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As Christianity fades, so does societal structures

posted a year ago by Ticketsplease (4024)
85 replies | jump to latest

1950s culture was the following:

Get married young
Have children whose parents are legally wed
Work Monday-Friday, keep Saturday free and make Sunday religious with a church visit and family meal

Society had a structure, basically built around Christian morals and obligations.

The 1960s saw the start of this being chipped away at.

Marriage started to decline, children born out of wedlock increased, particularly in the black community.

The weekend got chipped away at as well, as retail trading hours increased, eventually seeing Sunday trading becoming common place, pushing more people out of the home and into their job.

As working hours spread over basically a 7 day roster, families become more fragmented.

The Sunday gatherings become less doable.

The homosexuals further chipped away with the notion of marriage as well, saying that they can refine the union to have no biological structure at all.

Now marriage is not based on a biological union.

Weddings are just a big "let's make it official" party, often with offspring in attendance.

Add quick, no fault divorce to the proposition, and legacy rules like men having to pay "spousal support" to a cheating wife, and the proposition is less and less appealing, especially to men.

Now we have ended up with younger generations who either don't want to get married and have kids, or simply can't afford to, given the emphasis on economic growth instead of societal protectionism.

I argue that Christianity didn't create social confines, more like social structure, and strength, allowing people to blossom.

[–] RockAway (1657) a year ago

Do you think that the 1950’s were a good time for black people and women? The only group it was good to was straight white males. Of course it looks like paradise to straight white men.

[–] Furienna (3377) a year ago

You make it sound like no straight white man was unhappy, but that is hardly true either.

[–] RockAway (1657) a year ago

Did i say that? I dont think that.

[–] Kazak (2199) a year ago

Move over Christianity, there’s a new data driven sheriff in town.

[–] Catsaregods (136) a year ago

I'd much rather live in a secular society like Sweden and Denmark than in a religious country like Guatemala or Honduras.

If you want to move to a highly Christian nation, you could try Venezuela, Honduras, El Salvador or Guatemala, those are heavily Christian nations.

Even here in Latin America, the most prosperous nations are the most secular ones, such as Chile, Uruguay and Argentina.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

Sweden and Denmark are secular? 72% of Denmark's population are Lutheran. Sweden's is 60%. Argentina is not "prosperous", they've been suffering hyper inflation for years. Its debatable as to whether they are "most secular". Chile and Argentina are about 60% under the banner of Christianity, (Catholic+Christian) that doesn't exactly scream "secular" to me.
Brazil is hardly poor, it has the biggest economy and is the most religious of the South American nations but I suppose you excluded them because it didn't fit your narrative. Venezuela's poverty literally has nothing to do with its peoples' religious choices either.

[–] Catsaregods (136) a year ago

Sweden and Denmark are highly secular countries, just search for Pew Research surveys on this matter. Sweden is among the most atheistic nations on earth, 54% of Swedes don't believe in god.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

Of the 70% of the population who are members of the Church of Sweden, about 6% "are active churchgoers attending services at least once a month". Many of the Swedes that attend church do it due to traditional or cultural reasons, but are otherwise not practicing Christians. One poll found that "only 15% of members of the Church of Sweden say they believe in Jesus, and an equal number claim to be atheists".

According to a Eurobarometer Poll conducted in 2010, 28% of Danish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", 47% responded that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 24% responded that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force". Another poll, carried out in 2008, found that 25% of Danes believe Jesus is the son of God, and 18% believe he is a messenger of the God and saviour of the world but not son of God. A gallup report in 2009 found that only 19% of Danes consider religion to be an important part of their life.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

I think we can agree people of almost all nations that identify as Christians are not "practising" but that doesn't necessarily imply "secularity". The implication that Denmark and Sweden are "better off" because they are "secular nations" is misleading. There is still a cultural and traditional respect when it comes to Christian values in what are considered historically Christian nations, same thing in South America even though there is a shift in beliefs becoming secular. I don't disagree with the growth of atheism and secularity, what I disagree with was the insinuation from the person I was replying to was that these countries prosper "because of their secularity" via cherry-picking fallacy.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

The OP is implying that the general abandonment of Christian observance and the weakening of christian morals (by which he basically means LGBT acceptance and sexual culture) damages a nation. There's not really much reason to think this.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

"Not much reason to think this". Abortion, Marriage out of wedlock, Adultery, Divorce. Men using women's bathrooms, Men playing women's sport. Allowing children to choose gender reassignment surgery. Yeah, I am sure none of this has been detrimental to society. (facepalm)

[–] Furienna (3377) a year ago

True.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>Abortion

There's no reason to think that abortion being legal destabilises society. I get that you think it's morally wrong, but there's no reason to think it damages anything.

>Marriage out of wedlock

Do you mean sex out of wedlock? No reason to think this is harmful.

>Adultery

No reason to think adultery rates have increased with the decline of religiosity.

>Divorce

Should people be forced to remain in unhappy marriages?

The LGBT stuff is more contentious due to conflicting interests, but they're hardly remotely society ending.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

*children out of wedlock

No one said anything about "society ending", we're talking about the degradation of society.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

No reason to think children born out of wedlock is harmful either.

>No one said anything about "society ending", we're talking about the degradation of society.

There's no reason to think most of the things you mentioned are harmful. Or that they didn't happen under the 'good old' Christian days (adultery), and some taboos could be harmful (divorce being harder, LGBT people demonised)

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

"No reason to think children born out of wedlock is harmful either."

Yeah okay. Children born out of wedlock means its more likely for their Fathers to abandon them but I'm sure you think single parent families are good for society right? You are deluded.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>Yeah okay. Children born out of wedlock means its more likely for their Fathers to abandon them but I'm sure you think single parent families are good for society right?

I think they are neither directly good nor bad, and that the societal prejudices or oppressive legislation that would diminish their rate may well turn out to be worse than having them.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-single-parent-families?tab=map&time=2015

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

"societal prejudices or oppressive legislation that would diminish their rate may well turn out to be worse than having them."

Well you are wrong, even Barack Obama thinks your wrong, and not sure what relevance those stats have.

"The decline and low success rate of black marriages is crucial for study because many African Americans achieve a middle-class status through marriage and the likelihood of children growing up in poverty is TRIPLED for those in single-parent rather than two-parent homes."

Dixon, P (2009). "Marriage among African Americans: What does the research reveal?". Journal of African American Studies. 13 (1): 29–46. doi:10.1007/s12111-008-9062-5. S2CID 143539013.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>Well you are wrong, even Barack Obama thinks your wrong, and not sure what relevance those stats have.

People feeling trapped in relationships or marriages (especially if abusive) is bad. Gay people being persecuted, denied jobs, living spaces, service, education because of their sexuality is bad.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

You are straw manning now. If people lived more Godly lives, there would be no grounds for divorce. Indeed secular couples divorce at higher rates than "Evangelical Christians" not including CINOS like (Catholics). I am not sure what "gay persecution" has to do with what we are talking about. Indeed the term "gay persecution" could mean just about anything these days.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>You are straw manning now. If people lived more Godly lives, there would be no grounds for divorce.

There's no reason whatsoever to think this. The USA has a higher divorce rate than most of western europe, which is less religious: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/divorce-rates-by-country

>. Indeed secular couples divorce at higher rates than "Evangelical Christians" not including CINOS like (Catholics).

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/marital-status/

>I am not sure what "gay persecution" has to do with what we are talking about. Indeed the term "gay persecution" could mean just about anything these days.

It was part of what was accepted in the 1950s. Either by legal omission, or just social mores.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

Denial of "gay marriage" (oxymoronic term) does not equate to "gay persecution". Marriage has historically and always been God ordained communion between a man and a woman as defined in the Bible. It is sinful man that has tried to redefine marriage.

"There's no reason whatsoever to think this. The USA has a higher divorce rate than most of western europe, which is less religious: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/divorce-rates-by-country";

America is now one of the most "progressive" and therefore anti-Christian nations in the world. That is the whole point of this thread. lol. If you want to use a "Christian nation", use a better example than the USA.
I specifically said Evangelical Christians, ie those who are committed to the faith, not those who say they are on a survey.

A study by Harvard trained social researcher Shaunti Feldhahn in 2008 found that divorce rates amongst practising Christians, (not CINOS) were 27 to 50% lower than non-church goers. Not sure why this comes as surprising to you.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>Denial of "gay marriage" (oxymoronic term) does not equate to "gay persecution". Marriage has historically and always been God ordained communion between a man and a woman as defined in the Bible. It is sinful man that has tried to redefine marriage.

Marriage has been polygamy. Marriage has included arranged marriage of minors. Traditions vary. You don't get exclusive right to dictate the definition to people who are not christian.

>America is now one of the most "progressive" and therefore anti-Christian nations in the world. That is the whole point of this thread. lol. If you want to use a "Christian nation", use a better example than the USA.

The USA is a much more religious country, per demographics, than the UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Czechia, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium.

>A study by Harvard trained social researcher Shaunti Feldhahn in 2008 found that divorce rates amongst practising Christians, (not CINOS) were 27 to 50% lower than non-church goers. Not sure why this comes as surprising to you.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/marital-status/

Divorce rates here have HIGHER rates for Evangelical Christians vs. non-theists.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

"Divorce rates here have HIGHER rates for Evangelical Christians vs. non-theists."

The study I brought up addresses that issue. The statistic is misleading because people in the survey identified as protestant/evangelical for the sake of the survey. When I say "Evangelical Christian", I mean ones who are committed to the faith, by various factors, not Nominal Christians who identify as such on a survey based on superficial reasoning. (I did mention CINOs as being mostly Catholic but they also include Evangelical Protestants who aren't active either).

The study I brought up indeed demonstrates that those who are actually ACTIVE in the faith have lower divorce rates.

"The USA is a much more religious country, per demographics, than the UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Czechia, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium."

I wasn't talking about the USA being religious, I was talking about it being anti-Christian. Also, you are having your cake and eating it too. You say demographics can't be used to say Sweden and Denmark aren't secular but they can be used to say USA is more religious than most of western Europe.

Only 9% of all adult Americans hold to what is defined as a "Biblical worldview" while its only a meagre 0.5% for 18-23 year olds and this further supports the notion that Americans are indeed turning away from God. These statistics suggest that the USA is exceptionally far from being a "Christian" nation.

https://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/12-faithspirituality/252-barna-survey-examines-changes-in-worldview-among-christians-over-the-past-13-years

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>The study I brought up addresses that issue. The statistic is misleading because people in the survey identified as protestant/evangelical for the sake of the survey. When I say "Evangelical Christian", I mean ones who are committed to the faith, by various factors, not Nominal Christians who identify as such on a survey based on superficial reasoning.

This is just "no true scotsman" way of thinking. The data is what it is. Evangelical Christians also tend to be people who are committed.

>I wasn't talking about the USA being religious, I was talking about it being anti-Christian. Also, you are having your cake and eating it too. You say demographics can't be used to say Sweden and Denmark aren't secular but they can be used to say USA is more religious than most of western Europe.

There's no reason to think the USA is more anti-Christian than the European countries I mentioned. USA is demographically more Christian than most of Europe.

>Only 9% of all adult Americans hold to what is defined as a "Biblical worldview" while its only a meagre 0.5% for 18-23 year olds and this further supports the notion that Americans are indeed turning away from God. These statistics suggest that the USA is exceptionally far from being a "Christian" nation.

"Page not found" (from your link)

And I didn't call the USA a Christian nation, I said the population is more Christian than most of western europe. In addition, I bet less than 9% of Brits hold to a "biblical worldview".

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

That's a misuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
There is an unmentioned implication that we agree on what a Scotsman is. (Someone born or who lives in Scotland).

That is not the case with Christianity. You may take someone who identifies as a Christian at face-value, I do not. False conversion exists, its mentioned in the Bible in Matthew 7. We therefore don't agree on what being a Christian, means. A No True Scotsman, is a form of moving the goalposts. If we never agreed on where the goalposts were, then I can't be accused of moving them.

"There's no reason to think the USA is more anti-Christian than the European countries I mentioned. USA is demographically more Christian than most of Europe."

I never said it wasn't but its definitely trailblazing in unGodliness right now. OK, fair enough you didn't call USA a Christian nation but your implication was that divorce rates were higher in the USA despite being more "religious" than Europe. We are talking about Christianity, so we shouldn't really lump those terms together to avoid confusion.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090312095809/https://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/12-faithspirituality/252-barna-survey-examines-changes-in-worldview-among-christians-over-the-past-13-years

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>That is not the case with Christianity. You may take someone who identifies as a Christian at face-value, I do not. False conversion exists, its mentioned in the Bible in Matthew 7. We therefore don't agree on what being a Christian, means. A No True Scotsman, is a form of moving the goalposts. If we never agreed on where the goalposts were, then I can't be accused of moving them.

My assumption is that someone who identifies as an evangelical christian is likely more committed than someone who just says "CoE" (as they might here)

>I never said it wasn't but its definitely trailblazing in unGodliness right now. OK, fair enough you didn't call USA a Christian nation but your implication was that divorce rates were higher in the USA despite being more "religious" than Europe. We are talking about Christianity, so we shouldn't really lump those terms together to avoid confusion.

How is USA "trailblazing" in "ungodliness"? I would say "True christian" rates (per your definition) in the USA are higher than in most of western europe.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

"My assumption is that someone who identifies as an evangelical christian is likely more committed than someone who just says "CoE" (as they might here)"

Fair point and I somewhat agree but there are plenty in the Word of Faith movement and NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) who would also identify as "Evangelical" but are very clearly involved in false churches under false teachers that don't adhere to scripture. (speaking gibberish in tongues, false miracles, false healing, prosperity gospel etc etc)

Probably not worth getting into this tangent tbh.

"How is USA "trailblazing" in "ungodliness"?"

How isn't it? The USA is pushing the evil abortion, woke, lgbt plus and trans agendas. It is basically the hub of worldwide online porn. I could go on and on but Im sure you get the point.

If 9% of your population is genuinely Christian, (they just mentioned people who agreed with a "Biblical worldview"), I believe the actual number is much lower than that based on Matt 7, then said nation can hardly be deemed "Christian".

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>How isn't it? The USA is pushing the evil abortion, woke, lgbt plus and trans agendas. It is basically the hub of worldwide online porn. I could go on and on but Im sure you get the point.

Abortion being permitted is much more normalised in much of Europe than the USA. Same with trans-issues and sexual nudity is arguably less taboo in Europe, and has been for a while.

>If 9% of your population is genuinely Christian, (they just mentioned people who agreed with a "Biblical worldview"), I believe the actual number is much lower than that based on Matt 7, then said nation can hardly be deemed "Christian".

What I meant was you said that less than 9% of the USA are "genuinely Christian" in the sense that they have a "biblical worldview". I suspect the % in Western Europe is even lower than that.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

I am not arguing against "nudism". Not sure what that has to do with anything really. Western Europe, tends to follow the US's lead, specifically the UK. Abortion has been normalized and legalized virtually everywhere in the world but there is a huge cultural/media push in the US to say abortion is actually a "good thing".

"I suspect the % in Western Europe is even lower than that."

I wouldn't doubt that the % is lower, there are way more false Christian Churches in the US that is probably bolstering that number but I suspect the rates of genuine Christians is actually similar. I think the 0.5% of 18-23 year olds is actually closer to the actual figure than 9%. Either way, the point is, the USA is definitely not a Christian nation, its current laws are a reflection of that.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>I am not arguing against "nudism". Not sure what that has to do with anything really. Western Europe, tends to follow the US's lead, specifically the UK. Abortion has been normalized and legalized virtually everywhere in the world but there is a huge cultural/media push in the US to say abortion is actually a "good thing".

I see no reason to think that western Europe takes US lead on abortion here. Attitudes are much more relaxed. In the UK opposing abortion is political suicide. It has like 80%+ support. It's a total non-starter. I see no reason to think that acceptance of pornography is more of a thing in USA vs. western europe, nor even in trans-issues.

>I wouldn't doubt that the % is lower, there are way more false Christian Churches in the US that is probably bolstering that number but I suspect the rates of genuine Christians is actually similar.

I doubt it.

>I think the 0.5% of 18-23 year olds is actually closer to the actual figure than 9%. Either way, the point is, the USA is definitely not a Christian nation, its current laws are a reflection of that.

No, it isn't. But the amount of Christians practising per capita in some fashion is much higher in the USA than in UK, or Sweden or France.

[–] BillySlater (4282) a year ago

No one said anything about "acceptance of pornography". Porn is everywhere and just about every nation engages in it but 2/3 of the world's porn content is produced by the USA. I was merely pointing out that the USA being the porn capital of the world makes it abundantly clear that its clearly not a "Christian nation" amongst many other factors.

[–] Skavau (15993) a year ago

>No one said anything about "acceptance of pornography". Porn is everywhere and just about every nation engages in it but 2/3 of the world's porn content is produced by the USA.

USA also produces most notable video games, TV shows and films too. It's just a media juggernaut.