientifically, it was supernatural - from God. And not just any which god, but the Jewish God. You saw how the ark burned away the swastika on the crate it was in, clearly telling us that it did not approve one bit of the people whose symbol that was. There was no way the nazis were going to get God on their side. Just how would that go down, anyway?

"Say, God, how come you let the nazis - the nemesis of your chosen people - conquer the world?"
"They had the ark. My hands were tied."

[–] HAL 9010 (907) 7 years ago

Truthfully we do not know anything about what is in the box. It is clearly an ancient magical force and we know from the other movies such forces exist in this universe. And not all are Judaic. To me it did not look like a God of good. Even the flying angles display daemon like characteristics. It doesn't matter imo. What we do know though is that this box holds immense power. And we also know Indy cries to keep their eyes shot in order to not to be vaporized.... why did he say this? Again idk, but it worked and if it worked because of this... ergo it means that it kills good guys too, provided they don't close their eyes... so truthfully all we know is that the box has destructive power and kills, unless you do not look upon its content.

In other words, perhaps all the Nazi had to do was to smuggle it to London and open it, and wait a few minutes while having their eyes closed... and if it only kills none-judaic followers ... the Nazi could use it to clean out a lot of Russia, Africa, Middel-east etc.

Indeed it did not like the Nazi symbol but knowing how vindictive the god of the old testaments was written, perhaps it just didn’t like anything except its own symbols... and London for one, are not old school Catholics or Judaic so who is to say what would really happen even in "christian" communities like England ? But again, if less effektive here, it would likely be effective in other places as mentioned above...

Scientifically we could start by putting different people of different religions and faiths in front of it just to see what would happen when it is opened... that would be one way to learn more about who and why it strikes.

To me it seems anyone who views its content will parish. But again, idk. But I am sure glad the Nazi never found out either.

[–] TaRaNRoD (1579) 7 years ago

"To me it seems anyone who views its content will parish."

Same here, because this is all that the movie shows us as "verified". I never went further because well everyone who had their eyes opened died while the two who closed them survived. It didn't give anything more than that to think around. Maybe it is possible that the ark would chose who to kill and who to let live, but nothing in the movies hints to that.

[–] HAL 9010 (907) 7 years ago

I agree with you. We often have a tendency to extrapolate when analyzing movies. And in many cases we just have to, to some degree. But the exercise is to try and stay as much within the rules of the movie itself and one way is to only examine the evidence presented and not add on to this ... a box that has magical killing power, created bible myths.. and therefore I for one am a bit reluctant to start inviting the Judaic God in to the equation when what we actually have is not quite so firm, imo... plus even Indy himself seem quite skeptical to the end.

[–] Steve1978 (67) 6 years ago

I agree. God would have slaughtered the Nazis if they had tried to use it again. That's why Indy should have let them keep the Ark. Imagine Hitler requesting an in-person demonstration of the Ark's power. Bye Bye Hitler!!

[–] MovieManCin2 (26342) 7 years ago

Well okay then.

😎

[–] MickyMac (3254) 6 years ago

Like Total Recall, Rekall Inc plays no part in the outcome of the story, with or without them he still would've gotten the message from himself telling him to go to Mars etc.