MovieChat Forums > Politics > Trump says Ukraine 'started it'

Trump says Ukraine 'started it'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ8lVHbLwEQ

He also claimed Zelensky has only '4% support' nationwide which is also incorrect, as the President has still got a high approval rating amongst Ukrainians..

He also made some comments about the lack of elections currently in Ukraine, which while strictly correct, he then called Zelensky a "dictator", ironic, when one considers the 'elections' in Russia which constantly return dictator Putin to power, with his opponents either denied the chance to stand, dead or in prison.

My impression so far with regards to Ukraine is that Trump is entirely on Putin's side. Perhaps not entirely surprising as, at the end of the day, they are both bullies. As for holding talks on ending the war without even inviting one of the participants ... wtf?

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Zelensky was responsible for some of this, why is this so hard for you to admit other than you don't want to admit Trump's right because of your liberal detest for the man who you've never met and probably never will??

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Zelensky was responsible for some of this,


Such as?

y ou don't want to admit Trump's right


In this matters quoted above he is mostly wrong.

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Trump is an idiot and has to go

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Not Ukraine started it, Ukraine has always been the most corrupt country, where everybody was trying to put as much money into his own pockets as possible and nobody had time to organize anything political, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere on their own.
Ukraine has always cut a fee out of the pipelines going through Ukraine from Russia to Europe, but they frequently got so corrupt and greedy that they disturbed the trade between Russia and Europe, which is why Russia then built the Northstream piplelines around Ukraine that got sabotaged recently.

It's been the western world, led by the US, who poured so much money and weapons into Ukraine, that despite all the corruption there was still enough left to generate a military threat to Russia.
This has started some 15 years ago under Obama, has continued unchanged during Trumps first term and under Biden and if the US is now pulling the rug, the ones suffering is the people of Ukraine who get partially taken over by Russian government.

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A lot of truth in this. If anything, much of the blame for this goes to the reckless foreign policies of the United States and EU member states, in addition to the staggering corruption of the MIC and NGOs involved.

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It is certainly true that corruption has been an issue in Ukraine, one reason why its accession to the EU has been unsuccessful. But I'd rather live there than under Putin's even more corrupt, criminal dictatorship.

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And that's exactly why all of it is the fault of the western world.
First arming far right groups in Ukraine to the teeth until Russia saw a threat they couldn't accept any longer and now that they realize they can't win the war (just like the couldn't win Vietnam or Afghanistan) the US is pulling the rug leaving eastern Ukraine to the Russians.

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First arming far right groups in Ukraine to the teeth until Russia saw a threat

Congratulations. You are the first person I know who actually swallows Putin's reasons for his
naked aggression in expanding the Russian empire.

now that they realize they can't win the war (just like the couldn't win Vietnam or Afghanistan)


You know that the US aren't actually fighting a war, let alone for themselves - right?

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"You know that the US aren't actually fighting a war, let alone for themselves - right?"

As if I needed any proof for you talking nonsense.
How many veterans from Vietnam are to this day living in poverty in the US, because the military dumped them without proper treatment for their insuries?
https://www.va.gov/vetdata/Report.asp
How many US soldiers were in stationed in Afghanistan and how many got killed there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan

The fact that they haven't sent soldiers to Ukraine comes only from the problem that if one single US soldier had in Ukraine killed one single Russian soldier, Russia would have seen that as an attack from the US and would have retalliated directly at the US.

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Holy Mackinaw. We're truly into blind squirrel/nut territory.

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How many veterans from Vietnam are to this day living in poverty in the US, because the military dumped them without proper treatment for their insuries?


How relevant is this to a discussion about Ukraine?

The fact that they haven't sent soldiers to Ukraine


QED

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Where when or how in

"It's been the western world, led by the US, who poured so much money and weapons into Ukraine ..."

have you red me saying the US has sent soldiers?

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No one is on Putin's side. That's nothing but a perpetuation of the bullshit Russian collusion hoax. We don't give a shit about Putin or Russia. We just want American tax dollars to stop being shoveled down that blackhole. Period.

The only people who think Trump is a bully are leftist retards who've been conditioned to think that.

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think Trump is a bully


'Do what I want or I will hurt your country' sums up a lot of Trump's attitude to foreign affairs. That and isolating Ukraine while alienating or confusing long standing allies.

He may not have been guilty of collusion with Russia as originally charged but, in recent weeks as he cuddles up to Putin and freezes Zelensky out, that claim is increasingly hardly to dismiss.

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Trump is trying to level the playing field, so that we're not acting as the world police and paying for it too.

You fucking retards attribute anything he does with regards to Putin as "cuddling up". He knows how to deal with greedy assholes, you clearly do not.

Whereas Biden didn't do a fucking thing but embarrass us by falling asleep at every meeting.

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He also said he was a dictator because of the lack of elections, when Ukraine is at war and a big part of ukranians are refugees in other countries. You can not have elections when there is a war inside your own country.

Trump himself even tried to overturn an election, so this is more embarrassing than whatever Biden has done, and i am definetly not a fan of him.

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You mean an election where 15million voters suddenly disappeared?

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Even if that was somehow true, do you seriously think someone can just refuse to step down because they feel something is fishy?

You want to claim it was rigged, fine, but you should still step down when you have officially lost an election.
It is the absolute minimum you should expect from a western leader.

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Trump is trying to level the playing field,

By speaking at length to just side in the conflict?

with greedy assholes,

Like those who steal chunks of another country?

we're not acting as the world police

Just the world's real estate broker?

You fucking retards

Oh dear.

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One side? He's already met with Zelensky. Putin is the other side. You can't broker peace without treating with Putin. What the fuck are you smoking?

Yeah, like those who steal chunks of their former territory. You dummies keep pretending that Ukrainians and Russians aren't the same people.

Good job cutting my comment out of context. 99% of wars are over money, power and real estate. Real estate is always part of a peace deal.

You fucking retard.

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You can't broker peace without treating with Putin.

And you can't have meaningful peace talks without both sides at the table.

You dummies keep pretending that Ukrainians and Russians aren't the same people.

I'd rather the Ukrainians decide that for themselves, Putin thanks you anyway though.


You fucking retard.

Civil as always I see lol

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As a mediator, it helps to talk to both sides independently before negotiating peace between them.

The Urkainians are in no position to dictate terms.

Putin thanks me for what, not giving a shit? I don't. We've thrown away billions to weaken an enemy that was never a threat to us. China is the big fish, not Russia.

You people really are totally clueless. You're so emotionally invested in the narrative, you're blind to anything and everything else.

You fucking retard.

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it helps to talk to both sides independently before negotiating peace between them.

It hasn't helped too much so far. Western allies are confused and alienated. The sense is that Trump is not a independent or objective broker. For one thing he has discussed a number of concessions off his own bat, which Ukraine would not agree to and has worked to undermine Zelensky.

Putin thanks me for what, not giving a shit? I don't.

And yet... here you are.

You fucking retard.

You said that just before - and it wasn't big or clever then, either.

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Then they are free to work it out amongst themselves.

Ukraine is a terribly corrupt country. It's where the Bidens' money laundering happens. Where crackhead Hunter got his job with Burisma. Zelensky can go fuck himself.

You still do not seem to understand that I don't give a shit what happens there, as long as our tax dollars are no longer being funneled into that black hole. Period. I do not care. They can declare peace tomorrow and sing kumbaya or they can kill each other for another 20yrs. I. Do. Not. Care.

You're still retarded. I'm not trying to be clever.

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I don't give a shit what happens there,


And yet, here you are.

as long as our tax dollars are no longer being funneled into that black hole


How did isolationism work out for the US in the last two world wars?

Letting an aggressive and encouraged Putin sweep through to the gates of NATO in that part of Europe could be a expensive mistake.

You're still retarded. I'm not trying to be clever.

Just as well, as you would be failing.

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This ain't WWII.

What has being the world's police force done for the American people? We pay for it and the world still hates us.

Putin hasn't attacked a member of NATO.

You have no argument.

Still retarded.

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Putin hasn't attacked a member of NATO.


Yet. And standing strong and united will help deter that. Which is why Trump's undermining is not a good thing.

the world still hates us.


Something a bullying, unpredictable Trump does nothing to assuage.

Still retarded.


Still the best you can do?

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Trump is tired of the US footing the bill for it all. It's time for you fuckers to pony up.

The world already hates us. We should at least be able to save our money and resources. I mean, it is OUR money. We should decide where it's spent.

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[–] filmflaneur (3039) 36 minutes ago
Putin hasn't attacked a member of NATO.

Yet. And standing strong and united will help deter that. Which is why Trump's undermining is not a good thing.


Slippery slope fallacy.

the world still hates us.

Something a bullying, unpredictable Trump does nothing to assuage.


Poisoning the well fallacy.

Still retarded.

Still the best you can do?


Ad hominem fallacy.

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Slippery slope fallacy.

If so, it is still something NATO is largely designed to prevent. And Putin has been involved in a series of conflicts to expand his territory and influence already. It is reasonable to expect that, undeterred, he will keep on with it.
poisoning the well fallacy

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where someone preemptively presents negative information about an opponent to an audience, intending to discredit their argument before they even have a chance to present it. But Trump, as we know, has already presented his arguments, echoed and amplified by some on the politics board, indeed - which is why we are here.
Ad Hominem

"Still retarded" were not my words, but represent the folksy charm of CraigC Sorry about that.

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[–] filmflaneur (2999) 5 hours ago
I'd rather the Ukrainians decide that for themselves, Putin thanks you anyway though.


Such as in the 2010 election that resulted in Viktor Yanukovych becoming President for five years, the length of the term in that nation?

Oh, that's right I meant four years, because the democratically elected President was overthrown in the US/EU backed Maidan Revolution in 2014.

Maybe you're instead referring to the status quo where elections are frozen and Ukrainians have no capacity to decide for themselves? But that doesn't make much sense either.

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because the democratically elected President was overthrown in the US/EU backed Maidan Revolution in 2014.


You forgot to mention how this, also known as the Revolution of Dignity, was a popular ousting of pro-communist president President Yanukovych's after his decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia .Earlier that year the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement when Russia had pressured Ukraine to reject it. Euromaidan soon developed into the largest democratic mass movement in Europe since 1989. Glad to help.

Maybe you're instead referring to the status quo where elections are frozen and Ukrainians have no capacity to decide for themselves? But that doesn't make much sense either.


It makes perfect sense since the country is in the middle of a war and a state of emergency. The same happened in the UK during WW2 under Churchill..

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You didn't help much, and I'm starting to suspect your knowledge about that subject is limited to such as the Wikipedia snippet you pasted there. Rebutting your one second search result isn't worth my effort.

The point about Churchill is not only highly irrelevant to this circumstance, it's actually a detraction from the argument you're trying to make. Enabling the suspension of democratic processes because of wartime circumstances is not only questionable, it leads to tyranny by encouraging those in power to promote war so as to maintain that power. This is obvious to anyone familiar with history.

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as the Wikipedia snippet you pasted there.... Rebutting your one second search result isn't worth my effort.


That's a shame .. as is the lack of any alternative source from your side of things rebutting what I said. Unless you are presenting yourself as an authority of sorts? Meanwhile

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-ukraines-euromaidan-protests

https://www.weareukraine.info/special/how-russia-discredits-the-revolution-of-dignity/

Enabling the suspension of democratic processes because of wartime circumstances is not only questionable, it leads to tyranny by encouraging those in power to promote war so as to maintain that power.


Thank you for your opinion. In the case of Churchill and Zelensky at least, the tyranny was/is all on the other side.

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Thank you for your opinion. In the case of Churchill and Zelensky at least the tyranny was/is all on the other side.


Why am I not surprised that you left it at "my opinion," rather than finding sources that support your contention that democracy should be suppressed when a nation is at war? Other than that this is typically counted among the precept of fascists and dictators, is seems that this value you're pushing is the antithesis of the democratic ideal of a popular vote that this exchange is oriented around. Are you worried about coming off as a hypocrite?

The current government of Ukraine is the direct product of a foreign (US/EU) backed revolution that resulted in the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, no elections are being held currently, and the reason is because of a war that would almost certainly end if a different leader were elected through a popular vote. None of these are compatible with your democratic pretensions and are instead the acts of a tyrant.


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Why am I not surprised that you left it at "my opinion" ...

Because that is all you are offering,

The current government of Ukraine is the direct product of a foreign (US/EU) backed revolution [blah]


Thank you for your opinion.

Is it also your opinion that Churchill, who also held no elections during war time, was a tyrant too?

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Didn't we go over selectively cutting up sentences to serve your interests? You're being a bitch when you do that. Please don't.

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My interest, and yours is always served, the better the clearer things are. In the case of a sentence with two significant clauses, I simply reply cause by clause. That is not affectation, it is precision. I am sure you will understand.

You're being a bitch when you do that.


And don't call me a bitch. That's not nice. Soon you will be eligible for the CraigC Award for Civility. And that is one low bar.

I notice that my question about Churchill was not answered. tvfan knew the his answer:

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/67b5d0b88eba875e465463d4/Trump-says-Ukraine-started-it?reply=67b776e20ad42e0f88eb4708


... and no surprise there. I guess Trump ought to remove the Churchill bust he has lately installed back in the oval office. Bad taste fella!

Don't think that I haven't noticed this latest diversion in lieu of your own reply.

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Russian asset. Plain and simple.

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Flimflam, isn't this where you jump in and say, "unsourced opinion"?

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If HarlemEagle wants to call Trump a Russian asset, who am I to disagree?

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Oh dear. Whither your vaunted principles and rigid adherence to fact-based argument?

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HarlemEagle seems to be making a fact-based argument based on what we have all seen, so no worries there lol. Putin must be rubbing his hands.

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Fact based? You think one of the richest men in the US is in the pocket of a failed nation state that doesn't even have the military might to take its former territory? But won't even consider that Hunter Biden was selling access and getting kickbacks from Ukrainian energy companies? You really are retarded.

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You think one of the richest men in the US is in the pocket of a failed nation state ...


Yes I do, and that attitude towards Russia past and present shows that. I accept that there was no collusion case proven (back then) but am still interested to see what they have over him.


... that doesn't even have the military might to take its former territory?


You mean like when it annexed Crimea? I think this is something you just told me, elsewhere, that you 'don't care about'... but Russia's threat to the peace and security of Europe is not so easily dismissed as you would have us all believe.

But won't even consider that Hunter Biden was selling access and getting kickbacks from Ukrainian energy companies?


I just don't care about irrelevant old news. Sorry about that.

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Sorry but you're clinging to "old irrelevant news". There is absolutely nothing but your wishful thinking to suggest that Trump is in Putin's pocket. It's entirely illogical.

Yeah, how long have they been at war with Ukraine? Sorry but it's a Europe problem. I don't care about Russia invading its former Soviet territories. Not enough to send hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars when we're $36trillion in debt. Let me know when they invade an ally or member of NATO. NATO could crush Russia without any US involvement. Their military is an empty shell of what it used to be.

Irrelevant old news. It's proof that the previous president, that was in office just over a month ago, was actually in the pocket of a foreign power. How convenient.

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There is absolutely nothing but your wishful thinking to suggest that Trump is in Putin's pocket. It's entirely illogical.


And yet, there he is, alienating and confusing his best allies and undermining Ukraine with a worrying volte-face in foreign policy. Making America supine again lol.

it's a Europe problem.

As noted before, isolationism has been tried by the US before and ultimately failed then, too. How can America be great again if it turns its back on its friends and moral obligations?

Let me know when they invade an ally or member of NATO.

I hope I never have to. But as asked already, if there is no real threat from Putin really, then why is Trump telling Europe to increase its defence spending?

It's proof that the previous president, that was in office just over a month ago, was actually in the pocket of a foreign power.

Biden was the president not Hunter, and Biden was not caught kow-towing to Russia.

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Supine? Wanting to stop subsidizing the world is making us weak? Are you retarded? We're not talking isolationism but fair partnerships. Big difference.

This is exactly why I say you're too fucking dumb to argue with. It doesn't matter what I say, you cling to the predetermined narrative.

Who the fuck is kowtowing to Russia??? Stopping throwing money down the black hole of Ukraine is kowtowing to Russia? God what simplistic brains you people have. There is one simple message here, we're no longer going to fund the Ukraine's defense. We're not going to die for or against either side and we're not going to fund it. It's a losing proposition with no profit. This is not for or against either one, Ukraine or Russia. It's a, "y'all sort it out yourselves" kind of deal.

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Yes, "fair partnerships" ... in the defence against Russia's current and potential aggression. Thank you for you agreeing with me.

Who the fuck is kowtowing to Russia???

That old orange felon in the White House for now. Who do you think we have been talking of?

It's a losing proposition with no profit

The 'profit', as you put it, is the future security of Europe. As already pointed out, American isolationism has not worked in the past. I can perfectly well see and sympathise with notions that other countries should pay their share of mutual defence. But the issue is more that Trump is undermining the current security consensus and order by apparently being closer and more sympathetic to Putin than the country he threatens.

you're too fucking dumb to argue with

And yet, here you are. Again. Are you stalking me?

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Who the fuck is kowtowing to Russia???

That old orange felon in the White House for now.

Do you understand the difference between respect and weakness? … And no, I’m not referring to one of your usual cited or mechanical definitions.

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Yes I do; but thank you anyway. But if you are not referring to standard dictionary definitions then er, what are your own? And from whence do they spring?

I see that Murdoch's papers have turned on Agent Orange for his ongoing, disgraceful claims about Ukraine. The MAGret is spreading.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/it-s-personal-rupert-murdoch-s-american-newspapers-turn-against-trump-again/ar-AA1zvjh9?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=dd2db814acc042afad8962b615589dca&ei=68

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Yes I do

Apparently not. The fact that you cited propaganda is proof of that.

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Just because Murdoch's outlets justifiably say something negative about Agent Orange views on Ukraine it is suddenly 'propaganda' ?

What is the truth of Agent Orange's kow-towing and appeasement of Putin then and, moreover, where did you learn it? ... Oh sorry, I forgot.

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“He also claimed Zelensky has only '4% support' nationwide which is also incorrect, as the President has still got a high approval rating amongst Ukrainians..”

Indeed. Yes the actual current approval figures (that is, not the random numbers Don pulls from his ass) are:

Zelensky: 57%
Trump: 45%

But you won’t hear it from D-Boy because that would not fit the narrative one iota.

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But Ukraine did start it.

And why would a dictator responsible for destroying his country and the deaths of thousands, have an approval rating higher than 4%?

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But Ukraine did start it.

Where did you learn that idea?
And why would a dictator responsible for destroying his country and the deaths of thousands..

Oh dear. Elections were suspended in the UK for the duration of the last war. Was Churchill guilty of the same crimes?

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He's just parroting Tumps words verbatim as they are the word of god and cannot be refuted.

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That's rich coming from someone that regurgitates the fake news media about everything.

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And you believe in fake right wing narratives.

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And yet, right wing narratives have been correct 99% of the time.

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And just how do you know that?

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Hey, is it because it is a right wing narrative that right wing narratives have been correct 99% of the time?

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Was Churchill guilty of the same crimes?

Yes, and worse.

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And Hitler was justified?

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"Hitler, Hitler, Hitler!!!"

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It was a serious question following tv's revealing and somewhat disturbing claim, but thank you anyway.

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https://x.com/Palsvig/status/1892561520116023540/photo/1

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Thank you for the antisemitic contribution, just what we needed.

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