Do you support abortion if the woman was raped?
Yep. It's the moral thing to do.
shareNo, it's not the baby's fault his father is a creep.
That being said, it's up to the mother.
Is it really a "baby" though? 🤔
shareNo, it's a fetus. But it will be a baby.
shareIt's only a zygote!
You're being illogical. After all, sperm and eggs can be a baby too, but normally one egg is flushed from her body each month during menstruation and guys are regularly self-pleasuring themselves or finding ways not to get a women pregnant.
By your "logic", menstruation should never happen and men must refrain from all masturbation and sex unless he specifically intends to impregnate a woman.
I think Monty Python covered this: -
https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk
No, unfertilized sperm and eggs are clones and can sit in an incubator forever and won't do anything.
But a zygote has all the DNA necessary to be your living child one day. Only a dishonest person would say that doesn't have some special human significance.
And no, I'm not saying abortion is murder. I'm just saying it's a massive decision of ethics whether to abort it or not. It should not be done cavalierly.
Sperm and eggs have DNA, too! Catholic Church considers them to be potential life. Waste not!
Catholic Church aside, a zygote is only a clump of cells. Nature flushes it and embryos out about 50% of the time often before a woman knows it's there. Nature, or God if religion is your thing, gets rid of it.
Sperm and eggs aren't clones. They only carry different copies of some DNA.
Even saliva has DNA.
It's the woman's decision since it's HER body.
Uh, I never said it's not HER body and HER choice. I support abortion rights.
The Catholic Church is idiotic. Sperm cells only carry information, they are not actualized and capable of developing into a human being. And anybody who likes omelets knows the difference between a fertilized and unfertilized egg.
Again, we're talking about complete DNA in an embryo which has the capability of being an independent human. We're not talking about a spitwad.
As for nature flushing embryos, so? We all know about premature births. They are not abortions. A premature birth can survive at 22 weeks and doctors do try to save them.
DNA in spit is complete.
Sperm is living and carries more than information. Sperm's mission is to develop into a human. The Catholic Church isn't technically wrong although misguided.
Nature gets rid of fertilized eggs through miscarriage half the time usually because it's not capable of being an independent human. Too many serious genetic mistakes. Nature doesn't want something that deformed surviving.
2/3 abortions happen before 9 weeks; 9/10 before 12 weeks. There is 0 chance of survival outside the womb.
Only 1% abortions after 21 weeks and it's normally because the mother's life is in danger or the baby is severely deformed and unlikely to survive.
Only 28% survival rate for 22-week preemies. The point being, it's dependent on a woman's body. Government should stay out of it. The decision is the woman's.
'If guys got raped and pregnant, there'd be abortions available on every corner'.
-- Howard Stern
I agree with Stern. Men cry about protecting human life, then start wars and kill millions including babies and pregnant women. Such hypocrisy.
Uh, the DNA in your saliva is the same as the DNA in your brain. What's your point?
That has nothing to do with the fact that DNA is the complete coding for the individual.
It signifies a unique being different than any other.
And in this case it's human DNA and I think you're human, right?
So yes, lots of individuals die in the womb of natural causes. What does that have to do with the ethics of deciding to abort, and aborting?
And again, I support abortion rights. It's her decision.
I'm referring here to the ethics of her decision.
Do you save the life a dog when you can? Yes. Do you save the life of a human fetus when you can? Yes. Case closed. Abortions for the convenience of the mother are unethical.
Its unethical to force a woman to remain pregnant if she is raped.
Your comment is typical misogynistic nonsense of judging and condemning women. Punish HER for being rape.
A zygote isnt a child, just a clump of cells which can feel nothing and is flushed from the body all the time.
Each sperm's DNA is unique, too. Do you want to outlaw masturbation, contraception and all sex unless it's for procreation?
Again, a sperm cell or a spitwad do not have the built-in mechanisms to be a living breathing human child.
And you're technically a clump of cells. So? That's just semantics.
And I'm talking about the ethics of abortion here, not whether or not the father was a good guy.
" a sperm cell or a spitwad do not have the built-in mechanisms to be a living breathing human child."
Yes, they do.
Of course, you're not judging the rapist which is my point. You're only judging the woman. Typical misogynistic behavior.
Humans are more than a clump of cells. A zygote can't do math, write a book or exist outside a woman's body.
No, if I hock a loogie on the floor it ain't gonna grow into nothing. Don't be silly.
And of course I'm judging the rapist. He belongs in prison.
But the crimes of the father are not passed on down to the child. Stop blaming the child.
Humans are technically a clump of cells, if you want to be so crass about it.
The dog next door is a bother to me. He's made my life miserable for the past 6 months with his barking all night. Is it okay if I shoot him in the head?
If a zygote exits a woman's body, it won't grow into anything.
It's only a zygote.
A tree is a clump of cells. What's your point?
The dog is barking because of your horrible smell, therefore you're at fault. Gun nuts like to shoot and kill including schoolchildren. I'm sure you only want target practice.
Gun nuts. 🤣 I'm a middle class LGBT man and I live in Hollywood.
You're the one who thinks calling something a "clump of cells" means it's ethical to kill it. It's a silly analogy and it means nothing.
You were once a zygote. Do you enjoy being alive?
Okay, when you start comparing me to a mass murderer, you've lost the argument.
"Is it okay if I shoot him in the head?
You're the one fantasizing about shooting a dog in the head. Tsk, tsk! I hate to think what you would do to a crying baby that is keeping you up all night for 6 months.
"... when you start comparing me to a mass murderer"
That's your own guilty mind projecting your own feelings about yourself.
"LGBT man"
There are plenty of people who negatively judge you. You should know better in regard to judging others!
"You were once a zygote. Do you enjoy being alive?"
I would've been alive, anyway. I'm not a materialist. I basically believe we're consciousness, aka: spirit, with multiple human experiences aka: reincarnation.
If you're concerned, why not help pregnant women and babies? Plenty die around the world. Or have little future.
Interesting discussion. Best to agree to disagree.
I would've been alive, anyway. I'm not a materialist. I basically believe we're consciousness, aka: spirit, with multiple human experiences aka: reincarnation.
There you go. You do not believe the survival of the fetus is that being's one shot at existence. Many of us do. Thus we believe abortion should be avoided in all but the most extreme cases where pregnancy is a danger to the health of the mother.
And you know my point about the dog is that if we believe it's inhumane to kill a dog, we should give the same consideration to a human fetus. share
No, I just believe a dog has a right to talk, aka: bark as much as a human has a right to talk.
Killing a living dog isn't the same as a clump of tiny cells in a woman's body being flushed out.
No, I don't equate a tiny clump of cells to a living human being.
Evangelicals believe in eternal life, too. They also believe Heaven is better than life on Earth. Perhaps a better discussion is when does the spirit enter the body?
Okay, let me blunt.
I'm a rational atheist. I don't believe in spirits.
There is no scientific proof that a unique "zygote" has any more than one opportunity to enjoy its short life span in this universe. If nature doesn't "flush it out", give it a shot.
That means something to me.
And that's the ethical bottom line on this issue.
There is really something very wrong with you.
shareThere's a dog like that a couple of houses over from me. He has a very predictable pattern, so much so that I can accurately estimate what time it is when he wakes me in the morning. And he barks non-stop at nothing, basically just for the sake of barking. And yeah, I've briefly fantasized a few times that I'd like to go over there and bash his head in with a baseball bat. ;) Maybe this belongs on the, What Makes You Angry thread? :D
shareWhen I was a kid we had an old dog which went blind, and she would bark at everything and nothing. As much as I love dogs, they can also be the most annoying creatures on earth.
shareGod has the right to 'get rid' of it. We do not.
shareShut the fuck up, you amoral, murder supporting reprobate. You are completely ignorant.
shareNot to mention, the lifelong damage it does to the person when they find out they were conceived from rape. It really fucks up the person. Some turn out to be rapists themselves.
shareI know it would be difficult for the mother. But I think it still comes down to blaming the child for the actions of his/her father.
It's better to spare it a lifetime of misery knowing it was a product of rape.
Not to mention, rapist genes getting passed down to child. Cycle repeats.
Pfffffffft. It's fully on the individual whether he rapes or not. Even if there is some "rapist gene", it's the duty of the man to overcome it.
shareYou’re projecting your own feelings onto another person to decide for them about whether they’d chose to have life. By this logic, if the raped woman suffered a head injury in the attack rendering her permanently incompetent and disabled, doctors could end her existence as well to spare her the misery they perceive in the terrible situation.
shareHow can you say that is better than not being alive at all?
This is such a gray area to me. I hate sitting on the fence, but I honestly don't know which option is the better one.
I can't imagine living life knowing my father raped my mom and that is why I exist in this world. It's gotta mess up a child mentally and they end up with problems.
Not to mention, you always hear stories about rapists that they often have a father with a perverse background.
Meh, I wouldn't kill myself over it. Life goes on.
shareExamples?
share