Well, thank you for being reasonable too, it's not what one expects from the Star Wars boards here! Which is why they become something of an echo chamber, reasonable people like me tend to stay away from the moviechat SW boards.
Which is why things like the complaint over "no training" gets repeated so many times, and the people who are repeating it stop thinking about how necessary Force training really is. I suspect that like Harry Potter, young Luke, young Leia, and young Rey were all using their Force powers without realizing it! It was the subconscious use of the Force that got Luke bullseyeing womp rats (and Anakin winning pod races), it was the Force that gave Leia a power over weak minds that made her an effective diplomat before she could legally drink, and presumably, subconscious Force use helped Rey survive on Jakku. Which is all speculation and assumption on my part, true, but Leia DID hear Luke speak through the Force without any training at all, and we saw Luke speak to Leia remotely and do a Force pull without being shown how. So I believe it's canonically (and fanonically) possible for some people to make use of the Force without training, and that the fanboy hive mind doesn't have great reasoning powers.
And yeah, I like Rey, I like Rey tremendously, and identify with her, and FYI I give Daisy Ridley more credit for that than the writers. The writing is all over the place, and the Big Reveal had me giggling out loud in the movie theater, but Ridley made all the goofy dialogue and goofier plot twists seem real and gripping. I've said that one of the basic reasons that the original trilogy was so great was that the casting was utterly fantastic, I think that of Daisy Ridley as Rey, as well.
And oh yeah... Rey spent a hell of a lot of time looking weak and pathetic. Every time she said she was waiting for her family or she thought she could turn Darth Emo to the light side... if that's not weak and pathetic, I don't know what is. Still, it helps me identify with her to some extent, I'm a big old bitch in some ways (dark side), and a goopy softy in others.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
Yeah, I noticed that too; the Star Wars board is a bit out of control compared to other discussions.
All the force powers you refer to can all be considered passive abilities; intuition and reflexes. There is a difference between a passive ability and an active ability. Everything in Star Wars told us that to use the force actively for things like mind trick, moving objects, lightsaber combat, etc required training (even if just a little bit). The force can help one augment skills that they learn how to do; but it does not provide the skills and powers; at least it did not until Rey's character came along. I do not agree that the others were using Force powers in any active conscious way like Rey does without training; they had force sensitivity which augmented the skills they were learning independently of the force. They could do those things without the force, but having the force made them learn it faster and made them better. Luke's bullseyeing womp rats, Anakin's pod racing, Leia's mental prowess, even her hearing Luke; are all passive force abilities. Luke's using the 'force pull' was after years of him knowing about the force; we can safely assume that he at least was aware of the ability prior to using it. This is not the case with Rey; we are specifically told throughout TFA that she is NOT aware of how she is doing the things she does. This violates the established cannon.
to be continued..
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Otter (24464)
5 years ago
I reject your theory of passive and active Force uses being the key to what is accessible to the untrained! We don't know enough about how the Force works to say what requires training and what does not, we can only speculate and theorize, which BTW I fully admitted to doing and you did not.
More below, because dude, you got verbose at a time when I was not free to reply.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
how can you reject the theory outright; what character besides Rey could use force pull, mind trick, lightsaber fight, etc all without training? A reflex or intiution are passive abilities; that is what passive means; they are not actively trying to do something. That is what the force sensitivity is; being able to perceive things faster than others. Luke and Anakin could not use an active force ability (such as moving things with the force) until they trained. You can't reject this because that is what is in the films. Rejecting it is asinine. We have 6 movies to compare TFA and Rey to; we know plenty enough about the force to know the rules of the hard magic system. TFA effectively changed it to a soft magic system. This is not speculating or theorizing; it is analyzing the data and coming to a conclusion based on the facts as they are. You are seemingly ignoring the rules of the previous 6 movies to get around the conundrum of the character you like broke those rules.
If you have time watch this video; Shad does a good job describing the issues with Rey and the sequel trilogy changing (breaking) the rules of the Star Wars magic system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGUph0dk_k
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Otter (24464)
5 years ago
Some people are trying very, very hard to say they know the "rules" of the Star Wars Force Magic system, just so they can say Rey broke them.
It is an argument I would take far more seriously, if there weren't such an obvious agenda behind it.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
There are 6 movies worth of evidence and data that show what the Magic system is. clearly Rey broke those rules; or if you don't like the term "broke the magic system" you can say for some reason or another she was not limited by the same rules that other characters were. It is just not true to say otherwise.
Pray tell, what is this obvious agenda? This is where I have a feeling I am going to stop taking you seriously.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
I do not knock someone for liking a character; but I cannot see how one identifies with such an obviously overpowered and 'spotlight' stealing character. As bad as the writing is, I was also not impressed with Daisy Ridley's performance. I think the delivery on many occasions was all wrong; for example; after 'bypassing the converter' she has this like annoyed look on her face with Han; when they first arrive on Maz's planet and Han gives her the blaster and is talking with her; she has a very odd look on her face; when she first meets BB-8 she is supposed to be annoyed with the droid but the facial expressions are too exaggerated; these are just a few from TFA that I can remember off the top of my head after not seeing it since 2015.
also she cannot act convincingly in her action scenes. Too much mouth a gap mixed with snarly bared teeth expressions. That is not how people look when fighting. Also she does not perform the action choregraphy well; this is especially glaring in TLJ; JJ at least hid he better.
No I do not agree; her waiting for her parents is not equivalent to her getting beat up by rando's in a bar like Luke. Or like being utterly and completely helpless against both Vader in ESB and the Emperor in ROTJ. Rey never once has such a moment. Her waiting for her parents and not accepting they aren't coming back is not an example of the character looking weak or pathetic. Looking weak or pathetic means a character is actually trying to do something and fails horribly and looks way over their head while doing it. Any time she takes any action she succeeds without much effort. Also thinking she could turn Darth Emo to the light side is not pathetic; Unless you also think Luke trying to turn Vader back to the light also made him look pathetic. I would actually argue that her trying to turn kylo back (and succeeding by the end) is yet another example of her being a little too noble and perfect. IMO it is the exact opposite of her looking weak.
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Otter (24464)
5 years ago
"I cannot see how one identifies with such an obviously overpowered and 'spotlight' stealing character."
Dude, loads people are fans of Superman and Q of Star Trek and other superheroes with massive power levels, they like them and identify with their personal struggles, being "overpowered" is not a problem when it comes to getting love from a fandom. And BTW another of my favorite characters is the Emperor Palpatine of the first six films, who is probably the single most powerful Force user in the whole shebang. So no, I don't have a problem with her power levels, and I'm going to politely refrain from speculating why some fanboys have a problem with Rey's abilities. As for "spotlight stealing", she's the central character, the protagonist! The spotlight is hers by right!
Instead, I'm going to say that appreciation of acting is as much subjective as it is objective, if not more so. If a viewer takes a dislike to a character because of something written into the script, then it's not likely that an actor will be able to change that viewer's mind. If a viewer dislikes a character who's intended to be likeable, then, well, everything the actor does is going to ring false.
You like Luke and identify with his gormlessness, I like Rey and identify with her struggles with loneliness and the Dark Side, we're not going to change each other's minds about this. It's an emotional reaction, bringing up plot points won't change anyone else's mind... or rather, their feelings. Because yes, this IS all about feelings, and logical arguments don't actually apply to liking or not liking someone.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
I do no think people are supposed to 'identify' with characters like superman; they are supposed to be more revered as god like ideals. I dislike the character superman because of how overpowered and morally unambiguous his plots often are, he really never has to really way what is right and wrong and is just always doing what it right. It is always just a little too clear for him. But the powerlevel of superman is established from the beginning of the story. His power level does not undermine what came before in the same way Rey does. Also, it is usually not so much an issue when the antagonist is overpowered, unless it is ridiculously overpowered. I very much do have a problem with her being able to just pull out every force power at the plot's convenience whenever she needs it and all without any establishing principle. I do not agree the spotlight was hers by rights, it would be if it was a new franchise and she was the original establishing character. That is not the case; the spot light still belonged to the OT characters until they passed the torch; that never really happened. Also the spotlight she has shouldn't come at the expense of other characters. In ANH Han had just as much spotlight as Luke. In TFA Rey had no equal.
I will admit because the character was bothering me almost immediately (as soon as she was able to speak droid with BB-8 I was getting annoyed) I did probably scrutinize the acting more; but the complaints I noticed are there. If I liked the character more I might not have noticed all the issues with her facial emoting and body language but it is there.
I do not identify with Luke, I identified with Han. I do not even particular like Luke, but I still recognize Luke as a well written protagonist. I neither identify with Rey or recognize anything about the character that is well written.
We don't have to change each others minds we can just discuss our different opinions and reasoning for our opinions
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Otter (24464)
5 years ago
FYI I had a massive crush on the movie Superman of the early 1980s, when played by Chris Reeve, although I don't care for the character much in other films or in the comics. And I simply adore Palpatine, the most powerful character in the originals and prequels! In any story where people have magical powers or superpowers, if I can accept that then I can't say the level of power is much of an issue for me.
Look, the use of the word "Overpowered" does rankle a bit with me, as if it were wrong for a new character to have more power than Luke, or for a female character to have so much power. Now, if only they'd come up with an explanation for her power level that didn't make me giggle out loud in the theater...
The whole Disney sequel was frustrating, so many things could have been so much better if they'd paid more attention to detail in the writing. Maybe someday I'll come to regard these movies as fondly as I do the prequels, which are bad films by any standard, but which contain a certain amount of good stuff, including, of course, the rise of the fabulous Palpatine. I like Rey so much, I do wish they'd given her a showcase worthy of her.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
The one point I will say with levels of power is, it has to be believable within the magic system and comparable with the levels of other characters or what has been demonstrated by them. Usually you can get away with the villain having a bit more but it still can't be to outrageous. Having clear limitations actually increases the tension. For example; the power level of the Emperor in TROS I thought was ridiculous and overpowered too.
I don't care if a character was more powerful than Luke, and I especially don't care if it is a female character. I know you are hinting at an agenda of sexism here, just like all Rey fans eventually do; so why don't you just come out and try making the claim so I can call out your ad hominem, I have a feeling you've been down this road before and know that it is not because Rey is a female she is criticized but that is the invisible strawman you want to argue with.
If Rey was a former student or had previously trained under a force user (maybe not sith or jedi) and was as powerful as she was I would have loved it. In order for me to accept her level of power at the start she needed to have a stated background in it; otherwise she is overpowered with no reason given. It is the "no reason" I have issue with more than the overpowered. Also the fact that there was never going to be a reason given was frustrating.
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Otter (24464)
5 years ago
No, there WAS a reason given for her high power levels, and it's a shame it was given badly.
And this fixation with her lack of training has had me rolling my eyes for years. Yes, in some cases I think there's an element of sexism, although I also think that since Film #7 missed out on having the obligatory father/mentor character present, they missed out on an important element of the "Hero's Journey" and some people feel the lack. But if one admits the possibility of using the Force without realizing it, as you already have, then one has to admit that there could be variation in Force access by the untrained. Someone like Rey is not only smarter than the dopey Luke, she'd need to use it more than he did, and for more things. He may not have been happy with the Larses, but he was well cared for and didn't need to fight or scavenge to stay alive.
Anyway, I've got to work for a while. Toodles.
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
But that reason (given in the last film) contradicts the rules in the other films. Both Luke and Anakin (who are 'conceptions' of the force) could not use active force abilities without training from a mentor. It does not and never mattered who Rey's parents are/where, it would not change the fact that she actively used force powers without training which is contradictory to the other 6 films.
Yes, I agree the lack of mentor (trainer) is what really hinders the character's arc; but that has literally nothing to do with sexism; which has always been a B.S. ad hominem non argument. The fact you are even suggesting it is a disingenuous tactic to put it out there. Rey would have been just as much a crappy character no matter the gender or species.
"But if one admits the possibility of using the Force without realizing it, as you already have, then one has to admit that there could be variation in Force access by the untrained. "
Do you not understand the difference between a passive ability and a actively used ability? A reflex or a intuition happens regardless of a person's effort. They do not have to 'try' to do something it just happens. This is what force sensitivity is in the Star Wars; it is why Luke could not do anything with the force other than have some quick reflexes when piloting (a skill he trained at). The force did not give him the ability, it just made him better at it.
"he was well cared for and didn't need to fight or scavenge to stay alive."
Scavengers are not the ones that have superior skills; skills are something that come from learning and getting taught. her being a scavenger does not by default mean she has other skills such as fighting, social skills, blaster shooting, force abilities she never attempted to use before, multi-lingual, technical mechanic prowess, stunt piloting cargo ships, etc. Her background does not match her skills and her ability to spontaneously learn force powers when she needs them ruined the series
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arflexit (2376)
5 years ago
As a side note: I am not trying to bite your head off. I respect fully that you liked and enjoyed the character; and I respect even more that you admit the weaknesses of the writing (and basically admit you like the character despite that weakness). I hope that you do not take my disagreement with you the wrong way. I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. I hope we can discuss this disagreement respectfully. If you feel that I am being a little to 'hard' on the topic let me know and I will try to adjust my tone a bit.
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