MovieChat Forums > Triumph des Willens (1935) Discussion > Don't think of the Nazis as 'evil'

Don't think of the Nazis as 'evil'

posted 18 years ago by cubanato00
48 replies | jump to latest

Before I get death threats let me clarify my statement. When we think of Nazis today we think of them as we do the neo-Nazis and other openly racist groups: bunch of hateful, ignorant, white trash hicks. The fact is that the Nazis were hateful, but they were far from ignorant. Many of them were highly cultured people: Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, etc. I'm sure if you were to meet one at a dinner party they'd be very charming. There is no way the German people, or any people for that matter would follow people that had "evil" personalities. While I was watching this film the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. Why? Because it's mesmerizing, and I'm saying this as a black man from Arkansas. I can see why so many followed these people. They didn't do it because of the hatred of the Jews, but instead because they had an excessive pride of their own culture and country. My point is we need to stop thinking of evil in terms of something we can spot a mile a way. True evil tricks you. True evil comes with a charisimatic smile.

[–] sharpshooter_45acp 18 years ago

Hannah Arendt had the same idea. She talked about 'the banality of evil' (referring to Adolf Eichmann in particular) in her book The Origins of Totalitarianism.

[–] ryan_marchuk 18 years ago

Youre not a black man from Arkansas.

[–] DrJuliusNo 17 years ago

He's not? What makes you so sure? Just because he is of a historically maligned race (and, living in Arkasas, is probably confronted by the evils of racism all the time) doesn't mean he can't be open-minded and observant, even towards those who would have hated him. The fact that he most likely dwells amidst a hoarde of racist attitudes probably means that he has a lot of insight into whatever ignorance can give rise to such ignorance and confusion (here it is a confusion of patriotism and a hatred of those percieved as active enemies of your nation).

"I have my orders from the Emperor himself, he's got something special planned for them."

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] omoo22 18 years ago

"My point is we need to stop thinking of evil in terms of something we can spot a mile a way. True evil tricks you. True evil comes with a charisimatic smile."

So why did you begin by saying "Don't think of the Nazis as 'evil'"?
You clearly don't know what your "point" is.

[–] SteamshipBooth 17 years ago

The man's point is that thinking of the Nazis as 'evil' is not an inaccurate judgement, but it is however an all too easy one. The casual repeated use of such a term can encourage complacency. It is a simplistic and ultimately somewhat meaningless term. By calling something evil we are merely seeking to distance ourselves from it, whereas we really need to be reminded as often as possible that evil is lurking in every human heart, and is never too far beneath the surface of even the most refined and highly developed civilization. Thinking of the Nazis as monsters may be comforting to our own self-image, but does little towards preventing a repetition of the circumstances that fostered their rise to power.

Of course we can all agree that those guys were as evil as they come, but I think this fellow's suggestion is very worthwhile. Finger-pointing is not particularly helpful. It is only by trying to set aside the instinctive revulsion we tend to feel whenever we see a swastika, and through empathetic effort seeking to understand what made people go along with the Nazi movement (or turn a blind eye), that we might arrive at some insight about human nature that could improve our behaviour as individuals and help lessen the chances of such a catastrophe happening again.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nomad-46 17 years ago

You will notice he was placed evil in quote marks in the title of this thread. He's not saying that the Nazis weren't evil, he's saying that most people's definition OF 'evil' is a simple, cardboard-cutout thing that disguises the real, hidden depths of actual evil, such that, when someone says "XYZ is evil," we only see the cardboard-cutout, and never recognize the real thing when it comes at us from another direction, or worse, we dismiss the claim of "evil" as just crazy talk, and miss seeing the real evil altogether even when it's standing right in front of us.

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[–] judd_clarke 18 years ago

The dictionary definition of evil is 'morally wrong or bad', so I think that - contrary to your argument - that probably does sum up what the nazis were all about.

[–] mikpii 17 years ago

Nice try. I'm not fooled by your argument.

[–] quattro747 17 years ago

God forgives all. People don't. Yet.

[–] farmerbrown-3 17 years ago

>>> God forgives all. People don't. Yet.

*Man* created *God* in his own image. Think about it. Therefore - you're wrong.

[–] Reverend-Flasher 17 years ago

Thank you for this insightful comment and I don't understand why other posts have attempted to argue with and ridicule you. Yes, the Nazis certainly were not "evil" in a cartoony way. Whether people agree or disagree with their actions is based on their own moral point of view. From the Nazi's own point of view, they were not evil or doing anything wrong. They passionately believed in their racial policies and nationalism as what was best for their country and people. I'm not trying to condone them or anything, but the whole history of world war II and the rise of the Third Reich must be looked at in the correct context of Germany in the early twentieth century and its social, economic, political and yes racial environments which led to the popularity of the Nazi party.
Your point is very true about confusing the Third Reich with current neo-nazi groups, the KKK, etc. These people in general ARE ignorant racists with no legitimate basis for their stance. An example is how white power groups can claim to be Christian. This comes in part from the notions put forth by Richard Wagner and Houston Stewart Chamberlain that Jesus Christ was not Jewish but Aryan. Hitler, contrary to belief, was openly opposed to any of the Judeo-Christian religions, but resisted any serious persecution of them to keep public opinion on his side. Lip-service was paid to the Catholic church, but only because Germany was allied with Italy and he didn't want to upset the Roman Cathlic church.
I have just read an excellent book concerning the Nuremberg trials which illustrates quite clearly the Nazi leaders' fervent conviction that they had a conquerer's right to dominate and oppress resistance; as well as a strong belief in loyalty to one's country and chain of command.
Also, while some ignorant groups may misappropriate Nazi symbolism, beliefs, policies etc for their own ends, National Socialism as a form of government (which it legitimately was) was really only relevant to Germany in the '20's and '30's.
In memory of Sam Peckinpah

[–] omoo22 17 years ago

So, we shouldn't think of the Nazis as "evil" because they had a "legitimate basis for their stance" and the "morality" of their actions is all a matter of opinion?
It's funny how often Nazi apologists/supporters cop out and say things like "I'm not trying to condone them or anything". Is it a disguise, or are you genuinely confused?

"Evil" may often be an inadequately simplistic concept when applied to reality, but it's important to be able to recognise it when you see it, particularly in the most obvious cases.

[–] RandlePM 17 years ago

Just out of interest,what is the name of the book you refered to?

[–] Reverend-Flasher 17 years ago

The book is: "Nuremberg: Evil On Trial" by James Owen

In memory of Sam Peckinpah

[–] vinlud 17 years ago

+1 Insightful

[–] Kinematico 17 years ago

IF the Nazis weren't evil then neither Stalin was, nor the KKK fanatics are/were evil neither the Holy Inquisition was evil. In short: Nothing could be considered "evil".

Then the word "evil" should be supressed from the dictionaries in every language spoken.

The acts commited by the Nazis shouldn't be relativized nor trivialized. To do that only lead us to dead ends and condemn all of us to repeat and suffer the same awful mistakes once again.

PS: I am not saying that "Every Nazi was evil", Surely "some" members of the Nazi party were just stupid or brainwashed fanatical people who followed a megalomaniac leader like sheeps without thinking too much on the consequences of their acts.

What I am saying is that the "Nazi-fascist" ideology is one of the best definitions of "evilness".
Any ideology that encourages racism in general and antisemitism in particular, xenophobia, homophobia, chauvinism, white supremacism, etc. is in my book an evil ideology. Nazism was all that, and more.

[–] WWu777 11 years ago

I don't think the Nazis can be classified as evil. They were wrong, but not necessarily evil. You see, to be evil, one has to knowingly do bad things to others and enjoy it. One has to knowing do wrong and delight in it. The Nazis did not knowingly do wrong. They felt that they were in the right.

For example, if one knowingly kills innocent people and enjoys it, then that person could be said to be evil. But the Nazis did not knowingly kill innocent people. They thought they were doing what's necessary to create a better and greater world. Many conquerors throughout history used the same logic. The US government does too. When the US government kills people during its imperialistic conquests, it considers those casualties necessary in their larger aims. They don't consider that to be evil, just necessary sacrifices. How is that any different than how the Nazis thought?

Are Alexander the Great, Napoleon, and the First Emperor of China also considered evil because they killed a lot of people? They may have been wrong. But does that make them evil?

In the ancient world, wars, conquests and executions were the norm. People did not have the luxury of sitting on their asses and getting fat while enjoying freedom like we do today. Our life today is an aberration, not the norm throughout history.

http://www.happierabroad.com - The Overseas Solution to Datelessness in America

[–] WWu777 11 years ago

Another thing to keep in mind. Hitler NEVER said he wanted to conquer the world or even Europe. Nowhere in his speeches or in Nazi articles does it mention anything about world conquest. Hitler always maintained that he wanted peace all along. In fact, in his Hitler Youth speech at the end of "Triumph of the Will" he even said that the Germans must be a "peace loving people".

Hitler always claimed that he did not want WWII. He even said that he was an artist who preferred creating rather than destroying. He kept asking Churchill for a peace agreement but Churchill refused. Why? Why did Churchill want war so badly? Why did Churchill beg FDR for help but could have just made peace with Hitler instead?

Hitler claimed that he invaded Poland to get the land back along the Danzig that Germany lost in WWI. After that, France and Britain declared war on Germany. Just because Hitler invaded one country to get land back, doesn't mean that he wanted WWII. Maybe he did and did not admit it publicly. Maybe he lied. I don't know. But he never publicly said he wanted a world war. That is a myth.

Read what the Nazis themselves said here:
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/

As you can see, they never said they wanted to take over the world. Not that that wasn't their intention, but they never said that publicly.

Nazi writer Joseph Goebbels said in an article about how to be a good dictator:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/angrif13.htm

"5. A dictator’s highest duty is social justice. If people sense that the dictator only represents a thin upper class that has nothing to do with them, they will see the dictator as a hateful enemy and quickly overthrown him."

They emphasized social justice. At least they did not only cater to the rich elite like the US does.

http://www.happierabroad.com - The Overseas Solution to Datelessness in America

[–] farmerbrown-3 17 years ago

Poster, the Nazis were evil. They were evil in a way that's beyond words. Your head *may* be in the right place. I hope so.

It's unclear.

>>> They didn't do it because of the hatred of the Jews...

Stop. Stop right there. Use your brain.

If people work you to death, torture you to death, kill your brothers, your sisters, your mother, your father, your friends, your neighbors, slaughter full communities of people "like" you and then in the end - the result is a Holocaust of about 6 million others like you, dead - does it really matter if somebody 60 some years later says something like "They didn't really hate you - they just had an excessive pride..."

>>> I'm saying this as a black man from Arkansas

So - racists in the South (and elsewhere) don't really hate Black people??? They just suffer from "excessive pride"?

===

>>> True evil comes with a charisimatic smile.

Poorly phrased and misspelled - typical of your post.

If you - or anybody else wants to learn something - start at this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banality_of_Evil

And if you don't know who Eichmann - use this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

The "tower of babel" is not language - it's the tragic stupidity of human beings to pass judgment based on superficialities. We seem to fall into the same hole year after year, decade after decade, century after century, millennia after millennia...

Empathy my brother.

[–] vostrikov_115 17 years ago

What I think:
There is no good or evil in History. It all depends on one's own point of view.

I am NOT saying that I believe that what the Nazis did was correct, but they (or at least, some of them) did.

If they had won the war (and thank God they didn't) would we be discussing how evil the Nazis were, or how Adolf Hitler liberated and strengthened Germany?

AGAIN, I am NOT saying that I believe that what the Nazis did was correct, or morally right in any way.

And you are right, farmerbrown_3, they absolutely loathed the Jews. And the Jehovah's witnesses, and the Romanians, and the communists, and the socialists, and the handicapped, and the homosexuals, etc.
However, I think that most of this hatred generated from the need of having a scapegoat, or in this case, a herd of them. Hitler led, and others followed blindly, looking for the light at the end of the tunnel that never came.

And although I understand the point that is being made by saying that evil comes with a charismatic face, the people that follow that particular "evil" wouldn't think of themselves as evil, would they? They'd think, "Hey, this guy sympathizes with us, he seems to know what to do to get us out of this mess, let's follow him!"
In other words, they'd feel that the rest of the world was against them, which in the case of WWII, would make the Allies "evil."

Which brings me back to the point I started off with:
There is no good or evil in History. It all depends on one's own point of view.

The "tower of babel" is not language - it's the tragic stupidity of human beings to pass judgment...

Nicely phrased.
Using that same quote, I think that it denotes that this thread is rather pointless: There are those who will judge the Nazis as a whole as evil; those who will claim that only a few of the Nazis were evil, while the rest had no choice; or those who will not take a standpoint at all and see it from a completely neutral view; or ________________.
(add your own view)
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Stepping off from the Podium of (Attempted) Neutrality, I'd have to say that the Nazis have to answer for countless heinous and revolting crimes against humanity. Those who were truly responsible for the whole movement did not receive just punishment, for what kind of earthly retribution is there that can possibly correspond with those abominations?
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Stepping back onto the Podium, were the Nazis evil? That question cannot be answered honestly.
Were they responsible for evil things? According to normal human morality, Yes.
Since they are responsible for evil things, does that make them evil? I suppose, but only if they agreed with the Final Solution.

Which brings me to my last point.
We cannot see the Nazis as a whole, because from that view, they were just a political party. But when we see them as individuals, I would say that only those who were conscientious of what they were doing and realized that they were causing pain and death to fellow human beings AND CONTINUED TO DO IT can be seen as evil.

But then again, they didn't see the aforementioned groups as humans, did they?
Their "excessive pride" for their own race caused them to see other races as inferior, or even "sub-human," in the case of the Jews.

Which makes this such a powerful quote:
[quote]The "tower of babel" is not language - it's the tragic stupidity of human beings to pass judgment based on superficialities. quote]

Although if I may add to that, I'd say that it's the tragic stupidity of humans to pass judgment at all.
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Thank you for putting up with my rant.

[–] saintmase 17 years ago

If someone wants to learn something don't refer them to wikipedia. That's the most idiotic thing ever.